Date   

Re: Southern #23300-23486 Boxcar Doors and Tack Boards #23300-23486

Ron Hildebrand <SteamFreight@...>
 

At 01:11 PM 5/3/2003 -0500, you wrote:
Folks,

I am posting this question for the second time to some lists. Unfortunately
I did not get any responses to the first request.

Can anyone offer a photo reference or advice on the correct door for these
cars in 1955?

The car numbers are:

23005
23168
23252
23399

And finally, what is the correct location for the door and end tack boards
for 1955? Should they be in the high or low position?
Allen ,

I posted this response to the second part of your question when you originally posed it on the SouthernModeler group in late April:
__________________________________________________________
Guy Wilber replied to a similar (but generic) question on the Steam
Era Freight Cars group a couple of months ago. In essence, before
1953, placard boards were to be "not less" than 4'-6" from the floor
of a box car. Effective in March '54, that rule was changed to lower
placard boards (the larger boards) and tack boards (the smaller
boards)to be located so that the bottoms of the boards were no more
than 2'-6" above the car floor. New cars reflected that change right
away, and older cars had the changes applied as they were shopped for
Class 1 repairs.
I guess if you can find out when the cars you are modeling were
shopped, you can pretty well guess if they had their placard holders
high or low at your target date.
Hope this helps.
_________________________________________________________-

If you are looking for the location of the tack boards on each *specific* car on a certain date after the rule went into effect, then I guess this isn't much help, but you didn't note that after I posted the above.

Ron Hildebrand


Southern #23300-23486 Boxcar Doors and Tack Boards #23300-23486

Allen Cain <allencain@...>
 

Folks,
 
I am posting this question for the second time to some lists. Unfortunately
I did not get any responses to the first request. Hopefully, someone can
help me soon as I am now at the point of adding the doors.

I am building four of the very fine Branchline Blueprint Southern Boxcars
(kit #1514) which represent the #23300-23486 series, built 8-47 by
Pullman-Standard (lot 5855). 
 
These kits as received from Branchline came with a random selection of
Youngstown and Superior 8” doors and I am trying to determine the correct
door for 1955.  As usual, Branchline is being GREAT about offering
information and replacement parts.  I can not say enough good things about
their customer service.
 
Bill Schneider of Branchline furnished this info:  “Further to our door
discussion, my roster shows that Southern #23300-23486, built 8-47 by PS
(lot 5855) were all equipped with 8' 7 Panel Superior doors. I have a photo
in the Southern Color Guide of one of these cars in 1963 (albeit
re-numbered), another of one in Middletown NY on the O&W in 1948, so I think
its safe to say they ran that way in 1955.”
 
The photo that Bill sent me appears to be a builder’s photo and has the
Superior door.  If a builder’s photo, this would represent the car in 1947. 
He also has evidence that at least some of these cars retained the Superior
doors as late as 1963.  But, did all?
 
Can anyone offer a photo reference or advice on the correct door for these
cars in 1955?
 
The car numbers are:
 
23005
23168
23252
23399

And finally, what is the correct location for the door and end tack boards
for 1955? Should they be in the high or low position?
 
Thanks,
 
Allen Cain
Murfreesboro, TN


Re: Oil Paints

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

I use oderless Turpeniod. It's a turpintine substitute with no oder,
good for confined areas like the hobby room.
Clark Propst


Re: Oil Paints

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

I've noticed the coagulation in acrylics too, but found a little pressure
from the brush or my finger on the blob was sufficient to mix the lump in to
make the wash flow.

I've also used undiluted acrylic for the dry brushing - seemed to work well.

Guess I'll just have to give oils another try.

Rob Kirkham


Re: Oil Paints

Ned Carey <westernmd@...>
 

Is there a reason to prefer oils to acrylics? I would have thought the
opposite.
Rob Kirkham
Oils make great washes. They are thinner and more consistent as a wash. I
find with acrylics sometimes the pigment coagulates and doesn't spread as
evenly as oils.

