Date   

Re: Photo: NYC Gondola 501235 With Heavily Weathered Canisters

schmuck804_99@...
 

I must have been wrong about "old rivets". Here are a string on GG1's being scrapped in 1979 at Midwest.

Chris S.


Re: Retired vs. Scrapped?

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

The Huckleberry Railroad in Flint, Michigan has a 3’ gauge D&RGW “short” caboose, #0526 that was officially “retired” by the D&RGW in the 1950’s, removed from the books, and was presumed scrapped for many years. But, instead it fell through a knothole in the records, and we have it, now restored. D&RGW fans are still confused. It now has good company since HRR also has K-27 #464, a good match for it. How that happened is a bit of a story, but don’t believe everything “in the books” … even good references can be wrong.

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Jul 5, 2021, at 2:39 PM, Charles Peck <lnnrr152@...> wrote:

The answer might be that there was little market for scrap during the Depression, At the same time, retiring unneeded 
equipment to get it off the books may have had advantages. 
Chuck Peck

On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 2:21 PM akerboomk <ken-akerboom@...> wrote:
Looking thru the B&M car disposal records (coming, eventually, to the web site), one thing I noticed...

Up thru 1930, cars were noted "sold for scrap"
Starting in 1931, cars were noted "Retired" (or "Retired a/c age")

Anyone know if there was an accounting or ICC reporting or ? change at that point in time?
Or is this just a "B&M Thing"

Note other cars were noted "Destroyed" (I assume that means "wrecked"), so it's not that.

-- 
Ken Akerboom




Re: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Damaged NWX/Canadian Club Reefer 14471 (1935)

Bruce Smith
 

Ken,

What follows is speculation and not specific knowledge, but...

Most likely so that loads that are wider than normal clearances can also be unloaded on what may be the public delivery track. And by that I mean that the loading dock could be rolled back a few inches to serve as the loading dock for a wider load, or mayhaps rolled back a few feet to get it out of the way.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, Al 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of akerboomk <ken-akerboom@...>
Sent: Monday, July 5, 2021 1:11 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Damaged NWX/Canadian Club Reefer 14471 (1935)
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
Any idea why the entire loading platform (in front of the NWX reefer, to the right of the pickup) appears to be on wheels?
(look at the bottom-right, near the front track)
--
Ken Akerboom


Re: Retired vs. Scrapped?

Charles Peck
 

The answer might be that there was little market for scrap during the Depression, At the same time, retiring unneeded 
equipment to get it off the books may have had advantages. 
Chuck Peck

On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 2:21 PM akerboomk <ken-akerboom@...> wrote:
Looking thru the B&M car disposal records (coming, eventually, to the web site), one thing I noticed...

Up thru 1930, cars were noted "sold for scrap"
Starting in 1931, cars were noted "Retired" (or "Retired a/c age")

Anyone know if there was an accounting or ICC reporting or ? change at that point in time?
Or is this just a "B&M Thing"

Note other cars were noted "Destroyed" (I assume that means "wrecked"), so it's not that.

--
Ken Akerboom


Re: Retired vs. Scrapped?

Tony Thompson
 

Ken Akerboom wrote:

Up thru 1930, cars were noted "sold for scrap"
Starting in 1931, cars were noted "Retired" (or "Retired a/c age")

Anyone know if there was an accounting or ICC reporting or ? change at that point in time?
Or is this just a "B&M Thing"

Note other cars were noted "Destroyed" (I assume that means "wrecked"), so it's not that.
In the SP car ledgers I have seen, “retired” meant “removed from revenue service.” Some cars were subsequently selected by the MOW people for their use (moving to a different ledger), and some cars were sold “as-is” to short lines, so “retired” did not mean demolished.

Tony Thompson
tony@...


Retired vs. Scrapped?

akerboomk
 

Looking thru the B&M car disposal records (coming, eventually, to the web site), one thing I noticed...

