Date   

Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Doug Paasch
 

This is a cross-posting I just placed on the GN list, but here is what I have on GN caboose colors:

 

I dug out my copy of “Rocky and Old Bill – A History of Great Northern Paint and Lettering Schemes” by Hank Stevens published and copyrighted in 1994.  According to it, the paint scheme for GN cabooses was “mineral red” with white lettering into the 1920s, and was changed to vermillion bodies with black roofs, trucks, underframes, end platforms, and ladders in the 1920’s, with some cabooses still in mineral red into the 1930s.  The lettering starting with the vermillion cabooses was yellow into the 1950s, and if repainted 1953-1956, lettering was changed to white.  The roofs started being painted silver in the early 1960s, although wood roofs could be painted silver or black even then.  And of course, 1967 was when Big Sky Blue replaced vermillion.

 

So the short answer is, mineral red (boxcar red) into the 1920s, then vermillion 1920s until 1967, with many remaining vermillion to the end.  White lettering into the 1920s on mineral red, then yellow lettering on vermillion 1920s to 1950s, then white lettering on vermillion 1950s, then white on BSB 1967 when repainted or if new.

 

   Doug Paasch

 

 


Re: Photo: NYC Gondola 501235 With Heavily Weathered Canisters

Benjamin Hom
 

Chris S. wrote:
"Says Coalburg Ohio. That was a ex LS&MS yard that was turned into a scrap yard.(Midwest Steel and Alloy Scrap) Erie's lone 44 tonner was the shop switchers and the first GG1 "rivets" was scrapped there. It is all a field now."

"Old Rivets" being scrapped in Ohio is news to me.  PRR 4800 (ex-4899) is currently at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania.


Ben Hom


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

O Fenton Wells
 

And SRR in the Brosnan era


On Jul 4, 2021, at 7:14 PM, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:

It seems a few large roads painted the cabooses in the same freight car color as their boxcar fleets into the 1930s. B&O, NYC, and PRR come to mind. 
 
IIRC, B&O introduced the brighter Devils Red I’m the late 1930s. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On Jul 4, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Jeffrey Gray <bigsix@...> wrote:

Yes, back to the question. Red fades and was a problem. But, B&O "Devils Red" maybe late 1930s and NKP post war I am pretty sure. PRR, NYC, et al, stayed with the more brown color (this is best way I know not to flame the fires of PRR folks, apology is extended).



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Jim Betz <jimbetz@...>
Date: 7/4/21 3:16 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Ralph,
  In the Coast Guard we called zinc chromate "green death".  The drill was
Chip, Paint, and Soogey.  Chip off the old paint until you got down to bare
metal (using a chipping hammer), paint it (zinc chromate, red lead, and lastly
color), and soogey (keep it clean by scrubbing with a stiff brush and washing
the dirt and soap into the sea.  One of the primary tasks of anyone with a
Seaman's rank and even a few 3rd class Petty Officer's from time to time.
                                                                                        - Jim


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Eric Hansmann
 

It seems a few large roads painted the cabooses in the same freight car color as their boxcar fleets into the 1930s. B&O, NYC, and PRR come to mind. 
 
IIRC, B&O introduced the brighter Devils Red I’m the late 1930s. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On Jul 4, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Jeffrey Gray <bigsix@...> wrote:

Yes, back to the question. Red fades and was a problem. But, B&O "Devils Red" maybe late 1930s and NKP post war I am pretty sure. PRR, NYC, et al, stayed with the more brown color (this is best way I know not to flame the fires of PRR folks, apology is extended).



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Jim Betz <jimbetz@...>
Date: 7/4/21 3:16 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Ralph,
  In the Coast Guard we called zinc chromate "green death".  The drill was
Chip, Paint, and Soogey.  Chip off the old paint until you got down to bare
metal (using a chipping hammer), paint it (zinc chromate, red lead, and lastly
color), and soogey (keep it clean by scrubbing with a stiff brush and washing
the dirt and soap into the sea.  One of the primary tasks of anyone with a
Seaman's rank and even a few 3rd class Petty Officer's from time to time.
                                                                                        - Jim


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Bruce Smith
 

Dennis, Folks,

Part of the issue with defining the color of red lead primer is that, as a natural metal oxide, its color can vary. 

Webster's dictionary defines red lead as "an orange-red to brick-red lead oxide Pb3O4 used in storage-battery plates, in glass and ceramics, and as a paint pigment." 

Thus, no need to adulterate red lead to get an oxide red color.