Oils out of the tube are thick. For example on a hopper side panel they
could be stippled on to make a rust patch that has a three dimensional
quality to it. (I have not tried this yet)

I forget which color but there is a dark oil (burnt umber?) that has a great
old rust color. When streaked down with a soft brush and thinner, it leaves
a lighter "rust washed downwards" color below the darker rust patch. It's
very realistic. Mike Rose and Mike Budde have both done some excellent
articles on freight car weathering using this technique.

Since oils dry much more slowly (Al Welch asks; if ever?) they are better
for dry brushing. Great for truck sideframes to bring out the detail.

Acrylics on the other hand dry much more quickly allowing one to move on to
other steps without waiting. I don't think I would even bother trying
spraying oils.

In summation both are valuable for modeling depending on what effect you
want to achieve.

Ned


Re: Oil Paints

TC <tculotta@...>
 

Rob Kirkham wrote:

Is there a reason to prefer oils to acrylics? I would have thought
the
opposite.
Ron:

My personal experience (and this is not by any means right) is I find
that oils (and other solvent based paints) tend to flow better for me.
I also like the thickness of the tube based oils and the way they react
with mineral spirits. However, there are plenty of other modelers that
make acrylics work for weathering. I think it's all about what works
for you and what you are comfortable with. I say that the most
important thing is to do it. One will never build up a basis of
experience if he doesn't try.

Regards,
Ted Culotta


Re: Oil Paints

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Is there a reason to prefer oils to acrylics? I would have thought the
opposite.

Rob Kirkham


Re: Wheel jig (was :weathered model photos posted)

Ned Carey <westernmd@...>
 

That wheel painting jig on the Yahoo file is super! I've got to build
one. No, I've got to build two, one 33" and one 36". It sure will beat
trying to clean paint off all my wheels.
Andy Miller
Andy,

The one I built has twelve holes. The extra holes could be reamed for
different size wheels so you'd only need to make on jig. You still need to
do some minor clean up of the treads but not that much.

Ned


Re: Life Like announces Fowler cars ?

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Stafford, thanks for your input on these cars again. My interest is piqued
by the following comments in your e-mail:

(per Don Valentine) The style of roof has yet to be determined.
If I get my way these will be the as-delivered wood-sheathed roofs.

That said, I am now aware some cars were rebuilt with CNR's favorite
Hutchins roofs. That is, Al Welch has been working on me on the
existence/frequency of this feature and has provided a photo of one
car and mentioned yet another to me. While I'm not yet convinced this
was a very common retrofit as my ca 1984/85 research said "there were
none", this is now a live issue. These days I have way more photos
to trudge through to revisit the question properly. Thus this won't
be quick.
This raises a some questions - partly model - partly prototype.

When you say you want "wood-sheathed roofs", do you mean metal-clad
wood-sheathed roofs, or just the bare boards? - (I'm struggling to find the
right terms here, so bear with me).

As I understand the CPR cars from looking at photos (not that many, I grant
you) by the mid thirties, I'd estimate that at least 75% of cars I've
observed had metal sheathed roofs. (Of course, your e-mail refers to the
CNR cars, which I don't know much about - they may be different). I'm not
knowledgeable enough to say if these metal sheathed roofs were a proprietary
roof or a company shops effort - so do not know if it was Hutchins, or
something else. (And most photos in my collection aren't clear enough to
judge in any event.)

When I've purchased Westerfield and Kaslo versions of the car, I've tended
to buy mostly the metal clad roof cars. I thought that a good balance for
late 30's to late 40's. But again, the CNR cars could be different.

Or maybe your point is that wood roofs are easier to modify to metal, than
from metal back to wood?

Or maybe the Life Like Canada cars are metal roofs and you want the option
of having someone else do the wood?

I hope I haven't lost you with this meandering question. But I'd like to
get an understanding, first, of the roof options available on the prototype
for both the CNR and CPR cars, and also some understanding of why your
research leans you to favor wood sheathed. (Knowing that you model a later
period than do I).

Thanks in advance.

Rob Kirkham


Re: Southern #23300-23486 Boxcar Doors and Tack Boards #23300-23486

HAWK0621@...
 