Up thru 1930, cars were noted "sold for scrap"
Starting in 1931, cars were noted "Retired" (or "Retired a/c age")

Anyone know if there was an accounting or ICC reporting or ? change at that point in time?
Or is this just a "B&M Thing"

Note other cars were noted "Destroyed" (I assume that means "wrecked"), so it's not that.

--
Ken Akerboom


Re: Canopy glue -another use

Jim Betz
 

George,
  Simply put the coupler "up" and apply a few drops of water and
the glue will soften and you can "fix" your mistake.  Let the
water sit on it for 15-30 minutes - or "as long as it takes".  It
will soften and you can take it apart and clean it all up and 
start over.
  Personally, I'd probably figure out a way to use styrene 
cement for anything related to "a coupler" because it will
provide a stronger/more positive joint.
                                                                                             - Jim


Re: Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

Jeff Ford
 

One of the greatest dis-incentives I've heard of was the various railroads' reluctance to spend the premium to equip interchange equipment with roller bearings.  The thought there being that the investment would disappear into interchange service and ultimately benefit "the competition."

It is bewildering that PRR or any of the other coal-hauling roads didn't see the benefit in equipping their captive fleets.  Makes you wonder what train lengths a C&O H-8 or PRR J-1 could start had the cars been equipped with roller bearings. 

$0.02,
-Jeff Ford
Sanger, Texas


Re: Photo: Damaged NWX/Canadian Club Reefer 14471 (1935)

akerboomk
 

Any idea why the entire loading platform (in front of the NWX reefer, to the right of the pickup) appears to be on wheels?
(look at the bottom-right, near the front track)
--
Ken Akerboom


Re: Photo: PRR Merchandise Service Boxcar 37007

Scott
 

That's an interesting car for sure.  With Pierre's oil canning effect that would make a neat HO scale car.   Did those cars make it off line at all or where they in dedicated service on specific routes?

Scott McDonald 


Re: Canopy glue -another use

G.J. Irwin
 

I have a friend whose seven year old son "purchased" an N Scale layout complete with equipment that is in the future for this group.  I needed to attach a Micro-Trains 1015 coupler to a Life-Like/Walthers switcher that was missing the attachment pin.  I tried canopy glue and it appears to have worked fine.

On the other hand, I tried canopy glue for an MTL coupler on an Intermountain tank car that is in the time period of this list, and managed to get a sufficient amount of glue into the coupler that it's now "frozen solid."  So I'm at .500, which would be great if I were a baseball player.  I suspect 'user error' in this second case.

--George Irwin


Re: Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Bruce Smith
 

Bob,

The presence or absence of an upper deck does not change the class. K7A stock cars were convertible. I have modeled one without the upper deck, as written up in TKM. My guess is that they were used without upper decks far more often than with the upper deck in place. Thus, the car in the photo is clearly a K7A.

Regards,
Bruce



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of robert netzlof <rtnetzlof@...>
Sent: Monday, July 5, 2021 11:16 AM
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

The car to the left of the K7 is a K8. As the the K7 vs K7a: It looks to me that the notches which would retain the cross members bearing the upper deck are empty, that is, no cross pieces hence no upper deck. Does that make it a K7? See K7a diagram and photo at: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=k7a.gif&sel=stk&sz=sm&fr=

----- Original Message -----
From: "Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;)" <claus@...>
To: "main" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, July 5, 2021 10:22:31 AM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Hi Bob and List Members,

I think I can just make out the class marking as K7a on the right-most stock car. My memory (could be wrong) is that these cars were rebuilt from class X24 auto box cars.

Also note the ARMOUR stock car discernable between the two PRR cars.

