Date   

Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Philip Dove
 

iirc the Nickel plate went over to some kind of bright red in 1948 or a bit later. In the UK some pre 1923 railway companies painted just the end of the guards vans (caboose equivalents) bright red to aid visibility. The post 1923 big four didn't perpetuate the idea.



-------- Original message --------
From: Jerry Michels <gjmichels53@...>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2021, 20:30
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors
Hi Jim, well to put in my comment, but for the MP not GN, the MP painted its cabooses 'caboose red' as did the Iron Mountain before the MP bought it in 1915.  So caboose red was an early paint .  We also have paper documents that say the IM used caboose red, At some time, probably the 1920s the railroad changed to 'boxcar red' which lasted until the 1970s when the MP went back to 'caboose red" but probably no the original 'caboose red' but more of a 'vermilion red.' There was a touch of orange in it. The story is complex some were freshly painted 'boxcar red' and some the newer 'vermillion red' and part of the story has to do with how the cabooses were repainted, and the fading of a brand of 'caboose red' to orange if it was washed with alkali rather than acid detergent. This led to the story that the MP painted cabooses orange,  They didn't, it was faded vermillion. The final color was an Imron Bright caboose red.  By the way, many years ago RMC had a misprint stating that the caboose they pictured was painted blue.  Never happened. If anyone wants more details on caboose colors on the MoPac, I wrote a book on them. Probably still available somewhere.

Jerry  Michels


Re: Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

"before the development of the roller journal bearing” ...

This type bearing was known to the ROMANS and other early historical civilizations. Their versions were crude to be sure, but they well understood the principals involved. Wooden and stone, and later bronze, balls and rollers were used. Their early purpose was mostly to move or rotate heavy weights. If you want the roots of the terms used for bearings, you’ll need to go back a LONG ways.

It’s not the roller principal that’s important here, but the ability to make PRECISION components capable of running at higher speeds. This developed sometime in the mid-1800s, and was well accomplished by WWI. It was the ability to make precision anti-friction bearings at low cost in large quantities that revolutionized the industry.

Dan Mitchell
==========



On Jul 4, 2021, at 11:30 PM, D. Scott
 <blindog@...> wrote:

But were they using "friction bearing" to describe a type of journal bearing or were they using it correctly to describe one type of side plate bearing?

"Friction bearing" is an oxymoron since a bearing by definition is an anti-friction device.  

As has been pointed out to me in the past, plain journal bearings are a type of sleeve bearing, and the "solid" journal bearing is a variant developed later (1940s?), so not all plain bearings are solid bearings.  But before the development of the roller journal bearing there was really no reason to call journal bearings anything other than just journal bearings.  The use of the inaccurate and unnecessary term "friction bearing" had to start somewhere. 


Scott Chatfield


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Steve and Barb Hile
 

The Rock Island used their “Standard Freight Car Color” for cabooses until the mid 1950’s when they introduced a lighter caboose red.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Sent: Sunday, July 4, 2021 6:14 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

 

It seems a few large roads painted the cabooses in the same freight car color as their boxcar fleets into the 1930s. B&O, NYC, and PRR come to mind. 

 

IIRC, B&O introduced the brighter Devils Red I’m the late 1930s. 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 


On Jul 4, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Jeffrey Gray <bigsix@...> wrote:

Yes, back to the question. Red fades and was a problem. But, B&O "Devils Red" maybe late 1930s and NKP post war I am pretty sure. PRR, NYC, et al, stayed with the more brown color (this is best way I know not to flame the fires of PRR folks, apology is extended).

 

 

 

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Jim Betz <jimbetz@...>

Date: 7/4/21 3:16 PM (GMT-05:00)

Subject: Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

 

Ralph,
  In the Coast Guard we called zinc chromate "green death".  The drill was
Chip, Paint, and Soogey.  Chip off the old paint until you got down to bare
metal (using a chipping hammer), paint it (zinc chromate, red lead, and lastly
color), and soogey (keep it clean by scrubbing with a stiff brush and washing
the dirt and soap into the sea.  One of the primary tasks of anyone with a
Seaman's rank and even a few 3rd class Petty Officer's from time to time.
                                                                                        - Jim


Re: Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

D. Scott Chatfield
 

But were they using "friction bearing" to describe a type of journal bearing or were they using it correctly to describe one type of side plate bearing?

"Friction bearing" is an oxymoron since a bearing by definition is an anti-friction device.  

As has been pointed out to me in the past, plain journal bearings are a type of sleeve bearing, and the "solid" journal bearing is a variant developed later (1940s?), so not all plain bearings are solid bearings.  But before the development of the roller journal bearing there was really no reason to call journal bearings anything other than just journal bearings.  The use of the inaccurate and unnecessary term "friction bearing" had to start somewhere. 


