Date   

Photo: Damaged NWX/Canadian Club Reefer 14471 (1935)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Damaged NWX/Canadian Club Reefer 14471 (1935)

Photo from Helena History website:

http://www.helenahistory.org/liquor-warehouse-in-ruins-1935.html

Caption:

“Talk had already begun by April of 1935 of moving the operations of the state liquor warehouse to a bigger facility. At the time, it was housed in the former Lindsay Fruit Co. building on Bozeman St. in the Sixth Ward. Under consideration for a new warehouse was the repurposing of the largely disused Nabisco factory at 1308 Boulder Avenue.

Before a move could be undertaken, the devastating earthquakes in October of 1935 heavily damaged both the former fruit company warehouse and the Nabisco factory, making the construction of a modern warehouse a priority.”

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

robert netzlof <rtnetzlof@...>
 

The car to the left of the K7 is a K8. As the the K7 vs K7a: It looks to me that the notches which would retain the cross members bearing the upper deck are empty, that is, no cross pieces hence no upper deck. Does that make it a K7? See K7a diagram and photo at: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=k7a.gif&sel=stk&sz=sm&fr=

----- Original Message -----
From: "Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;)" <claus@...>
To: "main" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, July 5, 2021 10:22:31 AM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Hi Bob and List Members,

I think I can just make out the class marking as K7a on the right-most stock car. My memory (could be wrong) is that these cars were rebuilt from class X24 auto box cars.

Also note the ARMOUR stock car discernable between the two PRR cars.

Claus Schlund



----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Chaparro via groups.io
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2021 12:03 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)


Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Photo from the Library of Congress:

https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8c19605/

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA




--
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Had I been looking at my emails yesterday, on this topic I would have observed that depending on the railroad, cabooses were painted red, white on some roads, and as well know, blue.

 

Happy Fourth of July, a day late.

 

Schuyler


Re: Photo: NYC Gondola 501235 With Heavily Weathered Canisters

William Dale
 

Group, 
     Does anyone know what happened to the presentation material on these cement gons from the late Ron Parisi? He had done a great amount of research and modeling as well.

Billy


Re: Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

devansprr
 

ugh...

It's back.

The term bearing in the broad sense means a method to support the relative motion of one surface against another - a bearing surface, usually under some manner of "load" that need to be transferred from one surface to the other..

The vast majority of bearings are designed to reduce friction, but they are not "anti-friction". Outside of roller bearings, pretty much ALL bearings have some amount of friction.

In the case of railroad journal bearings of the original types (you can do patent searches back to the early 1800's on railroad bearings as friction bearings, to include a number of British patents), when first starting the train, the axles and bearings are truly in direct contact and suffering from significant sliding friction between the axle and the bearing.

Within a few axle revolutions, with enough oil and some manner of helping spread the oil, if the speed was high enough (I suspect at least one and maybe two mph), an oil film between the two surfaces would be established that turned the bearing into a hydrodynamic bearing, where there was no longer direct contact between the axle and bearing. But with one side of that oil film "stuck" to the axle, and the other side of that oil film "stuck" to the bearing, there is significant shear within that fluid, and shear in fluid is itself, by nearly every properly trained mechanical engineer I have ever known, referred to as "friction", which is why the oil in your car engine, which also has hydrodynamic bearings on the crank shaft, also gets hot (from the friction!) (And that same shear friction is why pressure drops along a pipe moving fluids - that is also friction.)

Which is why it was so hard to start a train with "friction bearings" and why engineers, especially steam locomotive engineers, would "take slack" so that only a few cars at a time were starting, otherwise the direct contact friction in the cars that have not yet established the hydrodynamic oil film was so high it would stall the locomotive, or exert so much drawbar pull to cause the drivers to slip.

A roller bearing can properly be called an "Anti-friction" bearing because there is NO sliding between the contact surfaces inside the roller bearing that transmit the load (weight of the car) from the truck sideframe to the axle - the contact is just like the wheel rolling on the rail.

Bottom line, there is significant friction occurring in the original railroad journal bearings, and almost no "friction" in today's modern roller bearings (there is some friction in the bearing cages, but that friction is not related to transmitting the weight of the car to the axle.)

What I really don't understand is where does this seemingly "hate" for Timken come from? Roller bearings, especially Timken's tapered roller bearings, where a vast improvement in safety and economy of freight rail. The fact that Timken stuck with it for nearly 50 years before wide spread adoption is amazing to me. The real tragedy is the refusal of railroad line engineers to adopt the technology. That refusal to accept change is not unique - having studied "disruptive" technologies one finds this to be quite common across many industries - a current example being SpaceX's Falcon 9 taking over the commercial satellite launch market from aerospace companies that refused to modernize their rockets (effectively derivatives of late 1950 ICBM's.)