Claus Schlund



  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Bob Chaparro via groups.io
  To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
  Sent: Friday, July 02, 2021 12:03 PM
  Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)


  Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

  Photo from the Library of Congress:

  https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8c19605/

  Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

  Bob Chaparro

  Hemet, CA




--
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob






Photo: Damaged NWX/Canadian Club Reefer 14471 (1935)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Damaged NWX/Canadian Club Reefer 14471 (1935)

Photo from Helena History website:

http://www.helenahistory.org/liquor-warehouse-in-ruins-1935.html

Caption:

“Talk had already begun by April of 1935 of moving the operations of the state liquor warehouse to a bigger facility. At the time, it was housed in the former Lindsay Fruit Co. building on Bozeman St. in the Sixth Ward. Under consideration for a new warehouse was the repurposing of the largely disused Nabisco factory at 1308 Boulder Avenue.

Before a move could be undertaken, the devastating earthquakes in October of 1935 heavily damaged both the former fruit company warehouse and the Nabisco factory, making the construction of a modern warehouse a priority.”

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

robert netzlof <rtnetzlof@...>
 

The car to the left of the K7 is a K8. As the the K7 vs K7a: It looks to me that the notches which would retain the cross members bearing the upper deck are empty, that is, no cross pieces hence no upper deck. Does that make it a K7? See K7a diagram and photo at: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=k7a.gif&sel=stk&sz=sm&fr=

----- Original Message -----
From: "Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;)" <claus@...>
To: "main" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, July 5, 2021 10:22:31 AM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Hi Bob and List Members,

I think I can just make out the class marking as K7a on the right-most stock car. My memory (could be wrong) is that these cars were rebuilt from class X24 auto box cars.

Also note the ARMOUR stock car discernable between the two PRR cars.

Claus Schlund



----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Chaparro via groups.io
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2021 12:03 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)


Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Photo from the Library of Congress:

https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8c19605/

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA




--
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] caboose colors

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Had I been looking at my emails yesterday, on this topic I would have observed that depending on the railroad, cabooses were painted red, white on some roads, and as well know, blue.

 

Happy Fourth of July, a day late.

 

Schuyler


Re: Photo: NYC Gondola 501235 With Heavily Weathered Canisters

William Dale
 

Group, 
     Does anyone know what happened to the presentation material on these cement gons from the late Ron Parisi? He had done a great amount of research and modeling as well.

Billy


Re: Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

devansprr
 

ugh...

It's back.

The term bearing in the broad sense means a method to support the relative motion of one surface against another - a bearing surface, usually under some manner of "load" that need to be transferred from one surface to the other..

The vast majority of bearings are designed to reduce friction, but they are not "anti-friction". Outside of roller bearings, pretty much ALL bearings have some amount of friction.

In the case of railroad journal bearings of the original types (you can do patent searches back to the early 1800's on railroad bearings as friction bearings, to include a number of British patents), when first starting the train, the axles and bearings are truly in direct contact and suffering from significant sliding friction between the axle and the bearing.

Within a few axle revolutions, with enough oil and some manner of helping spread the oil, if the speed was high enough (I suspect at least one and maybe two mph), an oil film between the two surfaces would be established that turned the bearing into a hydrodynamic bearing, where there was no longer direct contact between the axle and bearing. But with one side of that oil film "stuck" to the axle, and the other side of that oil film "stuck" to the bearing, there is significant shear within that fluid, and shear in fluid is itself, by nearly every properly trained mechanical engineer I have ever known, referred to as "friction", which is why the oil in your car engine, which also has hydrodynamic bearings on the crank shaft, also gets hot (from the friction!) (And that same shear friction is why pressure drops along a pipe moving fluids - that is also friction.)

Which is why it was so hard to start a train with "friction bearings" and why engineers, especially steam locomotive engineers, would "take slack" so that only a few cars at a time were starting, otherwise the direct contact friction in the cars that have not yet established the hydrodynamic oil film was so high it would stall the locomotive, or exert so much drawbar pull to cause the drivers to slip.

A roller bearing can properly be called an "Anti-friction" bearing because there is NO sliding between the contact surfaces inside the roller bearing that transmit the load (weight of the car) from the truck sideframe to the axle - the contact is just like the wheel rolling on the rail.

Bottom line, there is significant friction occurring in the original railroad journal bearings, and almost no "friction" in today's modern roller bearings (there is some friction in the bearing cages, but that friction is not related to transmitting the weight of the car to the axle.)

