Date   

Re: Speas Company 50ft car question.

Chris Barkan
 

Is there any chance that this car in Independence, Iowa is one of these cars?  I have attached some photos taken in Sept 2019.  The odd thing for a milk (or vinegar) car is that it has end doors.   It can be seen in Google Street View at:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.478193,-91.8891952,3a,60y,102.96h,90.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQVJ5Zh7NRy8zPjIFhGVqZQ!2e0!7i3328!8i1664?hl=en

--
Chris Barkan
Champaign, IL


Re: Shipping Bulk Cement - not on the RR?

Clark Propst
 

I don't know when barrels gave way to cloth sacks, but would believe it was before WWII. Paper bags came in the early 50s I believe? Cement was sold by the barrels for years after. 4 sacks to a barrel @ 94lbs a sack you can do the math for the weight of a barrel  ;  ))

Cement company logos were designed to fit on a barrel lid.

Clark Propst


Re: Shipping Bulk Cement - not on the RR?

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Reflecting on my answer, I should have mentioned that the BIG HEAVY TRUCKS were flatbed trucks with the palletized loads strategically located over the rear wheels of the trailers.  The bags on the pallets were wrapped with tarps to try to keep rain off.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2021 3:48 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Shipping Bulk Cement - not on the RR?

 

Yes, I knew of one when I was ~10 years old and those were BIG HEAVY TRUCKS.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2021 12:03 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Shipping Bulk Cement - not on the RR?

 

Hi,
  Although not directly related to the topic of this list - I have no other good
place to ask ...

  If you have a cement plant and it is shipping bagged in box cars and bulk
in hopper cars ... how did it ship to a local Concrete plant that was not
rail served?

  It seems to me its highly unlikely that they shipped bagged cement to a
ready mix plant that wasn't on an RR.  Do you know of such a plant and
how it got/gets its bulk cement?
                                                                                - Jim 


Re: Shipping Bulk Cement - not on the RR?

Ken O'Brien
 

Sorry, left my name off.

Ken O'Brien


Re: Shipping Bulk Cement - not on the RR?

Ken O'Brien
 

Each canister was 22K pounds gross weight. They were from LCL Corp and were used by NYC, DL&W, and D&H also. LV and DL&W floated them across to NY Cty during the building boom after WWII. They were air activated; the hose went thru the holes in the car sides.


Re: Shipping Bulk Cement - not on the RR?

Jeffrey Gray <bigsix@...>
 

Boy, what a car to model! Talk about “weathering”! Meanwhile, the thread started I think with bags (at 94 pounds) each, loaded into boxcars, and yes in some situations construction jobs did take delivery of bag and barrel cement years ago. Those fellows (the laborers – were pretty tough I think), but, and maybe I saw in the Lee Rainey “East Broad Top” book,  there is a photo of an early LV or LNE covered hopper riding on 3 foot narrow gauge trucks during the construction of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, circa. 1940, to deliver bulk cement to an on-site batching plant. Also, I think in those times cement was maybe handled in “Link-Belt” style elevating bucket conveyors as I don’t think air handling was being used, as it is the method today. Dry Bulk tank trailers, maybe a truck person like Mont can advise on this technology. This is an interesting  rabbit hole, considering the car routing subject. Hey, maybe that Covered Hopper went via LV, to Reading, to PRR (Mt. Union) to EBT! Now that would be a cool waybill! Maybe it was even on the Catasauqua Branch too!

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Edward
Sent: Sunday, June 6, 2021 3:38 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Shipping Bulk Cement - not on the RR?

 

[Edited Message Follows]

Here is a Lehigh Valley gondola, modified to carry bulk cement cannisters.
They were loaded and unloaded using compressed air.
They generally ran from eastern Pennsylvania to the Hudson River, where loaded cannisters were put onto barges for delivery to various locations around NY City.
From the barges, cannisters were taken by truck to construction sites (like NY World Trade Center when it was being built) and where the final mixing for concrete was done.
Empty cannisters went back by barge to the LV, for a return trip to be refilled.
The NY Central and the D&H also carried bulk cement cannisters this way.

