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Re: ICC valuation

George Eichelberger
 

It’s important to understand there are multiple ICC reports than can provide quite detailed history on a railroad’s rolling stock and fixed plant. I’ve uploaded four examples* to Google Drive (the uploaded page sequence is different) at:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1EFXR6UNGkJQDejfVXOaxvny5Sqv0IFJm?usp=sharing

Item 1 Period from 1916-7-1 to 27-12-3, Southern Railway Account 53, Freight Cars.
ICC Form 1742 shows the initial inventory as prepared from the Date of the ICC Valuation Order (VO) until the initial valuations was to have been completed 12-31-27. Even then, the work was not done. The 1742s were sent to the ICC to be approved. There was a lot of back-and-forth between the roads and the ICC to get to final valuations. The goal of the exercise was to establish a railroad cost basis to establish rates, ROI, etc, so potentially inflated values would skew later rate calculations. There were apparently court cases and the ICC did not finalize and accept the Southern valuations until about 1932.

Sheet 13 includes a page of “plain” box cars built in 1915.
The range of dates showing cars destroyed and “A&Bs” (Additions and Betterments) show changes from the time of Valuation Order 3 in 1916 and when the final report had to be submitted in 1927. The car series road numbers, descriptions, capy., car builder and cost are usually included. Individual car numbers may/may not be broken out but cars (in this example) that were destroyed before 1927 are excluded from the 1-1-1928 inventory at the bottom of the sheet. A&Bs are typically do not show individual car numbers.

The last column is complicated but potentially very useful. Each group of similar (but not necessarily from the same carbuilder or order) were assigned either a “VO3” or “ER” (Engineering Report) Group number. That number was used to identify cars from the group through out their service lives.

Sheet 7 (1 of 2 pages) covers the same valuation study period for a different group of cars that had valuations changed by A&Bs but many were destroyed before 1927. Note at the bottom, the number of cars from this group that were “Destroyed”, “Renewed” or “Transferred” are shown. “Renewed” may (!) refer to a complete rebuild but in many cases it refers to the application of a steel underframe (SUF) or new roof. Although individual car numbers may/may not be shown, subsequent change forms (following sheets) can give a picture of the entire series.

Sheet 37 is another example page with many A&Bs shown. “Converted” refers to a car that was changed to another ICC Account code. That shows as a double entry in the valuations, first as it left its original account (53 is revenue freight cars) and then as it was eneted in the new account, Account 57 is MoW equipment for example. Multiple changes were not uncommon.

GS&F Sheet 1 shows motor vehicles but it is a good example of changes were reflected in the valuations over the years. It is dated June 30, 1962. Updates were to be submitted on every June 30 and December 31. The initial, VO3, or later additions (shown on the change forms) then subsequent updates have to be reviewed to see a car/groups' entire history.

Note: I’ll admit this material only an intro and “dry as a bone” to explain but understood, and taken in their entirety, the ICC Valuation records are among the best information available. The copies in the SRHA archives were kept by the Southern with the originals sent to the ICC. All (most?) of them for every railroad reside in a warehouse in MD and can be reviewed.

Note 2: I’ve thought this would not be the most interesting presentation to many people but I’ve considered proposing the subject for a session at the CCB RPM. That’s still possible if there is enough interest??

Ike


Re: GRANDT LINE OIL DISTRIBUTOR

 

Fantastic. I spoke to them at Springfield last year and they said they had no firm plans to reintroduce the kit. It wasn't something they were sure they would bring back, or something along those lines. I am really excited to see it back on their page, as I have been scooping them up on eBay over the last few years whenever they are listed for reasonable prices. This is great news. 
--
Ben Sullivan
Brookeville, MD


Re: GRANDT LINE OIL DISTRIBUTOR

Charlie Duckworth
 

Bill
thanks for the information on this; I’d been searching Ebay for a couple years trying to score the kit.  Just ordered one. 
--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


Re: ICC valuation

Larry Goolsby
 

It's been a number of years since I was last in the valuation files, but I think I found at least one or two rolling stock photos of the roads I chase (ACL, SAL, AB&A/C) in the annual update files that railroads sent in to the ICC after the original valuations were done in the mid-teens. ICC required the updates to keep the valuations current as RRs bought, sold, altered, or destroyed the buildings, rolling equipment, etc. that were originally valued. The most interesting info in these updates (for ACL in the late 40s-early 50s) was lists of the former revenue roster numbers of freight and passenger equipment converted to MofW use. ACL documents rarely provided this car by car info as the ICC updates did. 

