Date   

Re: Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers

Robert J Miller CFA
 

Technically, they were known as Equipment Trusts. As such each trust would have a trustee, who was responsible for receiving and disbursing the interest payments on the bonds. Unlike a mortgage, the borrower typically did not have the right to pay the bonds off early, except in cases where damaged equipment was scrapped.

There were two common types of equipment trusts. Under one type the borrower acquired title to the equipment only after the full term of the bonds, which was normally 20 years, and the principal of the notes was paid in full. Under the second type the borrower acquired partial title after each year’s interest and a partial principal payment were made. Full title came at maturity of the bonds, again the typical term was 20 years. The equipment also had to be insured against loss.

I spent most of my working life managing investments for trusts and individuals. I recall buying an equipment trust bond for an account I managed, which held some locomotives acquired by the Santa Fe. A year or two into the life of the equipment trust one locomotive was wrecked and subsequently scrapped. We received a payment from the trustee of the equipment trust representing the value of the locomotive because the trust no longer owned the stated number of locomotives.

I can’t speak to the OPER’s accuracy, but the trustees of equipment trusts would have had serial numbers, etc. for everything each trust owned. Failure to keep adequate records and do audits could expose the trustee to significant financial liability.


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of gary laakso <vasa0vasa@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 9:00:47 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers
 

The use of equipment trusts to finance rolling stock and locomotives followed the Transportation Act of 1920 and the re-financing of existing mortgages to carve out rolling stock and locomotives from the mortgages.

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of gary laakso
Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 5:40 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers

 

The number of freight cars, passenger cars, work equipment and locomotive would have been reviewed by potential buyers of mortgage bonds since they were part of the collateral supporting the bonds along with the physical plant.  The need for cash really helped record keeping and reporting.  Plus, when collateral was destroyed, it had to be replaced and there were periodic reporting requirements for equipment under the mortgages.  I suspect that the mortgage agents visited the railroads to make sure that equipment pledged was in fact there. 

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of akerboomk
Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 5:24 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers

 

  1. They were only as accurate as the data the railroads supplied
  2. I have noted a couple times where an intermediate line was removed but the following line’s “CLASS” field (using “dittos”) wasn’t fixed for an issue or 2
    (but now I can’t seem to find the specific examples, so the example below is “made up”)

 

e.g.

-------------------

1-100     BOX, SPECIAL

101-200 BOX

201-300 “

--------------------

 

Became

-------------------

1-100     BOX, SPECIAL

201-300 “

--------------------

 

And then

-------------------

1-100     BOX, SPECIAL

201-300 BOX

--------------------

 

 

  1. Once they claimed there were 110 cars in series 12500-12599

 

But, as Ed said – it is remarkable the accuracy they had

(but then again, how would we know if they are wrong? – in particular the car counts)

 


--
Ken Akerboom


Photo: Union Carbide Covered Hopper 552

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Union Carbide Covered Hopper 552

Photos from the Pullman Library:

https://pullman-lib.smugmug.com/Railroad-U-Z/i-gsBLCHC/A

https://pullman-lib.smugmug.com/Railroad-U-Z/i-xrnPPtP/buy

Click on the photos twice for maximum enlargement.

Built 12-40.

Interesting inboard hatch cover arrangement.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: Zehners Brothers Packing Company Reefer 201

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Zehners Brothers Packing Company Reefer 201

Photo from the Pullman Library:

https://pullman-lib.smugmug.com/Railroad-U-Z/i-SXnwvpd/A

Click on the photo twice for maximum enlargement.

Zehners Brothers were based in Ohio.

Information from the Rutherford B. Hayes Presidential Library & Museums:

“Established in 1884 in Bellevue, Ohio, brothers John and Charles Zehner specialized in selling wholesale smoked and salted meats and lard. They incorporated the business in 1894, and expanded with a second facility in Toledo, Ohio, in 1906. They established a reputation for excellence in processing Dresden ham under the name Bell Vue Brand. After the closing of the Toledo plant in 1922, The Zehners modernized the Bellevue operation. Zehner’s Packing closed in 1971.”

Clover House may have a dry transfer set for this car:

https://cloverhouse.com/Cart/product_info.php?products_id=12126

Bob Chaparro

Moderator

Railway Bull Shippers Group

https://groups.io/g/RailwayBullShippersGroup


Re: C&NW 81226 36ft ds trussrod box in Mexico 1922

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Claus, I think that says Barley MIX, not MEX.  And the wood which appears to be nailed on?  I think the consigners we worried that the door would flex enough to let the load leak out at the bottom sides of the doors, so they improvised a “clamp” to hold it tight.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2021 3:36 PM
To: STMFC <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] C&NW 81226 36ft ds trussrod box in Mexico 1922

 

Hi List Members,

 

C&NW 81226 36ft ds trussrod box in Mexico 1922, Is there a temporary repair or other expedient on the lower part of the door? Perhaps to deal with a broken door mechanism? Note the chalk mark that might read "Barley Mex" but I could be wrong.