Ed Bommer

 


Re: PLASTIC CEMENTS

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Randy, my Tenax seemed to evaporate regardless of how tightly I screwed on the top.  Does this do that?

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Randy Hammill
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2021 12:12 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PLASTIC CEMENTS

 

I’ve been using Styrene Tack-it II

https://www.amazon.com/Tenax-Styrene-II-Single-Ounce-Bottles/dp/B07NCC2FDG/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=styrene+tack-it+ii&qid=1622995629&sprefix=styrene+tack&sr=8-3


Supposedly it’s a reverse engineered Tenax 7R made better. It works well, which is all I really care about.

Randy
--

Randy Hammill
Prototype Junction
http://prototypejunction.com

Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954
http://newbritainstation.com


Re: Shipping Bulk Cement - not on the RR?

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Yes, I knew of one when I was ~10 years old and those were BIG HEAVY TRUCKS.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2021 12:03 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Shipping Bulk Cement - not on the RR?

 

Hi,
  Although not directly related to the topic of this list - I have no other good
place to ask ...

  If you have a cement plant and it is shipping bagged in box cars and bulk
in hopper cars ... how did it ship to a local Concrete plant that was not
rail served?

  It seems to me its highly unlikely that they shipped bagged cement to a
ready mix plant that wasn't on an RR.  Do you know of such a plant and
how it got/gets its bulk cement?
                                                                                - Jim 


Re: Shipping Bulk Cement - not on the RR?

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 09:02 AM, Jim Betz wrote:
It seems to me its highly unlikely that they shipped bagged cement to a
ready mix plant that wasn't on an RR.  Do you know of such a plant and
how it got/gets its bulk cement?
Ready mix? That's a relatively new concept, dating to the thirties. Before that, materials were delivered to the job site and mixed there. Cement typically came in bags - the perfect container. Labor was cheap, bags were small enough to move by hand, and kept the cement clean and free of contamination until the bag was emptied directly into the mixer... and, the cloth bags were returnable and reusable.

After WWII labor costs increased, better mechanical mixers were developed, combined with trucks, and the redi-mix industry was born. Concurrent with that, the trucking industry was making in-roads into the railroad's monopoly on the transportation of bulk materials. I ran into a web history that put the sart of bulk cement hauling "post WWII" using screw auger trailers, and the first pneumatic bulker at 1959.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Shipping Bulk Cement - not on the RR?

Edward
 
Edited

Here is a Lehigh Valley gondola, modified to carry bulk cement cannisters.
They were loaded and unloaded using compressed air.
They generally ran from eastern Pennsylvania to the Hudson River, where loaded cannisters were put onto barges for delivery to various locations around NY City.
From the barges, cannisters were taken by truck to construction sites (like NY World Trade Center when it was being built) and where the final mixing for concrete was done.
Empty cannisters went back by barge to the LV, for a return trip to be refilled.
The NY Central and the D&H also carried bulk cement cannisters this way.

Ed Bommer


Re: UP Livestock Car 47630D (Class Not Visible)

Kenneth Montero
 

Thank you, Tony.
 
Now to add this to the "things to do" list.
 
Ken Montero

On 06/06/2021 3:05 PM Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:
 
 
Kenneth Montero wrote:

Is there a single source that lists the "almost dead-on right" Athearn cars - hopefully, including:
-- the prototype to which the model is "almost dead-on right",
-- what are the errors ?
A number of the Athearn cars were so analyzed by Richard Hendrickson, in a group of article in MRJ, but never collected in one place, AFAIK.

Tony Thompson
 


Re: UP Livestock Car 47630D (Class Not Visible)

Tony Thompson
 

Kenneth Montero wrote:

Is there a single source that lists the "almost dead-on right" Athearn cars - hopefully, including:
-- the prototype to which the model is "almost dead-on right",
-- what are the errors ?

A number of the Athearn cars were so analyzed by Richard Hendrickson, in a group of article in MRJ, but never collected in one place, AFAIK.

Tony Thompson




Re: UP Livestock Car 47630D (Class Not Visible)

Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:


Very close to dead on right. But the major error is the MIRROR IMAGE roof ! Oops.

The *almost* dead-on right award goes to several Athearn models including the R-40-23
reefer, the 40 foot all steel box car, and a few others.