Larry Goolsby 


Re: Tichy wheel car

 

On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 07:08 PM, Steve Hile wrote:
The Rock island car is one of their all aluminum express boxcars from 1946, numbered in the series 20060-20069.  Originally natural aluminum, this one has since been painted in a shade of heavyweight passenger car green with yellowish gold lettering.  The medallion may have a red background or be just an outling by this time.
 
The trucks are not Allied Full Cushion, but rather Barber S-1-B trucks.
Yes, I should have looked more closely at the photo.
The 14 panel ( 7 & 7 ) sides are a dead giveaway. Sunshine did this car as a kit along with other aluminum cars.

And I have the RI kit in my stash.

Dan Smith
 


Re: GRANDT LINE OIL DISTRIBUTOR

Tony Thompson
 

I wrote:

Absolutely that is it. Good find, Scott. I wouldn't have said that the tanks were better, particularly, but that all the components are so nicely done. Just needs a warehouse building and you're done. Wish this had come back when I still needed an oil dealer. . .

Should have added that Grandt made a very nice warehouse, though a separate kit, and I think was INTENDED to go with the "oil dealer" kit. I see that same warehouse listed on the San Juan page. Great stuff.

Tony Thompson




Re: GRANDT LINE OIL DISTRIBUTOR

Tony Thompson
 

Scott Haycock wrote:

Look at Midwest Oil Dist. on this page:
 
 
Is this it?

Absolutely that is it. Good find, Scott. I wouldn't have said that the tanks were better, particularly, but that all the components are so nicely done. Just needs a warehouse building and you're done. Wish this had come back when I still needed an oil dealer. . .

Tony Thompson




Re: GRANDT LINE OIL DISTRIBUTOR

Douglas Harding
 

That is the kit. The photo looks like the same photo Grandt Line used. When I spoke with the San Juan people at the Narrow Gauge Convention in Sacramento, their intention was to return the kit to production. Lets hope this is true.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Scott H. Haycock
Sent: Thursday, April 1, 2021 10:03 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GRANDT LINE OIL DISTRIBUTOR

 

Look at Midwest Oil Dist. on this page:

 

 

Is this it?

Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantment

On 04/01/2021 8:42 PM WILLIAM PARDIE <pardiew001@...> wrote:

 

 

 

 

It ha been on acknowledged that the tanks in the Grandt line oil distributor kit were superior to other offerings.  They had long been 9ff the market.  A few years ago Grandt Line had a table at an O Scale convention.  I was told that the molds for the tanks had been broken and would not be replaced.

 

Subsequently I obtained a kit on E Bay.  I wanted some additional tanks so I continued to monitor the site.  A week ago I scored another kit.  When it came in I was surprised to find the instructions were labeled SAN JUAN DETAILS (FORMALLY GRANDT LINE.  This may mean that the kit is back on the market if anyone is interested.

 

Bill Pardie

 

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 


Re: GRANDT LINE OIL DISTRIBUTOR

Scott H. Haycock
 

Look at Midwest Oil Dist. on this page:
 
 
Is this it?

Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent

On 04/01/2021 8:42 PM WILLIAM PARDIE <pardiew001@...> wrote:
 
 
 
 
It ha been on acknowledged that the tanks in the Grandt line oil distributor kit were superior to other offerings.  They had long been 9ff the market.  A few years ago Grandt Line had a table at an O Scale convention.  I was told that the molds for the tanks had been broken and would not be replaced.
 
Subsequently I obtained a kit on E Bay.  I wanted some additional tanks so I continued to monitor the site.  A week ago I scored another kit.  When it came in I was surprised to find the instructions were labeled SAN JUAN DETAILS (FORMALLY GRANDT LINE.  This may mean that the kit is back on the market if anyone is interested.
 
Bill Pardie
 
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 


GRANDT LINE OIL DISTRIBUTOR

WILLIAM PARDIE
 



It ha been on acknowledged that the tanks in the Grandt line oil distributor kit were superior to other offerings.  They had long been 9ff the market.  A few years ago Grandt Line had a table at an O Scale convention.  I was told that the molds for the tanks had been broken and would not be replaced.

Subsequently I obtained a kit on E Bay.  I wanted some additional tanks so I continued to monitor the site.  A week ago I scored another kit.  When it came in I was surprised to find the instructions were labeled SAN JUAN DETAILS (FORMALLY GRANDT LINE.  This may mean that the kit is back on the market if anyone is interested.

Bill Pardie

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


Re: ICC valuation

Tony Thompson
 

Dave Bott wrote:

I now have a concrete example of what the ICC documentation for rolling stock would look like.  Tony Thompson mentioned the "53" section, and I dug around in my backlog of documents.  Here is what Section 53 looked like for the Southern Railway (attached PDF).  It is more detailed than I suggested, but less detailed than photographs and drawings as you might find in railroad-specific diagram books.

