Date   

Re: C&O twin hopper 21105 in WV (1914)

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Dan,
 
Interesting stuff.
 
Thanks,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 10:58 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] C&O twin hopper 21105 in WV (1914)
 
Yes, they are early horse-drawn scrapers, usually pulled by two horses, The operator walks behind holding the long handle that controls the scraper-bowl’s angle. Raise the handle and the bowl digs into the earth, push the handle down and the bowl lifts for transport of the excavated earth. To dump the bowl just release the handle, the bowl will drop, snag on the ground, and (nearly) overturn, dumping the load.
 
There were many variations of such scrapers ... the ones shown are about the simplest. On more sophisticated examples (without the long handle) the entire bowl would rotate 360º while dumping and return to the ‘rest’ position …these are called “Tumblebugs” from their action.
 
Eventually they evolved into 4-wheeled devices with the bowl angle and dumping-action powered by the rotation of the wheels, via chain-drives. By then they had all the basic motions of a modern wheeled scraper.
 
Today the small ones are still around, like the Tumblebugs, but pulled by small tractors. Such are hardly ever seen at construction sites, but are popular with farmers for grading and digging small ponds.
 
Many such machines can be seen at HCEA (Historic Construction Equipment Assn.) meets. Explore their website for photos.
 
Dan Mitchell
==========

On Jun 23, 2021, at 8:45 AM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:
 
On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 07:20 PM, Claus Schlund \(HGM\) wrote:
 
 
I'm left wondering - what are the wheeled conveyances in front of the string of hoppers? There appear to be two of them...
They are horse drawn scapers... excavating machines.

Dennis Storzek
 


B&O ds trussrod boxcar (72448 maybe?) at Pittsburg and Fairmont Fuel Company WV in 1907

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,
 
B&O ds trussrod boxcar (72448 maybe?) at Pittsburg and Fairmont Fuel Company WV in 1907
 
 
Enjoy!
 
Claus Schlund
 


Two views of C&O hoppers at Zephyr Mine in 1954...

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,
 
Two views of C&O hoppers at Zephyr Mine in 1954...
 
 
 
Enjoy!
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 


Re: C&O twin hopper 21105 in WV (1914)

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Yes, they are early horse-drawn scrapers, usually pulled by two horses, The operator walks behind holding the long handle that controls the scraper-bowl’s angle. Raise the handle and the bowl digs into the earth, push the handle down and the bowl lifts for transport of the excavated earth. To dump the bowl just release the handle, the bowl will drop, snag on the ground, and (nearly) overturn, dumping the load.

There were many variations of such scrapers ... the ones shown are about the simplest. On more sophisticated examples (without the long handle) the entire bowl would rotate 360º while dumping and return to the ‘rest’ position …these are called “Tumblebugs” from their action.

Eventually they evolved into 4-wheeled devices with the bowl angle and dumping-action powered by the rotation of the wheels, via chain-drives. By then they had all the basic motions of a modern wheeled scraper.

Today the small ones are still around, like the Tumblebugs, but pulled by small tractors. Such are hardly ever seen at construction sites, but are popular with farmers for grading and digging small ponds.

Many such machines can be seen at HCEA (Historic Construction Equipment Assn.) meets. Explore their website for photos.

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Jun 23, 2021, at 8:45 AM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 07:20 PM, Claus Schlund \(HGM\) wrote:
 
 
I'm left wondering - what are the wheeled conveyances in front of the string of hoppers? There appear to be two of them...
They are horse drawn scapers... excavating machines.

Dennis Storzek


Re: W&LE wood coal gon at Beechwood Mine, Fairmont Coal Company, Monongalia County, WV 1907

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Ben and List Members,
 
Ben asked: "The verbiage with the picture said capacity 750 tons.  Is this the daily output of the mine? Weekly? Monthly?"
 
I don't have the answer to this, however, to shine another perspective on the topic, 750 tons is fifteen 50-ton (twin) hoppers or eleven 70-ton (triple or quad) hoppers
 
Claus Schlund
 

 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] W&LE wood coal gon at Beechwood Mine, Fairmont Coal Company, Monongalia County, WV 1907

Here’s the full sentence from the site. 

Information with print includes "Electric Mining, Rope and Electric Haulage, Capacity 750 Tons". 

I think the capacity is for the mining, rope and haulage system not necessarily the tipple output. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Jun 23, 2021, at 12:32 AM, benjamin <bheinley@...> wrote:

The verbiage with the picture said capacity 750 tons.  Is this the daily output of the mine? Weekly? Monthly?
Thanks for the photos!
Ben Heinley

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 8:21 AM Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;) <claus@...> wrote:
Hi List Members,
 
W&LE wood coal gon at Beechwood Mine, Fairmont Coal Company, Monongalia County, W. Va 1907
 
 
Enjoy!
 
Claus Schlund
 


Re: Photo: SHPX Tank Car 20504 & Friends

Ray Hutchison
 

The third tank car has platform on top... I've most often associated this with (later) chemical cars?