Scott Chatfield


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

prrrob
 

Hi all,

The PRR painted cabin cars (caboose) bright red as far back as 1891.  (But soon changed to freight car color on the Pennsy as I'm guessing cost won out over safety?)

"The standard cabin car color is the pigment  known as scarlet lead chromate.  It is always purchased dry.  The material desired under this specification is the  basic chromate of  lead (PbCrO, PbO), rendered brilliant by  treatment with sulphuric acid, and as free as possible from all other substances."
The article continues with why bright red was chosen for safety and why red lead and genuine vermillion weren't chosen (too orange and too expensive respectively).


For tons more period information on paints on the railroad and more see:
http://prr.railfan.net/documents/Contributions_To_Practical_Railroad_Information_index.html
Contributions to Practical Railroad Information

"This is a series of articles by Dr. C. B. Dudley, Chemist, and F. N. Pease, Assistant Chemist, of the Pennsylvania Railroad, who are in charge of the testing laboratory at Altoona. They will give summaries of original researches and of work done in testing materials in the laboratory referred to, and very complete specifications of the different kinds of material which are used on the road and which must be bought by the Company."


Rob Schoenberg


Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

Bob Chaparro
 

Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

Way back on 6/6/16, Dave Evans defended Timken against the commonly publicized criticism that Timken invented the term “friction bearing” as a put-down against the makers of plain/solid wheel bearings.                                                                                                                                                                                

He stated, “Can we please stop claiming that the Timken Sales department "invented" the term friction bearing? In engineering, the term "friction bearing" predates the Timken company by something of the order of 100 years.”

He also stated, "… while that term may not have been widely used by many in the industry close to maintenance and operations, or accounting and sales forces that used the CBD, it was used by organizations such as the railroad division of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) - who actually designed the equipment.”

Has anyone actually documented that the railroad division of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers used the term “friction bearing”, as asserted by Dave?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

Bob Chaparro
 

Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

Way back on 6/6/16, Dave Evans defended Timken against the commonly publicized criticism that Timken invented the term “friction bearing” as a put-down against the makers of plain/solid wheel bearings.                                                                                                                                                                                

He stated, “Can we please stop claiming that the Timken Sales department "invented" the term friction bearing? In engineering, the term "friction bearing" predates the Timken company by something of the order of 100 years.”

He also stated, "… while that term may not have been widely used by many in the industry close to maintenance and operations, or accounting and sales forces that used the CBD, it was used by organizations such as the railroad division of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) - who actually designed the equipment.”

Has anyone actually documented that the railroad division of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers used the term “friction bearing”, as asserted by Dave?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Doug Paasch
 

This is a cross-posting I just placed on the GN list, but here is what I have on GN caboose colors:

 

I dug out my copy of “Rocky and Old Bill – A History of Great Northern Paint and Lettering Schemes” by Hank Stevens published and copyrighted in 1994.  According to it, the paint scheme for GN cabooses was “mineral red” with white lettering into the 1920s, and was changed to vermillion bodies with black roofs, trucks, underframes, end platforms, and ladders in the 1920’s, with some cabooses still in mineral red into the 1930s.  The lettering starting with the vermillion cabooses was yellow into the 1950s, and if repainted 1953-1956, lettering was changed to white.  The roofs started being painted silver in the early 1960s, although wood roofs could be painted silver or black even then.  And of course, 1967 was when Big Sky Blue replaced vermillion.

 

So the short answer is, mineral red (boxcar red) into the 1920s, then vermillion 1920s until 1967, with many remaining vermillion to the end.  White lettering into the 1920s on mineral red, then yellow lettering on vermillion 1920s to 1950s, then white lettering on vermillion 1950s, then white on BSB 1967 when repainted or if new.

 

   Doug Paasch

 

 


Re: Photo: NYC Gondola 501235 With Heavily Weathered Canisters

Benjamin Hom
 

Chris S. wrote:
"Says Coalburg Ohio. That was a ex LS&MS yard that was turned into a scrap yard.(Midwest Steel and Alloy Scrap) Erie's lone 44 tonner was the shop switchers and the first GG1 "rivets" was scrapped there. It is all a field now."

"Old Rivets" being scrapped in Ohio is news to me.  PRR 4800 (ex-4899) is currently at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania.


Ben Hom


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

O Fenton Wells
 

And SRR in the Brosnan era


On Jul 4, 2021, at 7:14 PM, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:

It seems a few large roads painted the cabooses in the same freight car color as their boxcar fleets into the 1930s. B&O, NYC, and PRR come to mind. 
 