Yes, the detail pages must have been standard throughout, as they match what I have for SP,  EP&SW (not yet acquired by SP), and UP.

Tony Thompson




Re: Tichy wheel car

Steve and Barb Hile
 

I thought that I tried to reply to this one, but I don't see it on the website.  I've been having issues with Earthlink, again, this week.

The Rock island car is one of their all aluminum express boxcars from 1946, numbered in the series 20060-20069.  Originally natural aluminum, this one has since been painted in a shade of heavyweight passenger car green with yellowish gold lettering.  The medallion may have a red background or be just an outling by this time.

The trucks are not Allied Full Cushion, but rather Barber S-1-B trucks.  The only model of these trucks is the old Cape Line (now LaBelle Woodworking) cast metal truck.  It is there number HO-518.  See it at La Belle Woodworking Company (labellemodels.com)

Originally natural aluminum, this car has been painted a shade of heavyweight passenger car green with yellow gold lettering.Let'

Let's see if this one gets through.

Steve Hile

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Smith
Sent: Apr 1, 2021 8:18 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tichy wheel car

Responding to Tim's posting of photos, of note

in the first photo the RI boxcar has Allied full cushion trucks and that would make it an express car I believe.

Can't really make out the # on that car though.

Dan Smith


Re: ICC valuation

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Larry,

I now have a concrete example of what the ICC documentation for rolling stock would look like.  Tony Thompson mentioned the "53" section, and I dug around in my backlog of documents.  Here is what Section 53 looked like for the Southern Railway (attached PDF).  It is more detailed than I suggested, but less detailed than photographs and drawings as you might find in railroad-specific diagram books.

Hope this answers more definitively what you are interested in.

Best,

Dave

--
____________________________
David Bott, modeling the A&Y in '34


Re: Tichy wheel car

 

Responding to Tim's posting of photos, of note

in the first photo the RI boxcar has Allied full cushion trucks and that would make it an express car I believe.

Can't really make out the # on that car though.

Dan Smith


Re: Tichy wheel car

Tony Thompson
 

Guy Wilber wrote:

This may be the video in question:


Thanks, Guy, an interesting film and one I don’t think I’ve seen. And it includes a nice segment on wheel production. But the one I’m remembering was black and white.
Tony Thompson 


Re: Tichy wheel car

Guy Wilber
 

Tony Thompson wrote:

“Some have asked, off-list, for a citation of the SP video I mentioned. I don't have a link and don't know if it's on-line or not.”

This may be the video in question:


Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada 

,_._,_


Re: Tichy wheel car

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Of greater interest to me is the Rock Island aluminum express boxcar behind the wheel car.  It has been painted green, but looks quite a lot like it did in 1946.

Steve Hile

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor
Sent: Apr 1, 2021 3:44 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tichy wheel car


Some SP wheels...


On 3/30/2021 9:01 PM, Steve SANDIFER wrote:

These are contemporary photos, but most color ones are newer than this group.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jerry Michels
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 1:09 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tichy wheel car

 

The wheels are probably a little too uniformly rusty, but new wheels can get rusty if they have set around for a while.  If they are new, then the gunk is out.  If they are older sets, perhaps reused by the wreck crew, they could be gunky. Jerry Michels

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: NJI&I to Wabash at Pine - Part 3

Jack Mullen
 

Oops! Just caught a typo in my previous post. Original number series s/b 87000-87124, 125 cars.

Jack


Re: NJI&I to Wabash at Pine - Part 3

Jack Mullen
 


 On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 01:10 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
NJI&I 4233 appears to be a rebuilt War Emergency box car! When was this done?
Well spotted, Tim!  They were indeed. Wabash's Emergency boxcars 87000-87224 were built by Decatur shops in 1944. The in-house design differed from most other WE boxcars, in that the side sill was an angle placed with the vertical flange against the outer face of the side posts. I suspect that feature made it pretty straightforward to add steel sheathing.

According to Pat Wider's article in RPC19, 50 were converted and transferred to NJI&I  in Jan. 1961 the remainder by July 1962.

Jack Mullen


Re: Tichy wheel car

Tony Thompson
 

   Some have asked, off-list, for a citation of the SP video I mentioned. I don't have a link and don't know if it's on-line or not. But I did write a blog post on the topic of wheel production in SP's shop at Sacramento, and it includes some photos from the SP employee  magazine, _SP Bulletin_, one of which shows a workman rolling a wheel on its edge. That article was in the July 1953 _SP Bulletin_. Here's a link to the blog post if you're interested:


     Railroad car wheels were produced by several commercial companies and sold to railroads. But large railroads (like SP) with their own wheel foundry, assembled those wheels into wheelsets in their own shop, in this case Sacramento.

Tony Thompson



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