In a message dated 5/3/03 12:12:32 PM, allencain@comcast.net writes:

I am posting this question for the second time to some lists. Unfortunately
I did not get any responses to the first request. Hopefully, someone can
help me soon as I am now at the point of adding the doors.

I am building four of the very fine Branchline Blueprint Southern Boxcars
(kit #1514) which represent the #23300-23486 series, built 8-47 by
Pullman-Standard (lot 5855). 
These kits as received from Branchline came with a random selection of
Youngstown and Superior 8” doors and I am trying to determine the correct
door for 1955.  As usual, Branchline is being GREAT about offering
information and replacement parts.  I can not say enough good things about
their customer service.
<SNIP>

Allen,
There are three separate issues here. First, not all cars in the entire
series specified received Superior doors. Cars in series 23300-23472 (173
cars) received 7-panel Superior doors and 23743-23486 (14 cars) received
Youngstown doors. There were other cars produced as part of lot no. 5855, but
I will not discuss them since you specified only series 23300-23486. The
prototype cars having 7-panel Superior doors had a version of the Superior
door with evenly spaces panels top to bottom. As built, the placards were
attached to the second stiffener down from the top of the door. See photo on
page 29 of the November 1999 RMJ. (Incidentally, the roster that I had
published in the October/November 1999 RMJ requires updating as I
subsequently obtained original Pullman-Standard bills of materials for this
lot number. I used the best information I had at the time, but it was
incorrect regarding this series of cars.)

Secondly, Branchline Trains has not tooled a 7-panel Superior door for
openings of 8' wide. The kits have 6-panel doors, which are incorrect for
this series cars. The 6-panel Superior door first appeared in 1952.
Conceivably, the car you are modeling could have been equipped with a
replacement set of doors by 1955.

The only HO-scale doors that I'm aware of that are correct for this car were
made by Joe Pennington of Springfield, Missouri. Joe produced these doors in
cast urethane for SL-SF PS-1s built in 1948. However, I recently heard that
Joe is sold out of these doors and was getting out of the business of
producing parts of this type.

Third, the placard could have been lowered any time after January 1, 1954,
but I've seen many examples of cars photographed in the late 1950s that
retained the placards in their original high position. Chances were
reasonably high that in 1955 the placard was still in the original high
position for many cars in the series. My only in-service photos of cars from
P-S lot 5855 have Youngstown doors.

This probably isn't the "simple answer" that you may have hoped for, but
these are the facts as I know them.

Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Oil Paints

Ned Carey <westernmd@...>
 

I am just wondering about the advisability of applying Dullcote over
undried oil paint. Then there's the question whether oil paint ever dries.
Al Welch
Mike Rose uses oil paints to represent rust streaks on his freight cars. He
regularly sprays dullcoat over oils between layers of oil streaking to seal
the lower layers so they are not affected by the thinners while streaking
the upper layers.

He does let the oils dry between layers. Oils thinned as washes would dry
much quicker than thick oils as used traditionally on a canvas. He has a web
page that briefly describes the technique.
http://www.mrhobby.com/rust.html
In first paragraph after the first two pictures he describes using dullcoat
between layers of oils.

While the technique is best for modern weathering patterns, I have seen
pictures of X29s with similar weathering to PLCX 16364 on the above page.

Ned
(If I'm talking about modeling techniques, I'm talkning about how to model
freight cars. They are the only models I build any more.)


Re: Life Like announces Fowler cars ?

Stafford Swain <sswain@...>
 

Good point!

