Date   

Re: [PM-list] NYC 90 ton flat

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Richard - I ran to my Cycs. thinking this would be an easy task to post a
picture, but realized I could find any. If you can send me the scan(s), I'd
be glad to post them on our ECW section so other people can refer to them,
too. - John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@opendoor.com>
To: "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>; <STMFC@egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: [PM-list] NYC 90 ton flat


I asked the PM-list:
I am working on an ECW 90 ton depressed center flat in HO and a pair of
the
same from GHQ in N and would like to decorate all of them in appropraite
NYC paint/decals. Are there any photographs of this flat available?
What
color did the NYC paint these cars?
I have both builder's and in-service photos of these cars which show both
original and later lettering arrangements. Though both photos are b/w, it
appears to me that, in both the 1941 builder's shot and the 1943
in-service
photo, the cars are painted mineral red; perhaps Jeff English can
enlighten
us further on this subject. I can scan my photos for you if you can
receive JPEG files.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



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Re: [PM-list] NYC 90 ton flat

Richard Hendrickson
 

I asked the PM-list:
I am working on an ECW 90 ton depressed center flat in HO and a pair of the
same from GHQ in N and would like to decorate all of them in appropraite
NYC paint/decals. Are there any photographs of this flat available? What
color did the NYC paint these cars?
I have both builder's and in-service photos of these cars which show both
original and later lettering arrangements. Though both photos are b/w, it
appears to me that, in both the 1941 builder's shot and the 1943 in-service
photo, the cars are painted mineral red; perhaps Jeff English can enlighten
us further on this subject. I can scan my photos for you if you can
receive JPEG files.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Side dump cars

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Bob Schliecher had an article maybe a decade ago on the side dump cars, and said that while intended mainly for ballast, on occasion they were used for coal. I think that while sometimes they were used for on-line coal service, I would be interested in any proof or hint that these cars went off-line. - John


Re: [PM-list] NYC 90 ton flat

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

I asked the PM-list:
I am working on an ECW 90 ton depressed center flat in HO and a pair of the
same from GHQ in N and would like to decorate all of them in appropraite
NYC paint/decals. Are there any photographs of this flat available? What
color did the NYC paint these cars?
George Hollwedel replied
If you get answers back direct, please send me cc's as I am doing the N
ones as well.

Hi George,

Well, the silence has been deafening. It's sort of funny to me, as PRR
modeler, since I have the feeling that if this had been a PRR question, I
would have had an answer within a few hours...I guess there isn't much
interest in the NYC out there <G-DUCKING!!!!>

I did find some drawings of the cars at George Elwoods amazing site:
http://www.dnaco.net/~gelwood/

the specific drawings are at:
http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/nyc/nyc-f21.gif
and car data at
http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/nyc/nyc-f22.gif

Unfortunately, these do not provide painting information, but I chose to
believe that these cars would have remained black into the mid 1950's. I
decaled my GHQ model with the available decals for #499030, a car built as
part of the original order in 1928 and with a capacity of 90.5 tons. I
found that the decal sheets from GHQ contained only minimal decals (things
like the blt date are missing and the car data is wrong) and I think that
at least some of the decals were a bit oversized, but I chose in this case
to simply follow the available GHQ decals. In reality, it painted and
decaled up into a nice little heavyweight flat after I tossed the supplied
grabs, and bent my own, and bottom mounted the supplied stirrup steps
(instead of mounting them on the side as the instructions suggest). My
brother seemed quite pleased to find it under the tree this Holiday season!
My HO model is still in construction, so I'm hoping for better information
for it!

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Crossposting

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Mike and friends,

I agree strongly with Dave on this one. Since I do all my e-mail at work
using stolen moments between tasks, I can't afford the time for deleting
duplicate messages.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Dave Nelson wrote:


Regarding cross posting (i.e., posting messages simultaneously to this list
and FC): I dunno what the list owner prefers, so Mike, speak up here, but
for myself, I *strongly* prefer people do not crosspost ....


Re: Crossposting

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Dave Nelson writes:


Regarding cross posting (i.e., posting messages simultaneously to this
list
and FC): I dunno what the list owner prefers, so Mike, speak up here, but
for myself, I *strongly* prefer people do not crosspost. With railroads &
ice hockey I get in excess of 100 e-mails a day right now
Hockey?

but that nonetheless, redundant messages are NOT welcomed by me.

I would think that, given the purpose of the STMFC, cross posting would be
kept at a minimum. I certainly don't advocate sending stuff to both sites.
If I wonder why an N&W hopper body is sitting behind a small bank in
Rawlins, WY, being used as a garbage disposal, I wouldn't inquire to the FC
but, would, instead, tweak those on the SMTFC...primarily because some might
find this interesting [ painfully, perhaps ] and someone in the group may
have actually been involved with having it put there. I said, BTW, IF I
wondered.....

