Date   

Re: GRANDT LINE OIL DISTRIBUTOR

John King
 

I think it was Campbell Scale Models that did the series of buildings based on Quincy, California.  They produced both vertical and horizontal oil tanks.

 

John King

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2021 2:09 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GRANDT LINE OIL DISTRIBUTOR

 

Bill Hirt wrote:

Wasn't these 2 kits based on the series of articles that Rail Model Journal published circa 1997 about oil distributors? I remember some of the articles had scale plans of oil distributor warehouses. There was also one article where the owners of the oil jobbers talked about the rail traffic into their business.

No, that's a quite different dealer. IIRC the Grandt Lines kit was already available well before that RMJ article. I also have a faint recollection that Grandt did several structures based on prototypes in Quincy, California, including this dealer. Can anyone confirm that?

 

Tony Thompson

 

 

 


Re: Southern Rwy 41'9" steel gondolas

O Fenton Wells
 

I would check Bob's photos at 606-845-3323 or Arnold Menke at ,waspman@...>
You should find them there
feton

On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 1:02 PM anthony wagner <anycw1@...> wrote:
Looked everywhere I could think of for photos of the subject cars - no luck. If anyone has a photo of SOU 17500-178197, 287000-287999, or 315700-315949 series gondolas circa 1940s or 50s that they would share I would be very appreciative. There were enough of them that they would not have been a rare car on a layout set in 1949. any help would be welcome. Thanks, Tony ,Wagner



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Re: GRANDT LINE OIL DISTRIBUTOR

Tony Thompson
 

Bill Hirt wrote:

Wasn't these 2 kits based on the series of articles that Rail Model Journal published circa 1997 about oil distributors? I remember some of the articles had scale plans of oil distributor warehouses. There was also one article where the owners of the oil jobbers talked about the rail traffic into their business.

No, that's a quite different dealer. IIRC the Grandt Lines kit was already available well before that RMJ article. I also have a faint recollection that Grandt did several structures based on prototypes in Quincy, California, including this dealer. Can anyone confirm that?

Tony Thompson




Re: Photo: Unloading Coal (Circa 1920)

John Mateyko
 

Bob,
The caption says it is a Philadelphia & Reading car.
Respectfully,
John Mateyko


Looking for plans for the SSW LCL long body caboose

Charlie Duckworth
 

I’ve got a laser/resin manufacturer interested in doing the Cotton Belt double sheathed LCL long body caboose.  If anyone has plans can you contact me?

 Thanks 
--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


Re: Photo: PRR Gondola 2785 (1916)

Jack Mullen
 

On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 09:34 AM, Dave Parker wrote:
I think it's a P&R car, number 27185
Sure is. Small lettering in the leftmost panel reads PHILADELPHIA AND READING RAILWAY CO.
The class, GHc is to the left of the car number.

Take a look at the bad rust and paint failure on the side sill, a common problem for early steel cars.

Jack Mullen


Southern Rwy 41'9" steel gondolas

anthony wagner
 

Looked everywhere I could think of for photos of the subject cars - no luck. If anyone has a photo of SOU 17500-178197, 287000-287999, or 315700-315949 series gondolas circa 1940s or 50s that they would share I would be very appreciative. There were enough of them that they would not have been a rare car on a layout set in 1949. any help would be welcome. Thanks, Tony ,Wagner


Re: Photo: PRR Gondola 2785 (1916)

akerboomk
 

And NYC flat x97x27(?) beyond it


--
Ken Akerboom


Re: Photo: PRR Gondola 2785 (1916)

Eric Hansmann
 

I agree that the gondola is P&R. Note the car class of GHc. This doesn’t mesh with any Pennsy class gondola.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Parker via groups.io
Sent: Friday, April 2, 2021 11:34 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Gondola 2785 (1916)

 

I think it's a P&R car, number 27185 (the 1 is hiding behind the stake).  Nothing lines up with it being a PRR car.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: Photo: PRR Gondola (1904)

Benjamin Hom
 

Bob Chaparro wrote:

"Photo: PRR Gondola (1904)

A photo from the Library Company of Philadelphia Digital Collections:

https://digital.librarycompany.org/islandora/object/digitool%3A128263?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=f1dcc61e901da5c495e6&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=3&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=24

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Class GR?"

Class GR.  A quick way to tell the two apart is the center panel.  If it's a square, it's Class GR (36 ft).  If it's a rectangle, it's Class GRa (40 ft).