Re: Hopper and gons, Monongah No 8 Mine, Fairmont Coal Company, WV 1907

Ray Hutchison
 

would anyone happen to have a diagram of this (or similar) operation?  If the loading of the coke is from structure in the back, how was finished coke transported to the loading bin?  


Re: Photo: SHPX Tank Car 20504 & Friends

Dennis Storzek
 

You've never seen a man wearing coveralls before?

Dennis Storzek


Re: C&O twin hopper 21105 in WV (1914)

Dennis Storzek
 

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 07:20 PM, Claus Schlund \(HGM\) wrote:
 
 
I'm left wondering - what are the wheeled conveyances in front of the string of hoppers? There appear to be two of them...
They are horse drawn scapers... excavating machines.

Dennis Storzek


Re: W&LE wood coal gon at Beechwood Mine, Fairmont Coal Company, Monongalia County, WV 1907

Eric Hansmann
 

Here’s the full sentence from the site. 

Information with print includes "Electric Mining, Rope and Electric Haulage, Capacity 750 Tons". 

I think the capacity is for the mining, rope and haulage system not necessarily the tipple output. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Jun 23, 2021, at 12:32 AM, benjamin <bheinley@...> wrote:

The verbiage with the picture said capacity 750 tons.  Is this the daily output of the mine? Weekly? Monthly?
Thanks for the photos!
Ben Heinley

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 8:21 AM Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;) <claus@...> wrote:
Hi List Members,
 
W&LE wood coal gon at Beechwood Mine, Fairmont Coal Company, Monongalia County, W. Va 1907
 
 
Enjoy!
 
Claus Schlund
 


Re: C&O twin hopper 21105 in WV (1914)

Douglas Harding
 

They appear to be a variation of a scraper that could be dumped with a trip lever.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 9:20 PM
To: STMFC <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] C&O twin hopper 21105 in WV (1914)

 

Hi List Members,

 

C&O twin hopper 21105 in WV (1914)

 

 

I'm left wondering - what are the wheeled conveyances in front of the string of hoppers? There appear to be two of them...

 

Enjoy!

 

Claus Schlund

 

 


Re: W&LE wood coal gon at Beechwood Mine, Fairmont Coal Company, Monongalia County, WV 1907

benjamin
 

The verbiage with the picture said capacity 750 tons.  Is this the daily output of the mine? Weekly? Monthly?
Thanks for the photos!
Ben Heinley

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 8:21 AM Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;) <claus@...> wrote:
Hi List Members,
 
W&LE wood coal gon at Beechwood Mine, Fairmont Coal Company, Monongalia County, W. Va 1907
 
 
Enjoy!
 
Claus Schlund
 


C&O 16717 (side dump) and 116697 (offset side) hoppers at Island Creek Coal Co WV (undated)

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,
 
C&O 16717 (side dump) and 116697 (offset side) hoppers at Island Creek Coal Co WV
 
 
Enjoy!
 
Claus Schlund
 
 


N&W steel gon at Pond Creek Coal Company WV (undated)

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,
 
N&W steel gon at Pond Creek Coal Company WV (undated)
 
 
Enjoy!
 
Claus Schlund
 


C&O twin hopper 21105 in WV (1914)

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,
 
C&O twin hopper 21105 in WV (1914)
 
 
I'm left wondering - what are the wheeled conveyances in front of the string of hoppers? There appear to be two of them...
 
Enjoy!
 
Claus Schlund
 
 


Re: Photo: SHPX Tank Car 20504 & Friends

Dave Nelson
 

Ok, we’ve got an answer to the row of rivets up top… next question: What is with the front of the big guy’s pants???  Looks like his zipper runs to the top of his beer belly.  8-)

Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 9:05 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: SHPX Tank Car 20504 & Friends

 

Photo: SHPX Tank Car 20504 & Friends

Photo from the Industrial History Blog:

https://tinyurl.com/wctpmnu9

SHPX 20504 has a longitudinal rivet seam along the top of the tank. What is the technical term for this type of construction?

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Toledo & Ohio Central steel gon at a mine at Braxton WV (undated)

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,
 
A Toledo & Ohio Central (New York Central system) steel gon at a mine at Braxton WV
 
 
Enjoy!
 
Claus Schlund
 
 


Re: Photo: Wrecked Freight Cars (Undated)

Charlie Vlk
 

All-

This wreck picture has drawn comments from both the STMFC and EarlyRail groups so please excuse the dual post….

The CB&Q leased in late 1878, then purchased, ten National Steel Tube box cars built under the LaMothe patents.  They also built two cars under license that had railroad improvements…the ill-fated 8300 and 8301.  These cars had underframes and body structure framed with steel tubes and covered with iron sheet, primarily held together with cast and wrought connectors.   LaMothe and his successors had limited sales of cars over a period of approximately 30 years going back to before the Civil War.  While this is predates the STMFC era it is an interesting insight into the attitude of Master Mechanics on the early dawn of the steel car era.