The 1929 report of a test train of 100 roller bearing equipped hoppers on the PRR helps illustrate the inability of the PRR's engineering staff to understand how roller bearings work. There is a copy of the draft report in the PA state Archives that I hope to copy and analyze some day but a quick review of it about 5 years ago highlighted the almost irrational resistance to the roller bearing concept by a number of PRR engineers (that draft has a LOT of pencil'd markups.)

If there is ANY criticism due, it is of the RR's line engineers (not the locomotive engineers), refusal to change to a safer and more efficient technology (although there were economic dis-incentives to adopt roller bearings in freight service.)

Dave Evans


Re: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Bruce Smith
 

Claus,

No need to try to decipher the markings. The only possible cars for the right-hand car would be K7 or K7A. Since the car to the left is a K8, that makes the car to the right a K7A due to the matching height. 
K7 11' 8 1/4"
K7A 12' 3 1/8"
K8 12' 6"

Of course, the rarity of the K7 at this time also makes it very unlikely that one is pictured.

And yes, the K7A class was rebuilt from X24 automobile cars, and show the distinctive "I can't decide if I want a Pratt or Howe truss" design of the PRR's X23 series of cars 😉

The K7A is available from BLI in both HO and N scale and the K8 is available in HO from F&C, making almost the entire range of PRR stock cars of my era (just 3 years after the photo) available!

Regards,
Bruce 
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;) <claus@...>
Sent: Monday, July 5, 2021 9:22 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
Hi Bob and List Members,
 
I think I can just make out the class marking as K7a on the right-most stock car. My memory (could be wrong) is that these cars were rebuilt from class X24 auto box cars.
 
Also note the ARMOUR stock car discernable between the two PRR cars.
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2021 12:03 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Photo from the Library of Congress:

https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8c19605/

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;)
 


Hi Bob and List Members,
 
I think I can just make out the class marking as K7a on the right-most stock car. My memory (could be wrong) is that these cars were rebuilt from class X24 auto box cars.
 
Also note the ARMOUR stock car discernable between the two PRR cars.
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2021 12:03 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Photo from the Library of Congress:

https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8c19605/

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

Tim O'Connor
 


I disagree. By "definition" a bearing is something that bears a weight, if words mean anything.

I have heard railroaders use the 'friction bearing' term. Terminology in the Cyclopedias is technical
and is intended for use by mech engineers machinists draftsman and skilled maintenance and construction
workers so no doubt others made up their own terms that varied by place and time.


On 7/4/2021 11:30 PM, D. Scott Chatfield wrote

But were they using "friction bearing" to describe a type of journal bearing or were they using it correctly to describe one type of side plate bearing?

"Friction bearing" is an oxymoron since a bearing by definition is an anti-friction device.  

As has been pointed out to me in the past, plain journal bearings are a type of sleeve bearing, and the "solid" journal bearing is a variant developed later (1940s?), so not all plain bearings are solid bearings.  But before the development of the roller journal bearing there was really no reason to call journal bearings anything other than just journal bearings.  The use of the inaccurate and unnecessary term "friction bearing" had to start somewhere. 


Scott Chatfield


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

Chris Barkan
 


--
Chris Barkan
Champaign, IL


Re: Photo: NYC Gondola 501235 With Heavily Weathered Canisters

Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;)
 


Hi Bob and List Members,
 
To my somewhat inexperienced eyes, this gon looks like it may have started out in life as a USRA mill gon (or clone of such). Do others agree?
 
Claus Schlund
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2021 12:15 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: NYC Gondola 501235 With Heavily Weathered Canisters

Photo: NYC Gondola 501235 With Heavily Weathered Canisters

Photo from the New York Central Historical Society:

https://nycshs.omeka.net/items/show/96588

The car has been “white lined” so probably on way to scrapper.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Philip Dove
 

iirc the Nickel plate went over to some kind of bright red in 1948 or a bit later. In the UK some pre 1923 railway companies painted just the end of the guards vans (caboose equivalents) bright red to aid visibility. The post 1923 big four didn't perpetuate the idea.



-------- Original message --------
From: Jerry Michels <gjmichels53@...>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2021, 20:30
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors
Hi Jim, well to put in my comment, but for the MP not GN, the MP painted its cabooses 'caboose red' as did the Iron Mountain before the MP bought it in 1915.  So caboose red was an early paint .  We also have paper documents that say the IM used caboose red, At some time, probably the 1920s the railroad changed to 'boxcar red' which lasted until the 1970s when the MP went back to 'caboose red" but probably no the original 'caboose red' but more of a 'vermilion red.' There was a touch of orange in it. The story is complex some were freshly painted 'boxcar red' and some the newer 'vermillion red' and part of the story has to do with how the cabooses were repainted, and the fading of a brand of 'caboose red' to orange if it was washed with alkali rather than acid detergent. This led to the story that the MP painted cabooses orange,  They didn't, it was faded vermillion. The final color was an Imron Bright caboose red.  By the way, many years ago RMC had a misprint stating that the caboose they pictured was painted blue.  Never happened. If anyone wants more details on caboose colors on the MoPac, I wrote a book on them. Probably still available somewhere.