Ben Hom





Re: Photo: PRR Gondola 2785 (1916)

Dave Parker
 

I think it's a P&R car, number 27185 (the 1 is hiding behind the stake).  Nothing lines up with it being a PRR car.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: Photo: Unloading Coal (Circa 1920)

Benjamin Hom
 

Bob Chaparro wrote:
"Photo: Unloading Coal (Circa 1920)

A photo from the Library Company of Philadelphia Digital Collections:

https://digital.librarycompany.org/islandora/object/digitool%3A129879?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=d8116fe3d1691a8c5f2a&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=9

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

I can’t identify the hopper car.

Link-Belt "D" loader."

Reading Class HTf.  More information from George Losse, including a nice clinic handout, at his blog:


Ben Hom


Photo: PRR Gondola 2785 (1916)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: PRR Gondola 2785 (1916)

A photo from the Library Company of Philadelphia Digital Collections:

https://digital.librarycompany.org/islandora/object/digitool%3A37814?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=4d6f868b6fe76befedd0&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=0

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Partial view. Class GHc?

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: PRR Gondola (1904)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: PRR Gondola (1904)

A photo from the Library Company of Philadelphia Digital Collections:

https://digital.librarycompany.org/islandora/object/digitool%3A128263?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=f1dcc61e901da5c495e6&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=3&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=24

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Class GR?

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: Unloading Coal (Circa 1920)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Unloading Coal (Circa 1920)

A photo from the Library Company of Philadelphia Digital Collections:

https://digital.librarycompany.org/islandora/object/digitool%3A129879?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=d8116fe3d1691a8c5f2a&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=9

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

I can’t identify the hopper car.

Link-Belt "D" loader.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: ICC valuation

mel perry
 

thank you eric, you saved me the comment

hindsight 20/20 would provide a larger
audience

;-)
mel perry

On Fri, Apr 2, 2021, 8:17 AM Eric Lombard <elombard@...> wrote:
George, You wrote: 
"Note 2: I’ve thought this would not be the most interesting presentation to many people but I’ve considered proposing the subject for a session at the CCB RPM. That’s still possible if there is enough interest??"

Count me as a very interested person! How about at a Hindsight 2020 session?

Eric Lombard
Homewood, IL

On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 9:13 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
It’s important to understand there are multiple ICC reports than can provide quite detailed history on a railroad’s rolling stock and fixed plant. I’ve uploaded four examples* to Google Drive (the uploaded page sequence is different) at:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1EFXR6UNGkJQDejfVXOaxvny5Sqv0IFJm?usp=sharing

Item 1 Period from 1916-7-1 to 27-12-3, Southern Railway Account 53, Freight Cars.
ICC Form 1742 shows the initial inventory as prepared from the Date of the ICC Valuation Order (VO) until the initial valuations was to have been completed 12-31-27. Even then, the work was not done. The 1742s were sent to the ICC to be approved. There was a lot of back-and-forth between the roads and the ICC to get to final valuations. The goal of the exercise was to establish a railroad cost basis to establish rates, ROI, etc, so potentially inflated values would skew later rate calculations. There were apparently court cases and the ICC did not finalize and accept the Southern valuations until about 1932.

Sheet 13 includes a page of “plain” box cars built in 1915.
The range of dates showing cars destroyed and “A&Bs” (Additions and Betterments) show changes from the time of Valuation Order 3 in 1916 and when the final report had to be submitted in 1927. The car series road numbers, descriptions, capy., car builder and cost are usually included. Individual car numbers may/may not be broken out but cars (in this example) that were destroyed before 1927 are excluded from the 1-1-1928 inventory at the bottom of the sheet. A&Bs are typically do not show individual car numbers.

The last column is complicated but potentially very useful. Each group of similar (but not necessarily from the same carbuilder or order) were assigned either a “VO3” or “ER” (Engineering Report) Group number. That number was used to identify cars from the group through out their service lives.

Sheet 7 (1 of 2 pages) covers the same valuation study period for a different group of cars that had valuations changed by A&Bs but many were destroyed before 1927. Note at the bottom, the number of cars from this group that were “Destroyed”, “Renewed” or “Transferred” are shown. “Renewed” may (!) refer to a complete rebuild but in many cases it refers to the application of a steel underframe (SUF) or new roof. Although individual car numbers may/may not be shown, subsequent change forms (following sheets) can give a picture of the entire series.

Sheet 37 is another example page with many A&Bs shown. “Converted” refers to a car that was changed to another ICC Account code. That shows as a double entry in the valuations, first as it left its original account (53 is revenue freight cars) and then as it was eneted in the new account, Account 57 is MoW equipment for example. Multiple changes were not uncommon.