IIRC, B&O introduced the brighter Devils Red I’m the late 1930s. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On Jul 4, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Jeffrey Gray <bigsix@...> wrote:

Yes, back to the question. Red fades and was a problem. But, B&O "Devils Red" maybe late 1930s and NKP post war I am pretty sure. PRR, NYC, et al, stayed with the more brown color (this is best way I know not to flame the fires of PRR folks, apology is extended).



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Jim Betz <jimbetz@...>
Date: 7/4/21 3:16 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Ralph,
  In the Coast Guard we called zinc chromate "green death".  The drill was
Chip, Paint, and Soogey.  Chip off the old paint until you got down to bare
metal (using a chipping hammer), paint it (zinc chromate, red lead, and lastly
color), and soogey (keep it clean by scrubbing with a stiff brush and washing
the dirt and soap into the sea.  One of the primary tasks of anyone with a
Seaman's rank and even a few 3rd class Petty Officer's from time to time.
                                                                                        - Jim


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Eric Hansmann
 

It seems a few large roads painted the cabooses in the same freight car color as their boxcar fleets into the 1930s. B&O, NYC, and PRR come to mind. 
 
IIRC, B&O introduced the brighter Devils Red I’m the late 1930s. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On Jul 4, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Jeffrey Gray <bigsix@...> wrote:

Yes, back to the question. Red fades and was a problem. But, B&O "Devils Red" maybe late 1930s and NKP post war I am pretty sure. PRR, NYC, et al, stayed with the more brown color (this is best way I know not to flame the fires of PRR folks, apology is extended).



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Jim Betz <jimbetz@...>
Date: 7/4/21 3:16 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Ralph,
  In the Coast Guard we called zinc chromate "green death".  The drill was
Chip, Paint, and Soogey.  Chip off the old paint until you got down to bare
metal (using a chipping hammer), paint it (zinc chromate, red lead, and lastly
color), and soogey (keep it clean by scrubbing with a stiff brush and washing
the dirt and soap into the sea.  One of the primary tasks of anyone with a
Seaman's rank and even a few 3rd class Petty Officer's from time to time.
                                                                                        - Jim


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Bruce Smith
 

Dennis, Folks,

Part of the issue with defining the color of red lead primer is that, as a natural metal oxide, its color can vary. 

Webster's dictionary defines red lead as "an orange-red to brick-red lead oxide Pb3O4 used in storage-battery plates, in glass and ceramics, and as a paint pigment." 

Thus, no need to adulterate red lead to get an oxide red color.

I have seen a number of photos with a brick red color to the red lead primer. 

Frankly, if it is bright orange, I suspect that it is not pure Pb3O4 😉

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 4, 2021 1:58 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors
 
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 11:01 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:
Red lead was extremely common in RR shops. But as noted, it was generally a primer and had an oxide red color. 
Not unless it has been adulterated with something. The red lead primer I'm familiar with has a bright orange color. The iron workers at the transit authority used it a lot for priming the overlapping surfaces of repairs on the elevated structure; priming both surfaces and bolting the parts up while the paint was still wet, back in the seventies when I was there.

Here's a color reference: https://colourlex.com/project/red-lead/

Dennis Storzek


Re: Ajax brake parts

Tim O'Connor
 


I agree with Dan, I had thought Terry Wegmann sold his AB brake set thru Details West.


On 7/3/2021 8:32 AM, Brian Carlson via groups.io wrote:
Thanks all. These probably came from a Details West package and were orphaned on the workbench. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Jul 3, 2021, at 8:09 AM, Dan Smith <espeefan@...> wrote:

On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 02:20 AM, Bryian Sones wrote:
Nelson,
 
Isn't it just the Details West 1021 brake kit in white?
Over the years I think the contents of the kit and sprue size grew to add more parts.
Here is a link of an early kit that had some white metal part added.
 
 
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
 
 
On Friday, July 2, 2021, 07:16:26 PM PDT, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:
 
 
So where did Martin get them? He didn't do them himself.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of gary laakso
Sent: Friday, July 2, 2021 9:14 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ajax brake parts

These sets were supplied with Sunshine kits.

Gary Laakso
Northwest of Mike Brock

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Friday, July 2, 2021 7:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Ajax brake parts

Not sure, but could be Eastern Car Works.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Carlson via groups.io
Sent: Friday, July 2, 2021 8:01 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Ajax brake parts

Need some help identifying the sprue I found on my workbench. It’s an Ajax brake wheel and related parts. Does anyone recognize the manufacturer?

Brian J. Carlson



Brian, Bryian and all,

Andy Carlson is correct, this brake detail set was produced by Terry Wegmann.