Jerry  Michels


Re: Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

"before the development of the roller journal bearing” ...

This type bearing was known to the ROMANS and other early historical civilizations. Their versions were crude to be sure, but they well understood the principals involved. Wooden and stone, and later bronze, balls and rollers were used. Their early purpose was mostly to move or rotate heavy weights. If you want the roots of the terms used for bearings, you’ll need to go back a LONG ways.

It’s not the roller principal that’s important here, but the ability to make PRECISION components capable of running at higher speeds. This developed sometime in the mid-1800s, and was well accomplished by WWI. It was the ability to make precision anti-friction bearings at low cost in large quantities that revolutionized the industry.

Dan Mitchell
==========



On Jul 4, 2021, at 11:30 PM, D. Scott
 <blindog@...> wrote:

But were they using "friction bearing" to describe a type of journal bearing or were they using it correctly to describe one type of side plate bearing?

"Friction bearing" is an oxymoron since a bearing by definition is an anti-friction device.  

As has been pointed out to me in the past, plain journal bearings are a type of sleeve bearing, and the "solid" journal bearing is a variant developed later (1940s?), so not all plain bearings are solid bearings.  But before the development of the roller journal bearing there was really no reason to call journal bearings anything other than just journal bearings.  The use of the inaccurate and unnecessary term "friction bearing" had to start somewhere. 


Scott Chatfield


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Steve and Barb Hile
 

The Rock Island used their “Standard Freight Car Color” for cabooses until the mid 1950’s when they introduced a lighter caboose red.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Sent: Sunday, July 4, 2021 6:14 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

 

It seems a few large roads painted the cabooses in the same freight car color as their boxcar fleets into the 1930s. B&O, NYC, and PRR come to mind. 

 

IIRC, B&O introduced the brighter Devils Red I’m the late 1930s. 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 


On Jul 4, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Jeffrey Gray <bigsix@...> wrote:

Yes, back to the question. Red fades and was a problem. But, B&O "Devils Red" maybe late 1930s and NKP post war I am pretty sure. PRR, NYC, et al, stayed with the more brown color (this is best way I know not to flame the fires of PRR folks, apology is extended).

 

 

 

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Jim Betz <jimbetz@...>

Date: 7/4/21 3:16 PM (GMT-05:00)

Subject: Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

 

Ralph,
  In the Coast Guard we called zinc chromate "green death".  The drill was
Chip, Paint, and Soogey.  Chip off the old paint until you got down to bare
metal (using a chipping hammer), paint it (zinc chromate, red lead, and lastly
color), and soogey (keep it clean by scrubbing with a stiff brush and washing
the dirt and soap into the sea.  One of the primary tasks of anyone with a
Seaman's rank and even a few 3rd class Petty Officer's from time to time.
                                                                                        - Jim


Re: Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

D. Scott Chatfield
 

But were they using "friction bearing" to describe a type of journal bearing or were they using it correctly to describe one type of side plate bearing?

"Friction bearing" is an oxymoron since a bearing by definition is an anti-friction device.  

As has been pointed out to me in the past, plain journal bearings are a type of sleeve bearing, and the "solid" journal bearing is a variant developed later (1940s?), so not all plain bearings are solid bearings.  But before the development of the roller journal bearing there was really no reason to call journal bearings anything other than just journal bearings.  The use of the inaccurate and unnecessary term "friction bearing" had to start somewhere. 


Scott Chatfield


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Rob Schoenberg
 

Hi all,

The PRR painted cabin cars (caboose) bright red as far back as 1891.  (But soon changed to freight car color on the Pennsy as I'm guessing cost won out over safety?)

"The standard cabin car color is the pigment  known as scarlet lead chromate.  It is always purchased dry.  The material desired under this specification is the  basic chromate of  lead (PbCrO, PbO), rendered brilliant by  treatment with sulphuric acid, and as free as possible from all other substances."
The article continues with why bright red was chosen for safety and why red lead and genuine vermillion weren't chosen (too orange and too expensive respectively).