GS&F Sheet 1 shows motor vehicles but it is a good example of changes were reflected in the valuations over the years. It is dated June 30, 1962. Updates were to be submitted on every June 30 and December 31. The initial, VO3, or later additions (shown on the change forms) then subsequent updates have to be reviewed to see a car/groups' entire history.

Note: I’ll admit this material only an intro and “dry as a bone” to explain but understood, and taken in their entirety, the ICC Valuation records are among the best information available. The copies in the SRHA archives were kept by the Southern with the originals sent to the ICC. All (most?) of them for every railroad reside in a warehouse in MD and can be reviewed.

Note 2: I’ve thought this would not be the most interesting presentation to many people but I’ve considered proposing the subject for a session at the CCB RPM. That’s still possible if there is enough interest??

Ike









Re: ICC valuation

Eric Lombard
 

George, You wrote: 
"Note 2: I’ve thought this would not be the most interesting presentation to many people but I’ve considered proposing the subject for a session at the CCB RPM. That’s still possible if there is enough interest??"

Count me as a very interested person! How about at a Hindsight 2020 session?

Eric Lombard
Homewood, IL


On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 9:13 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
It’s important to understand there are multiple ICC reports than can provide quite detailed history on a railroad’s rolling stock and fixed plant. I’ve uploaded four examples* to Google Drive (the uploaded page sequence is different) at:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1EFXR6UNGkJQDejfVXOaxvny5Sqv0IFJm?usp=sharing

Item 1 Period from 1916-7-1 to 27-12-3, Southern Railway Account 53, Freight Cars.
ICC Form 1742 shows the initial inventory as prepared from the Date of the ICC Valuation Order (VO) until the initial valuations was to have been completed 12-31-27. Even then, the work was not done. The 1742s were sent to the ICC to be approved. There was a lot of back-and-forth between the roads and the ICC to get to final valuations. The goal of the exercise was to establish a railroad cost basis to establish rates, ROI, etc, so potentially inflated values would skew later rate calculations. There were apparently court cases and the ICC did not finalize and accept the Southern valuations until about 1932.

Sheet 13 includes a page of “plain” box cars built in 1915.
The range of dates showing cars destroyed and “A&Bs” (Additions and Betterments) show changes from the time of Valuation Order 3 in 1916 and when the final report had to be submitted in 1927. The car series road numbers, descriptions, capy., car builder and cost are usually included. Individual car numbers may/may not be broken out but cars (in this example) that were destroyed before 1927 are excluded from the 1-1-1928 inventory at the bottom of the sheet. A&Bs are typically do not show individual car numbers.

The last column is complicated but potentially very useful. Each group of similar (but not necessarily from the same carbuilder or order) were assigned either a “VO3” or “ER” (Engineering Report) Group number. That number was used to identify cars from the group through out their service lives.

Sheet 7 (1 of 2 pages) covers the same valuation study period for a different group of cars that had valuations changed by A&Bs but many were destroyed before 1927. Note at the bottom, the number of cars from this group that were “Destroyed”, “Renewed” or “Transferred” are shown. “Renewed” may (!) refer to a complete rebuild but in many cases it refers to the application of a steel underframe (SUF) or new roof. Although individual car numbers may/may not be shown, subsequent change forms (following sheets) can give a picture of the entire series.

Sheet 37 is another example page with many A&Bs shown. “Converted” refers to a car that was changed to another ICC Account code. That shows as a double entry in the valuations, first as it left its original account (53 is revenue freight cars) and then as it was eneted in the new account, Account 57 is MoW equipment for example. Multiple changes were not uncommon.

GS&F Sheet 1 shows motor vehicles but it is a good example of changes were reflected in the valuations over the years. It is dated June 30, 1962. Updates were to be submitted on every June 30 and December 31. The initial, VO3, or later additions (shown on the change forms) then subsequent updates have to be reviewed to see a car/groups' entire history.

Note: I’ll admit this material only an intro and “dry as a bone” to explain but understood, and taken in their entirety, the ICC Valuation records are among the best information available. The copies in the SRHA archives were kept by the Southern with the originals sent to the ICC. All (most?) of them for every railroad reside in a warehouse in MD and can be reviewed.

Note 2: I’ve thought this would not be the most interesting presentation to many people but I’ve considered proposing the subject for a session at the CCB RPM. That’s still possible if there is enough interest??