I have seen a number of photos with a brick red color to the red lead primer. 

Frankly, if it is bright orange, I suspect that it is not pure Pb3O4 😉

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 4, 2021 1:58 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors
 
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 11:01 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:
Red lead was extremely common in RR shops. But as noted, it was generally a primer and had an oxide red color. 
Not unless it has been adulterated with something. The red lead primer I'm familiar with has a bright orange color. The iron workers at the transit authority used it a lot for priming the overlapping surfaces of repairs on the elevated structure; priming both surfaces and bolting the parts up while the paint was still wet, back in the seventies when I was there.

Here's a color reference: https://colourlex.com/project/red-lead/

Dennis Storzek


Re: Ajax brake parts

Tim O'Connor
 


I agree with Dan, I had thought Terry Wegmann sold his AB brake set thru Details West.


On 7/3/2021 8:32 AM, Brian Carlson via groups.io wrote:
Thanks all. These probably came from a Details West package and were orphaned on the workbench. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Jul 3, 2021, at 8:09 AM, Dan Smith <espeefan@...> wrote:

On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 02:20 AM, Bryian Sones wrote:
Nelson,
 
Isn't it just the Details West 1021 brake kit in white?
Over the years I think the contents of the kit and sprue size grew to add more parts.
Here is a link of an early kit that had some white metal part added.
 
 
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
 
 
On Friday, July 2, 2021, 07:16:26 PM PDT, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:
 
 
So where did Martin get them? He didn't do them himself.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of gary laakso
Sent: Friday, July 2, 2021 9:14 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ajax brake parts

These sets were supplied with Sunshine kits.

Gary Laakso
Northwest of Mike Brock

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Friday, July 2, 2021 7:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ajax brake parts

Not sure, but could be Eastern Car Works.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Carlson via groups.io
Sent: Friday, July 2, 2021 8:01 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Ajax brake parts

Need some help identifying the sprue I found on my workbench. It’s an Ajax brake wheel and related parts. Does anyone recognize the manufacturer?

Brian J. Carlson



Brian, Bryian and all,

Andy Carlson is correct, this brake detail set was produced by Terry Wegmann.

Terry produced this set in a couple of different versions, one specifically for his Pacific Freight Enterprises PFE R-40-18, 19, 21 car and one that was a more generic version that had additional brake lever components, some of which were for more modern cars. The tooling evolved over time.

Details West marketed them as a separately packaged part.

Martin bought these parts from Terry several times to include in the Sunshine kits along with a separate tank, AB valve, cylinder sprue. I'm sure many remember that part too.

Dan Smith


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

akerboomk
 

To expand on Dave Parker’s post…

 

In the 1900 / 1907 painting guides for the B&M (Available from the B&MRRHS), caboose sides were “Brown”, ends (including cupola ends) were “Red”.

 

So on the B&M the [partial] use of red dates back to at least that point…

 

Ken

 

 


--
Ken Akerboom


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Tony Thompson
 

Garth Groff wrote:

The Southern Pacific painted caboose ends a bright orange, probably starting in the 1950s.
Actually that started in 1955. Ends were Daylight Orange and so specified on the lettering drawing.

Tony Thompson
tony@signaturepress.com


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Dave,

The Sacramento Northern did this with their cabooses from at least the late 1930s. The practice stopped on some repaints of cabooses obtained from the WP in the early 1950s as far as I can tell from photos. Some of their older cabooses were still painted this way until retired in the late 1950s. Attached is a Will Whittaker photo (poorly focused, one of his rare booboos) showing this paint scheme around 1948. I have seen this in color films as well, and I can also spot it in some well-balanced black-and-white photos.

The Southern Pacific painted caboose ends a bright orange, probably starting in the 1950s.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 1:38 PM Dave Parker via groups.io <spottab=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
There is  a fascinating book called "The Painting of Railway Equipment" by B E Miller that dates to 1924:

https://books.google.com/books/about/Painting_of_Railway_Equipment.html?id=3HA5AAAAMAAJ

He lists these red pigments:  vermilion (mercury sulfide), red lead, Venetian red, Indian red, and Tuscan red.  Based on the descriptions, I don't think there would have been any problem formulating a paint that would correspond to our current impression of "caboose red".  I think cadmium-based paints provided (and still do) the most vivid reds, but I'm guessing they were too pricey for use on rail cars.

In the FWIW department, at that time the B&M's cabooses had distinctly red ends, but freight-car color (i.e., oxide) sides.  I don't know if this practice was common on other roads.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: NYC reblt gon

nyc3001 .
 