 

We also get partial views of boxcar SP 21580 and a ss C&NW boxcar.

 

 

Enjoy!

 

Claus Schlund


Re: Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers

George Eichelberger
 

I have jumped in on this topic before. Our concept of how “accurate” the ORERS misses the point of their intended use and how the railroads maintained the information in them.

They were NOT intended to be a roster of equipment! They were used to describe cars in interchange service. If a car was interchanged, it needed to be included in the ORER data. If a car was listed in the Register but it had already been stricken from the books of the owner IT DID NOT MATTER as that car could not be interchanged. In that case, the quantity of cars in that series would be incorrect. I expect there would be many errors for car series in the process of being scrapped or renumbered. Between the lead time needed to get the data for the next version on the Register, time to print and the time that copy was “current”, scrapping, renumbering or addition of new cars would continue.

Using Southern Railway System data, there are multiple internal memos discussing changes to be made in the next ORER. There are examples where a car series was shown in the ORER that did not exist. In one case, a group of rebuilt 40’ box cars were shown to have 70-T capy, trucks. In anticipation of the cars being placed in service, the ORER listing was modified before publication. Problem was, the cars were rebuilt with 50-T trucks so they could not be used in interchange service with those ORER road numbers.

Again, a Sou Rwy example, when a series of cars was due to be retired, the "quantity of cars” did not need to be maintained exactly. Cars would simply “disappear” from interchange service. Maintaining a “count down” of car quantities in the ORER served no business purpose.

So new cars could be used as soon as they were delivered, the entire series would be listed beforehand. Like scrapped cars, if that road number did not yet exist, there was no way the car could be interchanged so the “error” would be meaningless.

I agree ORERS are important documents but, while railfans may want to know how many cars are in series “X”, that was not the reference used to update ICC records or a railroad’s mechanical data or rosters.

Ike


Re: Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers

Larry Goolsby
 

One more point, especially regarding the SFRD question, is that the listings tended to reflect how cars were actually marked and not how the owning RR or company may have changed its name. Thus after mergers, cars still rolling with pre-merger names and reporting marks continued to be listed as such within the new company's entry. Not sure if this explains the SFRD situation though. 

Larry Goolsby 


Re: Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers

gary laakso
 

The use of equipment trusts to finance rolling stock and locomotives followed the Transportation Act of 1920 and the re-financing of existing mortgages to carve out rolling stock and locomotives from the mortgages.

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of gary laakso
Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 5:40 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers

 

The number of freight cars, passenger cars, work equipment and locomotive would have been reviewed by potential buyers of mortgage bonds since they were part of the collateral supporting the bonds along with the physical plant.  The need for cash really helped record keeping and reporting.  Plus, when collateral was destroyed, it had to be replaced and there were periodic reporting requirements for equipment under the mortgages.  I suspect that the mortgage agents visited the railroads to make sure that equipment pledged was in fact there. 

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of akerboomk
Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 5:24 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers

 

  1. They were only as accurate as the data the railroads supplied
  2. I have noted a couple times where an intermediate line was removed but the following line’s “CLASS” field (using “dittos”) wasn’t fixed for an issue or 2
    (but now I can’t seem to find the specific examples, so the example below is “made up”)

 

e.g.

-------------------

1-100     BOX, SPECIAL

101-200 BOX

201-300 “

--------------------

 

Became

-------------------

1-100     BOX, SPECIAL

201-300 “

--------------------

 

And then

-------------------

1-100     BOX, SPECIAL

201-300 BOX

--------------------

 

 

  1. Once they claimed there were 110 cars in series 12500-12599

 

But, as Ed said – it is remarkable the accuracy they had

(but then again, how would we know if they are wrong? – in particular the car counts)

 


--
Ken Akerboom


Re: Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers

gary laakso
 

The number of freight cars, passenger cars, work equipment and locomotive would have been reviewed by potential buyers of mortgage bonds since they were part of the collateral supporting the bonds along with the physical plant.  The need for cash really helped record keeping and reporting.  Plus, when collateral was destroyed, it had to be replaced and there were periodic reporting requirements for equipment under the mortgages.  I suspect that the mortgage agents visited the railroads to make sure that equipment pledged was in fact there. 

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of akerboomk
Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 5:24 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers

 

  1. They were only as accurate as the data the railroads supplied
  2. I have noted a couple times where an intermediate line was removed but the following line’s “CLASS” field (using “dittos”) wasn’t fixed for an issue or 2
    (but now I can’t seem to find the specific examples, so the example below is “made up”)

 

e.g.