>Then remember the buying modelers are stuck in the 1950s not the 1930s and
that Don has to sell these puppies to do the CPR car you probably mostly
want.<

This is a good point and for RTR cars it might be better for him to
realize a profit with an AB system (based on your comments). However for
kits I see no reason the instructions couldn't show both installations in
the instructions. I have a whole sack of K brakes from Tichy if for some
reason he doesn't want to cut molds for both. Just make it so I/others can
assemble the car/s with K brakes.
This is one of the biggest problems I have with the P2K tank cars for
example. I can put the K brakes on but it sure would have been better to
arrange the design so I could easily use either.
As we say about a lot of injection molded cars a little extra design
probably wouldn't cost that much and sure would be better.
--
Stafford Swain
26 Kenneth Street
Winnipeg, MB, Canada
R3T 0K8
(204) 477-9246
sswain@mts.net


Re: NERS Standard Car's Dominion Cars

Stafford Swain <sswain@...>
 

Since 1953 was the absolute cutoff date for K brakes in interchange, I'm not
sure CPR would have kept it's K brake equipped boxcars strictly on home turf
prior to that time. The majority of CPR's Dominion cars were K brake with
the AB Brake betterment being only in modest numbers. My 1955 MP-14 lists
only 156 cars out of a total fleet of 7500 cars as having AB Brakes.

Cheers

Russ Pinchbeck
Calgary, Alberta
I knew that data was available <g>!

--
Stafford Swain
26 Kenneth Street
Winnipeg, MB, Canada
R3T 0K8
(204) 477-9246
sswain@mts.net


Re: NERS Standard Car's Dominion Cars

Stafford Swain <sswain@...>
 

Hi Rob:

Stafford's right about Don having to sell these puppies. And I expect the
market in the U.S.A. will mostly want AB brakes because (guessing) those are
the cars that would have been interchanged in the most popular era. But
for the Canadian modeler of CPR, those long wheat trains of Dominion cars
didn't have to be interchanged much, and my understanding is that the K
brakes stayed around a long time. I'm starting a move, so my books are all
in boxes. But I suspect that even in the fifties, the K brake cars were
still a very substantial group of the CPR Dominion car fleet. For my
modelling era (which seems to float from late 30's to late 40's depending on
my latest research find), K brakes would be my preference. As a compromise,
a conversion kit would be fine.
CPR kept track of K-brake conversion numbers and these are known by CPR broad car types. I think I may still have the info here but it has been well circulated amongst the CPR freight car researchers (I've seen to that). Be assured that CPR was a minimalist when it came to spending money on such conversions.


But make sure the car gets to the market in a form that will sell - with
whatever brakes that takes. I want well over a hundred of them.

Rob Kirkham
--
Stafford Swain
26 Kenneth Street
Winnipeg, MB, Canada
R3T 0K8
(204) 477-9246
sswain@mts.net


Re: Life Like announces Fowler cars ?

Stafford Swain <sswain@...>
 

Hi:

As a consultant to Don Valentine on this project (remember I authored the CNR and other roads portion of the 1985/86 MM series on Dominion cars with Paul Clegg leading off with the CPR) let me cut in with a few "corrections" as it were.

Quoting Jon Miller <atsf@inow.com>:

OK help with what's happening with LL and Don's car.
> First I understand the LL P2K is doing a Mather box car as many of
<snip>

>
The Fowler/Dominion cars was common on US rails but the only one
available to us with be Don's, is this correct?
O.K., Jon, let's see if we can sort some of this out for you.
<snip>

Fowler held a patent that dealt only with the attachment
of the sheathing. It had absolutely nothing to do with the design of the
actual car. The design was conducted by Canadian Car & Foundry predecessor
Dominion Car & Foundry in conjunction with the Canadian Pacific Rwy. Thus,
like Paul Clegg in his original article on these cars, we call the car what
it is, the Dominion car.
Actually, it was Paul Clegg and myself who jointly came up with the Dominion car name. IIRC the moment, neither of us liked the Fowler Patent Car name as we didn't think it was really on point to the essence of the design. I think it was me who spontaneously said on the phone one evening "why don't we just call them Dominion cars". Paul instantly agreed and while we kicked that thought around for a few minutes longer, it was a done deal for both of us from that moment.

Later we lost the battle of generally accepted modeler (as opposed to industry) standard nomenclature to Al Westerfield. Speaking for me, I have long gotten over that "loss" as either of these names is just a modeler construct.