What I really don't understand is where does this seemingly "hate" for Timken come from? Roller bearings, especially Timken's tapered roller bearings, where a vast improvement in safety and economy of freight rail. The fact that Timken stuck with it for nearly 50 years before wide spread adoption is amazing to me. The real tragedy is the refusal of railroad line engineers to adopt the technology. That refusal to accept change is not unique - having studied "disruptive" technologies one finds this to be quite common across many industries - a current example being SpaceX's Falcon 9 taking over the commercial satellite launch market from aerospace companies that refused to modernize their rockets (effectively derivatives of late 1950 ICBM's.)

The 1929 report of a test train of 100 roller bearing equipped hoppers on the PRR helps illustrate the inability of the PRR's engineering staff to understand how roller bearings work. There is a copy of the draft report in the PA state Archives that I hope to copy and analyze some day but a quick review of it about 5 years ago highlighted the almost irrational resistance to the roller bearing concept by a number of PRR engineers (that draft has a LOT of pencil'd markups.)

If there is ANY criticism due, it is of the RR's line engineers (not the locomotive engineers), refusal to change to a safer and more efficient technology (although there were economic dis-incentives to adopt roller bearings in freight service.)

Dave Evans


Re: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Bruce Smith
 

Claus,

No need to try to decipher the markings. The only possible cars for the right-hand car would be K7 or K7A. Since the car to the left is a K8, that makes the car to the right a K7A due to the matching height. 
K7 11' 8 1/4"
K7A 12' 3 1/8"
K8 12' 6"

Of course, the rarity of the K7 at this time also makes it very unlikely that one is pictured.

And yes, the K7A class was rebuilt from X24 automobile cars, and show the distinctive "I can't decide if I want a Pratt or Howe truss" design of the PRR's X23 series of cars 😉

The K7A is available from BLI in both HO and N scale and the K8 is available in HO from F&C, making almost the entire range of PRR stock cars of my era (just 3 years after the photo) available!

Regards,
Bruce 
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;) <claus@...>
Sent: Monday, July 5, 2021 9:22 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
Hi Bob and List Members,
 
I think I can just make out the class marking as K7a on the right-most stock car. My memory (could be wrong) is that these cars were rebuilt from class X24 auto box cars.
 
Also note the ARMOUR stock car discernable between the two PRR cars.
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2021 12:03 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Photo from the Library of Congress:

https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8c19605/

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;)
 


Hi Bob and List Members,
 
I think I can just make out the class marking as K7a on the right-most stock car. My memory (could be wrong) is that these cars were rebuilt from class X24 auto box cars.
 
Also note the ARMOUR stock car discernable between the two PRR cars.
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2021 12:03 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Photo: PRR Livestock Cars (1941)

Photo from the Library of Congress:

https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8c19605/

Scroll on the photo to enlarge it.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Friction Bearings – How Old Is This Term?

Tim O'Connor
 


I disagree. By "definition" a bearing is something that bears a weight, if words mean anything.

I have heard railroaders use the 'friction bearing' term. Terminology in the Cyclopedias is technical
and is intended for use by mech engineers machinists draftsman and skilled maintenance and construction
workers so no doubt others made up their own terms that varied by place and time.


On 7/4/2021 11:30 PM, D. Scott Chatfield wrote

But were they using "friction bearing" to describe a type of journal bearing or were they using it correctly to describe one type of side plate bearing?

"Friction bearing" is an oxymoron since a bearing by definition is an anti-friction device.  

As has been pointed out to me in the past, plain journal bearings are a type of sleeve bearing, and the "solid" journal bearing is a variant developed later (1940s?), so not all plain bearings are solid bearings.  But before the development of the roller journal bearing there was really no reason to call journal bearings anything other than just journal bearings.  The use of the inaccurate and unnecessary term "friction bearing" had to start somewhere. 


Scott Chatfield


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

7901 - 7920 of 193482