The following is a transcription of a letter from Harry B. Stone (who would play a pivotal role later in the famous Burlington Strike), Superintendent of the Locomotive and Car Department, regarding  a car “in a badly demoralized condition””

CHICAGO, BURLINGTON & QUINCY RAILROAD.

 

Office Supt. Loco & Car Depts

 

Aurora Ill,  November 30th  1880

T.J. Potter Esq.

      Genl Mgr- Chicago

               

Dear Sir:     I now have at the Aurora Shops tubular car No. 8300, which was in the wreck at Rio, in a badly demoralized condition and which shows much more plainly than I have been able to explain heretofore, the disadvantages of its “spider web” construction.  The next car to it was one of our common wooden cars and which came out of the racket with comparatively small injuries.

   This car is in such bad shape that I am entirely at a loss to know how to repair it, and if left to my own devices should probably tear it down and put it into scrap; as however it is a patent car I would suggest that you notify the patentee, Mr. W. O. Cooke,  Nos. 13 & 15 Park Row, New York City, and ask him if he will not come out and advise with use in regard to its repair.  Before doing anything with the car I shall have a careful and thorough report made and also sketches showing the manner of failure.

                                                                                                                                               

Yours truly,

(sgd)    Harry B. Stone

 

(Car 8300 was eventually stripped and received a body with the same  28’ dimensions but with standard CB&Q wood body details. The other car built under license, 8301, in 1887 received a wood body which had standard CB&Q 34’ box car dimensions.)

 

The “common wooden” cars were easy to repair and the railroads were well equipped to handle them.  Until lumber in the sizes and species needed became difficult to source and expensive the railroads were reluctant to move to iron and steel cars and to convert the infrastructure to build and maintain them.

 

Charlie Vlk

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 11:46 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Wrecked Freight Cars (Undated)

 

Very interesting observation, Dennis.  I was surprised at how well the wood-framed cars retained their structural integrity as a rectilinear box, though the corner of the metal roofed car suffered considerably.

 

But I was curious about the evidently dismembered car number 1776 in the upper left of the photo.  Cleanly chopped off, it appears, and where is the rest of that car?

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 12:36 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Wrecked Freight Cars (Undated)

 

On Sun, Jun 20, 2021 at 10:07 AM, Bob Chaparro wrote:

http://digitalcollections.uwyo.edu/luna/servlet/detail/uwydbuwy~23~23~992579~208256?qvq=q:wreck&mi=123&trs=184

Coming in late here, but this photo is an excellent example of the problems with early steel roofs, and why they were so slow to be adopted. Looking at the wrecked cars in the pile, only one has a steel roof. The cars with the double board roofs are mostly intact, while the one steel roof is completely destroyed; all of the seams between panels have split open. Admittedly, the car has likely endured extreme racking, but wood framed house cars ( and the early steel framed cars with less than optimal stiffness in the roof structure) where known to rack in normal service, termed "weaving" in the trade press of the day. Because of this the sheets of the early steel roofs would loosen from the car, and leak. The initial solution to this problem was to add heavy metal clasps to the edge of the roof, the theory being that this allowed larger screws into the eave, to better hold the sheets in place. The car in the photo has these, two per panel. However, as the photo illustrates, this really was not effective because it didn't address the basic problem.

The next stage of improvement, about WWI, was the "flexible" or "pivoted" metal roof, examples from all three major roof vendors illustrated HERE.
This separated the metal panel from the roof eave with a slip joint, and provided wide wood battens to clamp down the edges of the sheets without restraining their lateral movement. The wood battens were then covered with wide metal seam caps designed to keep the water out of the joints.

The next stage of development, in the twenties, eliminated the wood sheathing and integrated the seam caps with the supporting carlines, while still providing the flexibility required. The Hutchins Dry Lading and Viking roofs are examples., The problem wasn't truely solved until the carbuilders and railroads decided to allow enough material in the roof structure to actually prevent weaving, with the flat riveted roofs as used on the X29 and early ARA steel cars, which were a precursor to the Murphy "Solid Steel" roof.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Photo: SHPX Tank Car 20504 & Friends

mel perry
 

that looks likeba rivet overlay seam
;-)
mel perry

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021, 10:10 AM Philip Dove <philipdove22@...> wrote:
I think it's called flash or the moulding line. The builders should have filed it off, it is most careless and unrealistic😊

On Tue, 22 Jun 2021, 17:05 Bob Chaparro via groups.io, <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Photo: SHPX Tank Car 20504 & Friends

Photo from the Industrial History Blog:

https://tinyurl.com/wctpmnu9

SHPX 20504 has a longitudinal rivet seam along the top of the tank. What is the technical term for this type of construction?

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: SHPX Tank Car 20504 & Friends

Tony Thompson
 

Bob Chaparro wrote:

Photo: SHPX Tank Car 20504 & Friends
Photo from the Industrial History Blog:
SHPX 20504 has a longitudinal rivet seam along the top of the tank. What is the technical term for this type of construction?

Three-course construction, if I understand your question. There are two top sheets and a bottom sheet, thus three rivet courses.

Tony Thompson



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