Speaking of now Calgary-based Paul Clegg, he is still an active researcher/ CPR modeler (and CP Rail executive). Thus he is now assisting Don Valentine with things CPR. As always, the more quality folks who are involved in such research the better the product so I made the call.

<snip>


You suggest that NERS' Standard Car Co. division will be doing the same
car, but with different doors, only in kit form. The last part of that will
be true for the initial run but we do plan to offer RTR versions as well.
As to whether our car will be the same only with different doors, I have no
idea because, as stated, I have no idea what L-L Canada is doing. We,
however, are looking at more than one model.

Our first release, which we still plan to have out at the NMRA National
in Toronto, is patterned after the 2,500 cars constructed in 1923 for the
CNR. Stafford Swain tells me these cars were actually ordered by the Grand
Trunk in its last days.
That was as stated in the literature of the day. It is sort of moot as it was also known that the Grand Trunk was going to swallowed up by the Canadian National by 1923.


That may be, but they are the only new cars of the type the CNR ever received because the 1923 order was the last delivered of the type.
Actually, the Canadian National received 5-foot door-width cars in 1920 which essentially were clones of the large fleet of 1917/18/19 built 5-foot door-width cars. These were built (using Canadian federal government railway system bail-out money) and were delivered to the Canadian Northern and the Canadian Government Railways rosters (both the Transcontinental division and the Intercolonial division). As a matter of practicality, all this 1917 to 1920 built fleet could be viewed as a series of orders for the envisioned future Canadian National. See "third release" comments below.

<snip>

Our third release will be patterned after the many cars constructed
between late 1917 and 1920 the CNR received from its predecessor lines. Like the CPR cars, this group will have 5 ft. doors, BUT the sides are
quite different because the diagonals on these car are parallel while
the CPR's were not. They will also have the straight steel plate brace
between the end and the first inboard vertical post, which the CPR cars did
not have, and two brace ends
s/b four brace ends.



The style of roof has yet to be determined.
If I get my way these will be the as-delivered wood-sheathed roofs.

That said, I am now aware some cars were rebuilt with CNR's favorite Hutchins roofs. That is, Al Welch has been working on me on the existence/frequency of this feature and has provided a photo of one car and mentioned yet another to me. While I'm not yet convinced this was a very common retrofit as my ca 1984/85 research said "there were none", this is now a live issue. These days I have way more photos to trudge through to revisit the question properly. Thus this won't be quick.



Release is planned for early next year.

Assuming, and I hate that word, everything goes as planned, we are
looking at versions for any number of the smaller Canadian roads that owned
these cars in addition to the Erie and the NC&StL. That, however, is down
the road, as are stock car versions. My plate is full with these three right
now, thank you!

There was a thread begun on these about the time my ISP died Wed. about
the number of these cars in the US and where they traveled here. Bear in
mind that both the CNR and the CPR EACH had more than 30,000 of these cars.
Until the US carbuilders began cranking out new steel boxcars in earnest in
late 1947 I'll wager that they were the most common foreign car found on any
New England road. They carried both lumber and newsprint, in additon to
grain, well down into the mid-Atlantic states in the east. I do not know how
far south they were as common in other parts of the country. In any event, it
is doubtful that they were a stranger on any Class I or II US road.

I mentioned being told the dealer NET on the L-L Canada car was $27 Cdn.
This equates closely with the retail announcements of around $40.00 CDN which should mean about $28.00 U.S. retail.


We are making every possible effort to hold this Vermont made product to a
RETAIL price of not over $17.50 US.
<snip>


All for now, Don Valentine

--
Stafford Swain
26 Kenneth Street
Winnipeg, MB, Canada
R3T 0K8
(204) 477-9246
sswain@mts.net


Re: Milw SS box cars

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

Tom,
We go fishing at Red Wing in Nov. and March. Could you give me directions? I know where
the two depots are.
Thanks
C W Propst

bakert@andrews.edu wrote:

Clark and all,

I guess you know about the two MILW SS box cars marooned on some rail in Red
Wing, Minnesota. They are--or were last I looked--next to a building and not
far from the spot where the transfer track from the Chicago Great Western once
was. Either road had a climb up that grade to transfer cars.