Edited

To add, most of the "USRA" gondolas that the Central owned were actually built as all-steel clones from 1925 to 1929. The actual wood-sheathed USRA gons (that were later rebuilt into the F&C kit's prototype) numbered 2000 (iirc) while the steel clones numbered 8499. All except the last few orders (which had Dreadnaught ends) had Murphy ends and differed in some small ways from the actual USRA gons which had seams on the bottoms and ends of the car sides after they were rebuilt as steel cars.

But from ~1948, the steel clones were rebuilt with new sides that had a slight fishbelly and new IDN ends. So, in 1948-1952, you could actually see at least four common variants of "USRA" gons (if I'm not mistaken, there were taller USRA clones and cars rebuilt as very short auto-frame cars too).

I'm also trying to determine is the rate at which the clones were rebuilt into fishbelly-side cars so I can represent a mix of these gons accurately in my own 1951 Central collection.

-Phil


Re: Car Builder’s Dictionaries

Ed Mims
 

Mike, you are correct I should not have brought this up with this group but my reason was it is just another name of a device used incorrectly. To be clear a speed recorder was never mounted on the end of an axle as the use of the name "speed recorder" in the model world implies. Speed recorders were and are always on the interior of a locomotive.

Ed Mims


Re: NYC reblt gon

nyc3001 .
 

It would most likely have been red at the time. Some NYC hoppers, gondolas, and flatcars were black before 1941, but they were repainted to oxide red after that date.

-Phil


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Jeffrey Gray <bigsix@...>
 

Yes, back to the question. Red fades and was a problem. But, B&O "Devils Red" maybe late 1930s and NKP post war I am pretty sure. PRR, NYC, et al, stayed with the more brown color (this is best way I know not to flame the fires of PRR folks, apology is extended).



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Jim Betz <jimbetz@...>
Date: 7/4/21 3:16 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Ralph,
  In the Coast Guard we called zinc chromate "green death".  The drill was
Chip, Paint, and Soogey.  Chip off the old paint until you got down to bare
metal (using a chipping hammer), paint it (zinc chromate, red lead, and lastly
color), and soogey (keep it clean by scrubbing with a stiff brush and washing
the dirt and soap into the sea.  One of the primary tasks of anyone with a
Seaman's rank and even a few 3rd class Petty Officer's from time to time.
                                                                                        - Jim


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Jerry Michels
 

Hi Jim, well to put in my comment, but for the MP not GN, the MP painted its cabooses 'caboose red' as did the Iron Mountain before the MP bought it in 1915.  So caboose red was an early paint .  We also have paper documents that say the IM used caboose red, At some time, probably the 1920s the railroad changed to 'boxcar red' which lasted until the 1970s when the MP went back to 'caboose red" but probably no the original 'caboose red' but more of a 'vermilion red.' There was a touch of orange in it. The story is complex some were freshly painted 'boxcar red' and some the newer 'vermillion red' and part of the story has to do with how the cabooses were repainted, and the fading of a brand of 'caboose red' to orange if it was washed with alkali rather than acid detergent. This led to the story that the MP painted cabooses orange,  They didn't, it was faded vermillion. The final color was an Imron Bright caboose red.  By the way, many years ago RMC had a misprint stating that the caboose they pictured was painted blue.  Never happened. If anyone wants more details on caboose colors on the MoPac, I wrote a book on them. Probably still available somewhere.

Jerry  Michels


Re: Car Builder’s Dictionaries

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 11:27 AM, Chris Barkan wrote:
Both the 1879 and the 1888 editions also name something called a "pull-iron" (item 58 in their list of terms) but I do not see it any of the diagrams.  I would be interested to learn what item on the car this refers to.
From the definition in the 1879 CBD I would suspect this later became the "roping staple".

Dennis Storzek


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Jim Betz
 

Ralph,
  In the Coast Guard we called zinc chromate "green death".  The drill was
Chip, Paint, and Soogey.  Chip off the old paint until you got down to bare
metal (using a chipping hammer), paint it (zinc chromate, red lead, and lastly
color), and soogey (keep it clean by scrubbing with a stiff brush and washing
the dirt and soap into the sea.  One of the primary tasks of anyone with a
Seaman's rank and even a few 3rd class Petty Officer's from time to time.
                                                                                        - Jim


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Jim Betz
 

  OK - we all agree that the paint called "red lead" wasn't very red.  Done.
But this thread has been entirely hijacked by those posting - correct information
that isn't exactly "on topic"  ... the OP wants to know "when were cabooses
first painted Red?".  Not 'red lead', not the earlier 'iron oxide' but the classic
red caboose.  Yes, the actual color varied from RR to RR - he's not interested
in that variation but rather wants some idea of when the use of Red paint for
cabeese was first used/became so common across all the RRs.
  And, if you know, when it was first used on the GN (because that is his
RR of primary interest).
  I suspect he may also like to know "why?" ... why was it adopted for
cabeese for so many RRs?  My -guess- about that is ... wait for it ... 
simply to improve visibility.