But the box car is an oddball height -- and I assume we are neglecting the horribly clunky door claws and too-short doors -- sigh, okay, I'm not going down the whole list.

Tony Thompson




Re: Shipping Bulk Cement - not on the RR?

John Sykes III
 

It just dawned on me that, before bags, cement was shipped in barrels.  For a bulk shipment, I guess you could just use bigger barrels, similar to the LCL containers used in the late 40s and early 50s to ship cement from the Lehigh Valley into NYC.  Need some photo documentation, though.

-- John


Re: Shipping Bulk Cement - not on the RR?

Clark Propst
 

Here in Iowa trucks were not allowed to haul from cement plants until 1960. In other words cement plants only shipped by rail. I do have a photo of guys emptying bags at a readi-mix facility. How common was that? 
If trucks were allowed into cement plants before that date in other states one would need to know when the type of trailer used to haul cement was in universal use? Late 50s? More questions...

Clark propst


Re: ACR Side Construction

Bill Kelly
 


Find the January 1987, vol 3 number 1 issue of the UPHS magazine, _The Streamliner_. There is a very good article by Frank Peacock titled "Box and Autocar Nomenclature". This is the first publication of his term "ACR" along with many others.
Later,
Bill Kelly 
 
Tim wrote:

Randy

ACR was a solution that arose when railroads chose to use thinner copper bearing steel side
sheets (Cor-Ten steel) that were not as rigid as the thicker conventional side sheets. The UP
obviously felt the weight savings was worth the extra cost, while some like the SP only used it
for some cars and then dropped it. (The Cor-Ten side sheets required an extra vertical stiffener.)

As for the terminology, I don't know who coined it. :-)

Tim O'Connor


On 6/5/2021 11:01 AM, Randy Hammill wrote:
I don’t know the answer to that, but a I do wonder where the term ACR came from. Was it an industry term or something coined by modelers/historians?

I suppose I should go digging through CBCs when I get home.

Randy



Re: Shipping Bulk Cement - not on the RR?

John Sykes III
 

Same as today, by bulk hopper truck.


Re: PLASTIC CEMENTS

Randy Hammill
 

I’ve been using Styrene Tack-it II

https://www.amazon.com/Tenax-Styrene-II-Single-Ounce-Bottles/dp/B07NCC2FDG/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=styrene+tack-it+ii&qid=1622995629&sprefix=styrene+tack&sr=8-3

Supposedly it’s a reverse engineered Tenax 7R made better. It works well, which is all I really care about.

Randy
--

Randy Hammill
Prototype Junction
http://prototypejunction.com

Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954
http://newbritainstation.com


Re: PLASTIC CEMENTS

Randy Hammill
 

I use Aleene’s for a lot. Gluing down my track, for example. It is a bit flexible when dried, I use it for gluing etched running boards on plastic models.

Randy
--

Randy Hammill
Prototype Junction
http://prototypejunction.com

Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954
http://newbritainstation.com


Re: UP Livestock Car 47630D (Class Not Visible)

Kenneth Montero
 

Tim (and others on this list),
 
Is there a single source that lists the "almost dead-on right" Athearn cars - hopefully, including:
-- the prototype to which the model is "almost dead-on right",
-- what are the errors ?
 
If not, I will be glad to put together such a list if folks will let me know:
-- the prototype from which the Athearn model is patterned,
-- what are the errors (and if any of them are complete foobies - the location of air brake appliances being one of them - as opposed to the wrong appliance or feature) , and
-- if known and readily found, a source for the correct information for that prototype.
.
See attached for what I have started.
 
This information would be helpful for kitbashing purposes. since Athearn cars often get used for kitbashing.
 
Ken Montero

On 06/06/2021 10:11 AM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
 
 

Very close to dead on right. But the major error is the MIRROR IMAGE roof ! Oops.

The *almost* dead-on right award goes to several Athearn models including the R-40-23
reefer, the 40 foot all steel box car, and a few others.

Tim O'Connor


On 6/6/2021 3:14 AM, John Sykes III via groups.io wrote:
Union Pacific class S-40-12.  This is one of the very few models that Athearn got dead-on right.

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

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