Tom


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Re: Life Like announces Fowler cars ?

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Then remember the buying modelers are stuck in the 1950s not the 1930s and
that Don has to sell these puppies to do the CPR car you probably mostly
want.<

This is a good point and for RTR cars it might be better for him to
realize a profit with an AB system (based on your comments). However for
kits I see no reason the instructions couldn't show both installations in
the instructions. I have a whole sack of K brakes from Tichy if for some
reason he doesn't want to cut molds for both. Just make it so I/others can
assemble the car/s with K brakes.
This is one of the biggest problems I have with the P2K tank cars for
example. I can put the K brakes on but it sure would have been better to
arrange the design so I could easily use either.
As we say about a lot of injection molded cars a little extra design
probably wouldn't cost that much and sure would be better.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief/Zephyr systems
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: NERS Standard Car's Dominion Cars

Russell Pinchbeck <rpinchbeck@...>
 

Since 1953 was the absolute cutoff date for K brakes in interchange, I'm not
sure CPR would have kept it's K brake equipped boxcars strictly on home turf
prior to that time. The majority of CPR's Dominion cars were K brake with
the AB Brake betterment being only in modest numbers. My 1955 MP-14 lists
only 156 cars out of a total fleet of 7500 cars as having AB Brakes.

Cheers

Russ Pinchbeck
Calgary, Alberta

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Kirkham [mailto:rdkirkham@shaw.ca]
Sent: May 3, 2003 12:28 AM
To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] NERS Standard Car's Dominion Cars


Stafford's right about Don having to sell these puppies. And I expect the
market in the U.S.A. will mostly want AB brakes because (guessing) those are
the cars that would have been interchanged in the most popular era. But
for the Canadian modeler of CPR, those long wheat trains of Dominion cars
didn't have to be interchanged much, and my understanding is that the K
brakes stayed around a long time. I'm starting a move, so my books are all
in boxes. But I suspect that even in the fifties, the K brake cars were
still a very substantial group of the CPR Dominion car fleet. For my
modelling era (which seems to float from late 30's to late 40's depending on
my latest research find), K brakes would be my preference. As a compromise,
a conversion kit would be fine.

But make sure the car gets to the market in a form that will sell - with
whatever brakes that takes. I want well over a hundred of them.

Rob Kirkham





To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


NERS Standard Car's Dominion Cars

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Stafford's right about Don having to sell these puppies. And I expect the
market in the U.S.A. will mostly want AB brakes because (guessing) those are
the cars that would have been interchanged in the most popular era. But
for the Canadian modeler of CPR, those long wheat trains of Dominion cars
didn't have to be interchanged much, and my understanding is that the K
brakes stayed around a long time. I'm starting a move, so my books are all
in boxes. But I suspect that even in the fifties, the K brake cars were
still a very substantial group of the CPR Dominion car fleet. For my
modelling era (which seems to float from late 30's to late 40's depending on
my latest research find), K brakes would be my preference. As a compromise,
a conversion kit would be fine.

But make sure the car gets to the market in a form that will sell - with
whatever brakes that takes. I want well over a hundred of them.

Rob Kirkham


CPR War Emergency Boxcars = NKP War Emergency Boxcars?

Russell Pinchbeck <rpinchbeck@...>
 

Hey Gang,

Does anyone have images of NKP's War Emergency boxcars, #8000 series? I came
across a thumbnail image of one that looks very much like CPR's
239000-239249 series. CP's cars are like this: 10'-0" IH, D5/5 "W" corner
ends, Raised Panel roof, Wood Running Boards, 6' Youngstown 5-6-5 Short
Inter Panel w/ Early Camel fixtures.

The most obvious difference I can see is the Superior door on the NKP car.
That's easy to change. The ends look like D5/5 ends but I can't make out if
they are "W" corner or Square.

Any help is appreciated.

Cheers

Russ Pinchbeck
Calgary, Alberta

170181 - 170200 of 188615