For tons more period information on paints on the railroad and more see:
http://prr.railfan.net/documents/Contributions_To_Practical_Railroad_Information_index.html
Contributions to Practical Railroad Information

"This is a series of articles by Dr. C. B. Dudley, Chemist, and F. N. Pease, Assistant Chemist, of the Pennsylvania Railroad, who are in charge of the testing laboratory at Altoona. They will give summaries of original researches and of work done in testing materials in the laboratory referred to, and very complete specifications of the different kinds of material which are used on the road and which must be bought by the Company."


Rob Schoenberg


Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

Bob Chaparro
 

Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

Way back on 6/6/16, Dave Evans defended Timken against the commonly publicized criticism that Timken invented the term “friction bearing” as a put-down against the makers of plain/solid wheel bearings.                                                                                                                                                                                

He stated, “Can we please stop claiming that the Timken Sales department "invented" the term friction bearing? In engineering, the term "friction bearing" predates the Timken company by something of the order of 100 years.”

He also stated, "… while that term may not have been widely used by many in the industry close to maintenance and operations, or accounting and sales forces that used the CBD, it was used by organizations such as the railroad division of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) - who actually designed the equipment.”

Has anyone actually documented that the railroad division of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers used the term “friction bearing”, as asserted by Dave?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

Bob Chaparro
 

Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

Way back on 6/6/16, Dave Evans defended Timken against the commonly publicized criticism that Timken invented the term “friction bearing” as a put-down against the makers of plain/solid wheel bearings.                                                                                                                                                                                

He stated, “Can we please stop claiming that the Timken Sales department "invented" the term friction bearing? In engineering, the term "friction bearing" predates the Timken company by something of the order of 100 years.”

He also stated, "… while that term may not have been widely used by many in the industry close to maintenance and operations, or accounting and sales forces that used the CBD, it was used by organizations such as the railroad division of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) - who actually designed the equipment.”

Has anyone actually documented that the railroad division of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers used the term “friction bearing”, as asserted by Dave?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Doug Paasch
 

This is a cross-posting I just placed on the GN list, but here is what I have on GN caboose colors:

 

I dug out my copy of “Rocky and Old Bill – A History of Great Northern Paint and Lettering Schemes” by Hank Stevens published and copyrighted in 1994.  According to it, the paint scheme for GN cabooses was “mineral red” with white lettering into the 1920s, and was changed to vermillion bodies with black roofs, trucks, underframes, end platforms, and ladders in the 1920’s, with some cabooses still in mineral red into the 1930s.  The lettering starting with the vermillion cabooses was yellow into the 1950s, and if repainted 1953-1956, lettering was changed to white.  The roofs started being painted silver in the early 1960s, although wood roofs could be painted silver or black even then.  And of course, 1967 was when Big Sky Blue replaced vermillion.

 

So the short answer is, mineral red (boxcar red) into the 1920s, then vermillion 1920s until 1967, with many remaining vermillion to the end.  White lettering into the 1920s on mineral red, then yellow lettering on vermillion 1920s to 1950s, then white lettering on vermillion 1950s, then white on BSB 1967 when repainted or if new.

 

   Doug Paasch

 

 


Re: Photo: NYC Gondola 501235 With Heavily Weathered Canisters

Benjamin Hom
 

Chris S. wrote:
"Says Coalburg Ohio. That was a ex LS&MS yard that was turned into a scrap yard.(Midwest Steel and Alloy Scrap) Erie's lone 44 tonner was the shop switchers and the first GG1 "rivets" was scrapped there. It is all a field now."

"Old Rivets" being scrapped in Ohio is news to me.  PRR 4800 (ex-4899) is currently at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania.


Ben Hom


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

O Fenton Wells
 

And SRR in the Brosnan era


On Jul 4, 2021, at 7:14 PM, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:

It seems a few large roads painted the cabooses in the same freight car color as their boxcar fleets into the 1930s. B&O, NYC, and PRR come to mind. 
 
IIRC, B&O introduced the brighter Devils Red I’m the late 1930s. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On Jul 4, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Jeffrey Gray <bigsix@...> wrote:

Yes, back to the question. Red fades and was a problem. But, B&O "Devils Red" maybe late 1930s and NKP post war I am pretty sure. PRR, NYC, et al, stayed with the more brown color (this is best way I know not to flame the fires of PRR folks, apology is extended).



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Jim Betz <jimbetz@...>
Date: 7/4/21 3:16 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Ralph,
  In the Coast Guard we called zinc chromate "green death".  The drill was
Chip, Paint, and Soogey.  Chip off the old paint until you got down to bare
metal (using a chipping hammer), paint it (zinc chromate, red lead, and lastly
color), and soogey (keep it clean by scrubbing with a stiff brush and washing
the dirt and soap into the sea.  One of the primary tasks of anyone with a
Seaman's rank and even a few 3rd class Petty Officer's from time to time.
                                                                                        - Jim

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