Terry produced this set in a couple of different versions, one specifically for his Pacific Freight Enterprises PFE R-40-18, 19, 21 car and one that was a more generic version that had additional brake lever components, some of which were for more modern cars. The tooling evolved over time.

Details West marketed them as a separately packaged part.

Martin bought these parts from Terry several times to include in the Sunshine kits along with a separate tank, AB valve, cylinder sprue. I'm sure many remember that part too.

Dan Smith


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

akerboomk
 

To expand on Dave Parker’s post…

 

In the 1900 / 1907 painting guides for the B&M (Available from the B&MRRHS), caboose sides were “Brown”, ends (including cupola ends) were “Red”.

 

So on the B&M the [partial] use of red dates back to at least that point…

 

Ken

 

 


--
Ken Akerboom


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Tony Thompson
 

Garth Groff wrote:

The Southern Pacific painted caboose ends a bright orange, probably starting in the 1950s.
Actually that started in 1955. Ends were Daylight Orange and so specified on the lettering drawing.

Tony Thompson
tony@signaturepress.com


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Dave,

The Sacramento Northern did this with their cabooses from at least the late 1930s. The practice stopped on some repaints of cabooses obtained from the WP in the early 1950s as far as I can tell from photos. Some of their older cabooses were still painted this way until retired in the late 1950s. Attached is a Will Whittaker photo (poorly focused, one of his rare booboos) showing this paint scheme around 1948. I have seen this in color films as well, and I can also spot it in some well-balanced black-and-white photos.

The Southern Pacific painted caboose ends a bright orange, probably starting in the 1950s.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 1:38 PM Dave Parker via groups.io <spottab=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
There is  a fascinating book called "The Painting of Railway Equipment" by B E Miller that dates to 1924:

https://books.google.com/books/about/Painting_of_Railway_Equipment.html?id=3HA5AAAAMAAJ

He lists these red pigments:  vermilion (mercury sulfide), red lead, Venetian red, Indian red, and Tuscan red.  Based on the descriptions, I don't think there would have been any problem formulating a paint that would correspond to our current impression of "caboose red".  I think cadmium-based paints provided (and still do) the most vivid reds, but I'm guessing they were too pricey for use on rail cars.

In the FWIW department, at that time the B&M's cabooses had distinctly red ends, but freight-car color (i.e., oxide) sides.  I don't know if this practice was common on other roads.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: NYC reblt gon

nyc3001 .
 
Edited

To add, most of the "USRA" gondolas that the Central owned were actually built as all-steel clones from 1925 to 1929. The actual wood-sheathed USRA gons (that were later rebuilt into the F&C kit's prototype) numbered 2000 (iirc) while the steel clones numbered 8499. All except the last few orders (which had Dreadnaught ends) had Murphy ends and differed in some small ways from the actual USRA gons which had seams on the bottoms and ends of the car sides after they were rebuilt as steel cars.

But from ~1948, the steel clones were rebuilt with new sides that had a slight fishbelly and new IDN ends. So, in 1948-1952, you could actually see at least four common variants of "USRA" gons (if I'm not mistaken, there were taller USRA clones and cars rebuilt as very short auto-frame cars too).

I'm also trying to determine is the rate at which the clones were rebuilt into fishbelly-side cars so I can represent a mix of these gons accurately in my own 1951 Central collection.

-Phil


Re: Car Builder’s Dictionaries

Ed Mims
 

Mike, you are correct I should not have brought this up with this group but my reason was it is just another name of a device used incorrectly. To be clear a speed recorder was never mounted on the end of an axle as the use of the name "speed recorder" in the model world implies. Speed recorders were and are always on the interior of a locomotive.

Ed Mims


Re: NYC reblt gon

nyc3001 .
 

It would most likely have been red at the time. Some NYC hoppers, gondolas, and flatcars were black before 1941, but they were repainted to oxide red after that date.

-Phil


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Jeffrey Gray <bigsix@...>
 

Yes, back to the question. Red fades and was a problem. But, B&O "Devils Red" maybe late 1930s and NKP post war I am pretty sure. PRR, NYC, et al, stayed with the more brown color (this is best way I know not to flame the fires of PRR folks, apology is extended).



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Jim Betz <jimbetz@...>
Date: 7/4/21 3:16 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Ralph,
  In the Coast Guard we called zinc chromate "green death".  The drill was
Chip, Paint, and Soogey.  Chip off the old paint until you got down to bare
metal (using a chipping hammer), paint it (zinc chromate, red lead, and lastly
color), and soogey (keep it clean by scrubbing with a stiff brush and washing
the dirt and soap into the sea.  One of the primary tasks of anyone with a
Seaman's rank and even a few 3rd class Petty Officer's from time to time.
                                                                                        - Jim

3161 - 3180 of 188721