  Come on guys - someone has to know the answer.  Even if it is only for
their RR and not the GN.
                                                                                   - Jim


Re: Photo: NYC Gondola 501235 With Heavily Weathered Canisters

Tim O'Connor
 

On 7/4/2021 12:26 PM, schmuck804_99 via groups.io wrote:
Says Coalburg Ohio. That was a ex LS&MS yard that was turned into a scrap yard.(Midwest Steel and Alloy Scrap) Erie's lone 44 tonner was the shop switchers and the first GG1 "rivets" was scrapped there. It is all a field now.

Chris S.

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 11:01 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:
Red lead was extremely common in RR shops. But as noted, it was generally a primer and had an oxide red color. 
Not unless it has been adulterated with something. The red lead primer I'm familiar with has a bright orange color. The iron workers at the transit authority used it a lot for priming the overlapping surfaces of repairs on the elevated structure; priming both surfaces and bolting the parts up while the paint was still wet, back in the seventies when I was there.

Here's a color reference: https://colourlex.com/project/red-lead/

Dennis Storzek


Re: Car Builder’s Dictionaries

Kenneth Montero
 

It appears that sill steps and running boards are standard nomenclature defined by federal statute, whereas the same statute used both grab irons and handholds as standard nomenclature.
 
Can we agree at least to using the above as standard nomenclature?
 
Ken Montero
 

On 07/04/2021 2:27 PM Chris Barkan <cplbarkan@...> wrote:
 
 
Thanks for the correction on this point Dave. Throughout my industry career, I was taught that they were properly referred to as "hand holds", and never thought it necessary to check on this; however, now that I have I see that unlike the other terms we are discussing, "grab iron" and "hand hold" both date back at least as far as the 1888 Car-Builder's Dictionary https://library.si.edu/digital-library/book/carbuildersdict00forn (see pp 84 & 87, respectively) and if anything "grab iron" might be the more prominent term.  Figures 93-94 & 95-96 (illustrating an NYC&HR standard boxcar) only shows ladders on the end of the car but not the side.  The "grab iron/handhold" rungs of the end ladder are referred to as "ladder rounds".  There is a "roof grab iron" and two vertical "end grab irons" on the end, and a vertical "corner grab iron" on the side of the car above the sill step. However, Figures 97-101 illustrating a NYWS&B standard boxcar has a horizontal grab iron on the end of the side of the car above the sill step.  The "roof grab iron" on the latter is also differently shaped than on the NYC&HR car.  These inconsistencies were a safety hazard and formed part of the rational for Section 4 of the Safety Appliance Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_Safety_Appliance_Act#1893_act (see summary below)

Section 4
Secure grab irons.  After July 1, 1895, unless Interstate Commerce Commission says otherwise, unlawful for RR company to use any car in interstate commerce that doesn't have secure grab irons or handholds in the   ends and sides of each car (more secure for men who couple and uncouple cars.)

This was further amended by Congress in 1910 (see Section 2) and especially Section 3 directing the ICC to establish standards for the "...number, dimensions, location, and manner of application of the appliances provided for by Section two..."   https://govtrackus.s3.amazonaws.com/legislink/pdf/stat/36/STATUTE-36-Pg298a.pdf

Interestingly, neither term appears in the original (1879) edition of the Car-Builder's Dictionary https://library.si.edu/digital-library/book/carbuildersdicti00mast for the simple reason that these items are largely absent from the boxcars that are illustrated (see pp 216-226).  The vertical grab iron on the side of the car is termed "corner handle" (item 102) and the horizontal handholds on the ends are referred to as "ladder-rounds" (item 59) and "ladder handle" (item 60).

Both the 1879 and the 1888 editions also name something called a "pull-iron" (item 58 in their list of terms) but I do not see it any of the diagrams.  I would be interested to learn what item on the car this refers to.
-- 
Chris Barkan
Champaign, IL

7081 - 7100 of 192633