-------------------

1-100     BOX, SPECIAL

101-200 BOX

201-300 “

--------------------

 

Became

-------------------

1-100     BOX, SPECIAL

201-300 “

--------------------

 

And then

-------------------

1-100     BOX, SPECIAL

201-300 BOX

--------------------

 

 

  1. Once they claimed there were 110 cars in series 12500-12599

 

But, as Ed said – it is remarkable the accuracy they had

(but then again, how would we know if they are wrong? – in particular the car counts)

 


--
Ken Akerboom


Re: Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers

akerboomk
 

1)    They were only as accurate as the data the railroads supplied

2)    I have noted a couple times where an intermediate line was removed but the following line’s “CLASS” field (using “dittos”) wasn’t fixed for an issue or 2
(but now I can’t seem to find the specific examples, so the example below is “made up”)

 

e.g.

-------------------

1-100     BOX, SPECIAL

101-200 BOX

201-300 “

--------------------

 

Became

-------------------

1-100     BOX, SPECIAL

201-300 “

--------------------

 

And then

-------------------

1-100     BOX, SPECIAL

201-300 BOX

--------------------

 

 

3)    Once they claimed there were 110 cars in series 12500-12599

 

But, as Ed said – it is remarkable the accuracy they had

(but then again, how would we know if they are wrong? – in particular the car counts)

 


--
Ken Akerboom


SL-SF Tank Car, Possible Red Caboose Prototype

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Friends,

This SL-SF tank car used to sit in Denver just short of the Union Station. I think it was being used as a stationary fuel tank, or perhaps for waste oil, as I saw it many times from the California Zephyr in the 1990s. 

As I was cleaning up this really bad image (shot through an Amtrak coach window), I realized that this is remarkably similar to the old Red Caboose/Intermountain welded tank car. There aren't many verified matches for this model, U.S. Army/DODX, UTLX and a few AC&F leasers with tank platforms.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


Re: Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Bob,

There certainly were errors, which is understandable given the complexity of the document and that it was issued quarterly (was it monthly in the early days?). The correctness also depends on the accuracy and completeness of the information provided by the railroads themselves. I was surprised at the paucity of information the Pacific Great Eastern provided, as noted in recent discussions here.

Also, some railroads listed their cabooses and other non-revenue cars, though most did not. Handy information if you model that particular railroad. Even in my October 1958 ORER, Clinchfield, Norfolk & Western and some others included lists and car numbers of work equipment. Other lines noted their passenger equipment.

The listing dates for some railroads, particularly shortlines, were often way earlier than an ORER's issue date. If there were no changes to report, then they may not have been required to send in an update, or perhaps just ignored such a bothersome requirement.

Once or twice I considered making an ORER page for my model railroad, not as a hoax, but as sort of a document for my vision of the whole line and all its non-modeled rolling stock. This could be fun.

Nothing wrong with Unverwood 5s. I learned typing on one in high school, and owned a used Underwood 5 all the way through college.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 7:58 PM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers

How accurate are the ORERs?

I seem to recall someone mentioning that occasionally the ORERs have listings of freight cars lumped together when these cars had different characteristics.

From my experience I am aware of one probably inconsequential error that was repeated for several years.

In August 1918, the United States Railway Administration announced that the SFRD (Despatch) would be under Federal control of the USRA effective January 1, 1919. The USRA then took overall control of SFRD (Despatch) cars.

The Santa Fe immediately reorganized Despatch, which had been a separate company, as the Santa Fe Refrigerator Department, an operating department of the railroad. This allowed Santa Fe a bit more control of the refrigerator cars and operations as allowed under the USRA regulations. SFRD then stood for Santa Fe Refrigerator Department.

As late as 1924 (six years after the “D” in SFRD stood for Department) the Official Railway Equipment Registers still listed SFRD reporting marks as Santa Fe Refrigerator DESPATCH. The Registers had not caught up with the official company change.

Not really a big deal.

But again, in terms of car listings, how accurate are the ORERs?

Can we assume that accuracy increased over time?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Model identification

nyc3001 .
 

I think it was made by Lambert. The 8k prototype is the same as the Tangent model. They also made an ICC-103 welded tank that was 10k gallons.

-Phil


Model identification

Steve SANDIFER
 

I have been gifted with a brass HO acid tank that appears to be very similar to the Tangent model. Can anyone identify the car and its maker please.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 


Re: SOU composite gon and second with a MISSOURI PACIFIC LINES herald in 1928

mopacfirst
 

A possible candidate for the MP Lines car is the 68001-70500 series, AC&F 1916, lot 8217, with 36' IL, height to top of side 9'-5" (relatively tall, to give it a cuft of 1738), archbar trucks.  The diagram shows the same number and spacing of side stakes, but the diagram shows some diagonal strapping that does not appear to be present on the car in the photo.  The stakes are noted as 1/4" pressed steel.