Ike









Re: GRANDT LINE OIL DISTRIBUTOR

William Hirt
 

Wasn't these 2 kits based on the series of articles that Rail Model Journal published circa 1997 about oil distributors? I remember some of the articles had scale plans of oil distributor warehouses. There was also one article where the owners of the oil jobbers talked about the rail traffic into their business.

Bill Hirt


On 4/1/2021 11:49 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
I wrote:

Absolutely that is it. Good find, Scott. I wouldn't have said that the tanks were better, particularly, but that all the components are so nicely done. Just needs a warehouse building and you're done. Wish this had come back when I still needed an oil dealer. . .

Should have added that Grandt made a very nice warehouse, though a separate kit, and I think was INTENDED to go with the "oil dealer" kit. I see that same warehouse listed on the San Juan page. Great stuff.

Tony Thompson
_,_._,_


Re: ICC valuation

George Eichelberger
 

It’s important to understand there are multiple ICC reports than can provide quite detailed history on a railroad’s rolling stock and fixed plant. I’ve uploaded four examples* to Google Drive (the uploaded page sequence is different) at:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1EFXR6UNGkJQDejfVXOaxvny5Sqv0IFJm?usp=sharing

Item 1 Period from 1916-7-1 to 27-12-3, Southern Railway Account 53, Freight Cars.
ICC Form 1742 shows the initial inventory as prepared from the Date of the ICC Valuation Order (VO) until the initial valuations was to have been completed 12-31-27. Even then, the work was not done. The 1742s were sent to the ICC to be approved. There was a lot of back-and-forth between the roads and the ICC to get to final valuations. The goal of the exercise was to establish a railroad cost basis to establish rates, ROI, etc, so potentially inflated values would skew later rate calculations. There were apparently court cases and the ICC did not finalize and accept the Southern valuations until about 1932.

Sheet 13 includes a page of “plain” box cars built in 1915.
The range of dates showing cars destroyed and “A&Bs” (Additions and Betterments) show changes from the time of Valuation Order 3 in 1916 and when the final report had to be submitted in 1927. The car series road numbers, descriptions, capy., car builder and cost are usually included. Individual car numbers may/may not be broken out but cars (in this example) that were destroyed before 1927 are excluded from the 1-1-1928 inventory at the bottom of the sheet. A&Bs are typically do not show individual car numbers.

The last column is complicated but potentially very useful. Each group of similar (but not necessarily from the same carbuilder or order) were assigned either a “VO3” or “ER” (Engineering Report) Group number. That number was used to identify cars from the group through out their service lives.

Sheet 7 (1 of 2 pages) covers the same valuation study period for a different group of cars that had valuations changed by A&Bs but many were destroyed before 1927. Note at the bottom, the number of cars from this group that were “Destroyed”, “Renewed” or “Transferred” are shown. “Renewed” may (!) refer to a complete rebuild but in many cases it refers to the application of a steel underframe (SUF) or new roof. Although individual car numbers may/may not be shown, subsequent change forms (following sheets) can give a picture of the entire series.

Sheet 37 is another example page with many A&Bs shown. “Converted” refers to a car that was changed to another ICC Account code. That shows as a double entry in the valuations, first as it left its original account (53 is revenue freight cars) and then as it was eneted in the new account, Account 57 is MoW equipment for example. Multiple changes were not uncommon.

GS&F Sheet 1 shows motor vehicles but it is a good example of changes were reflected in the valuations over the years. It is dated June 30, 1962. Updates were to be submitted on every June 30 and December 31. The initial, VO3, or later additions (shown on the change forms) then subsequent updates have to be reviewed to see a car/groups' entire history.

Note: I’ll admit this material only an intro and “dry as a bone” to explain but understood, and taken in their entirety, the ICC Valuation records are among the best information available. The copies in the SRHA archives were kept by the Southern with the originals sent to the ICC. All (most?) of them for every railroad reside in a warehouse in MD and can be reviewed.

Note 2: I’ve thought this would not be the most interesting presentation to many people but I’ve considered proposing the subject for a session at the CCB RPM. That’s still possible if there is enough interest??

Ike


Re: GRANDT LINE OIL DISTRIBUTOR

 

Fantastic. I spoke to them at Springfield last year and they said they had no firm plans to reintroduce the kit. It wasn't something they were sure they would bring back, or something along those lines. I am really excited to see it back on their page, as I have been scooping them up on eBay over the last few years whenever they are listed for reasonable prices. This is great news. 
--
Ben Sullivan
Brookeville, MD

9521 - 9540 of 192618