Ron Merrick


Re: Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers

Edward
 
Edited

Bob and all,

When you consider how all that detail and data were handled back then, the degree of ORER accuracy is barely short of miraculous.
It was all done in the "BC" era - before computers.
Everything was written up on paper reports, typed and kept in the road's roster files, often using the roads own car classification system.
These would be the resource for the ORER which were then retyped (no speedy copier machines back then), proofread, corrected and/or retyped if need be, and put into the ICC/AAR car classification system used by the ORER.

All this was in long lists that had to be reviewed and checked several times for accuracy before submission to the ORER for printing.
No telling how many times if there may have been a gap or error because some report had not completed the rounds, or something got lost., or was omitted, that an 'educated guess' likely was used, with a note to correct it for the next issue - if recalled.

Ah, yes! Typing all that up (with carbon copies) on a good old Underwood Model 5. . . .
Ed Bommer


Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers

Bob Chaparro
 

Accuracy Of The Official Railway Equipment Registers

How accurate are the ORERs?

I seem to recall someone mentioning that occasionally the ORERs have listings of freight cars lumped together when these cars had different characteristics.

From my experience I am aware of one probably inconsequential error that was repeated for several years.

In August 1918, the United States Railway Administration announced that the SFRD (Despatch) would be under Federal control of the USRA effective January 1, 1919. The USRA then took overall control of SFRD (Despatch) cars.

The Santa Fe immediately reorganized Despatch, which had been a separate company, as the Santa Fe Refrigerator Department, an operating department of the railroad. This allowed Santa Fe a bit more control of the refrigerator cars and operations as allowed under the USRA regulations. SFRD then stood for Santa Fe Refrigerator Department.

As late as 1924 (six years after the “D” in SFRD stood for Department) the Official Railway Equipment Registers still listed SFRD reporting marks as Santa Fe Refrigerator DESPATCH. The Registers had not caught up with the official company change.

Not really a big deal.

But again, in terms of car listings, how accurate are the ORERs?

Can we assume that accuracy increased over time?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


SOU composite gon and second with a MISSOURI PACIFIC LINES herald in 1928

David
 

The Southern car is not a USRA composite gon as one might expect, but a composite rebuild of Southern's first generation of all-steel gondolas.

David Thompson


Re: LS&I 1755 flat with wood load in 1929

Eric Hansmann
 

Possibly pulpwood.

 

The image description notes the following:

In addition to the ore industry, Cleveland-Cliffs Iron Company was also involved in the forest products and chemical industries. The company owned 330,000 acres of timberland on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.

 

The logs on the car seem to be special cut partial logs. This might be headed for a chemical plant to be brewed and broken down into other products.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Tuesday, May 4, 2021 2:29 PM
To: STMFC <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] LS&I 1755 flat with wood load in 1929

 

Hi List Members,

 

LS&I 1755 flat with wood load in 1929. Is this a pulpwood load? Note the primitive home-rolled 'end bulkheads' on the car

 

 

Enjoy!

 

Claus Schlund


Re: nice view of CM&StP composite gons carrying lumber loads in 1927

Robert J Miller CFA
 

Republic, MI is in the Upper Peninsula – west/southwest of Marquette, Michigan

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Tuesday, May 4, 2021 4:09 PM
To: STMFC <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] nice view of CM&StP composite gons carrying lumber loads in 1927

 

Hi List Members,

 

We get a nice view of CM&StP composite gons carrying lumber loads in 1927. The gon road number might be 309250. The structure sez we are in 'Republic', possibly in Michigan. I think there is a DSS&A boxcar on the siding on the right.

 

 

Enjoy!

 

Claus Schlund

 

 


Re: Munsing Paper Co twin hopper 78-3 in 1930

Robert J Miller CFA
 

Should be Munising Paper – not Munsing.

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Tuesday, May 4, 2021 3:55 PM
To: STMFC <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Munsing Paper Co twin hopper 78-3 in 1930

 

Hi List Members,

 

Munsing Paper Co twin hopper 78-3 in 1930. It appears to be identical to a PRR class GL hopper in its design.

 

 

Note the four-wheeled 'critter' locomotive that is pushing the car, only barely visible, operator looking at the camera.

 

I assume this car never left the plant? It perhaps just moved coal from the dock into the plant and never left the grounds?

 

Enjoy!

 

Claus Schlund

3881 - 3900 of 187908