Mike Brock
STMFC moderator


Prototype Modelers Seminar - East 2001

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Larry Kline asked me to post this. This looks like a great event.

Prototype Modelers Seminar - East 2001

1:00 PM Friday, March 23 through
6:00 PM Saturday, March 24, 2001
Holiday Inn, Monroeville (Pittsburgh), PA, (Exit 6, PA Turnpike)

This meet is a follow on to the Prototype Modelers Seminar held in
Baltimore, Maryland last March 31st and April 1st.

Activities will begin on Thursday evening, March 22 with operating sessions
at Bob Prehoda's HO scale Huntington Northern and Larry Kline's O scale
Western Maryland-Pittsburgh and West Virginia Bowest Interchange.

Several prototype oriented layouts will be open on Sunday, March 25th
including the Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad Museum's spectacular HO
scale Pittsburgh to Cumberland B&O, WM and P&LE layout (August 2000 Model
Railroader), Neal Schorr's Pennsylvania Railroad Middle Division, Bob
Prehoda and Larry Kline.

The model display and vendor rooms at the hotel will be available for setup
at 9:00 AM on Friday, March 23. There will be plenty of display space so
bring your models, including in-progress projects. The model display room
will be open throughout the meet. There will be no talks scheduled during
the hour after lunch on Saturday so that everyone can get together in the
model display room.

The presentations will start at 1:00 PM on Friday and continue through
Friday evening and all day Saturday with breaks for dinner on Friday and
lunch on Saturday. The scheduled presentations include:

John Greene Headend passenger cars and train passenger consists
Ralph Barger B&O diner classes through the years
Jeff English Early boxcars of the New York Central Lines
Bill Hanley Modeling B&O offset side hoppers
Tony Thompson SP gondolas - mill, GS, wood chip and sugar beet
John Wesner When boxcars became colorful - 1950s paint schemes
Todd Sullivan Hands-on weathering for your modern freight cars
Scott Chatfield The EMD Dash-2 series
Dick Flock Detailing trucks and trailers 1930s to 1960s
John Roberts Modeling the Appalachian coal industry
Larry Kline Steel industry traffic - car types and commodities
Al Westerfield LCL containers cars and loads through the years
Bob Prehoda Toward more realistic operations
John Teichmoeller Neville Island - prototype for a small industrial layout
Larry DeYoung Freight car distribution on Conrail
Bill Schaumburg Town Talk Tunnel III - Completing the scene
Ed Wolfe Interstate RR - Operations and equipment
Neal Schorr Modeling the Middle Division of the PRR
Jim Kelly Modeling after a prototype: the Tehachapi loop

Note: "Hands-On Weathering for Your Modern Freight Cars," by Todd Sullivan
will be given in two parts on Saturday.
Part I of this two part clinic will be "Learning to SEE how freight cars
weather," on Saturday morning. Part II will be two small "hands on"
workshops on Saturday afternoon. Those wishing to attend the afternoon
workshops should attend the morning talk. Participants should bring: one or
two models, prototype photos, a #2 soft bristle brush, a stiffer 1/3 inch
brush and an #0 or #00 sable brush and Floquil Polyscale or black, white,
oxide red, yellow ochre, and either depot buff or daylight orange.

Sign up early, as space is limited for the operating sessions and the
Hands-on weathering seminar.

Hotel at $59.00 per night. For hotel reservations call the Holiday Inn at
412-372-1022. Be sure to mention the "Prototype Modeler's Meet"

The meeting registration is $45.00.

For more information contact:
Dick Flock,
337 Elm Drive,
Greensburg, PA 15601.
Phone: 724-850-8882.
Email rflock@bellatlantic.net

Or Larry Kline
Klinelarrydanajon@worldnet.att.net

Please include a self-addressed stamped envelope with your postal inquiries

Registration Form------------------------------------------------------

The meeting registration is $45.00.

Name_____________________________________________________
Mailing Address__________________________________________
City_________________________________State___Zip_________
Email address:

Yes I would like to attend Todd Sullivan's Hands-On Weathering clinic


Crossposting

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Regarding cross posting (i.e., posting messages simultaneously to this list
and FC): I dunno what the list owner prefers, so Mike, speak up here, but
for myself, I *strongly* prefer people do not crosspost. With railroads &
ice hockey I get in excess of 100 e-mails a day right now (it'll peak at
over 200/day in April when the Sharks hit the playoffs). I'm an agressive
delete-er, but that nonetheless, redundant messages are NOT welcomed by me.
-----------------------------------
Dave Nelson


Re: [FC] Early Steel Ends

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

I always wonder about the railroad's philosophy of ever stronger ends to
deal with shifting loads. It's as if auto makers worried about making ever
stronger windshields rather than sitbelts and air bags, but it was about
four decades between the first steel ends and load restraining devices.
By the way, what is the earliest the Dreadnaught end was seen? I have a
date of 1925, but maybe someone can beat that? - John


Re: "TW" reefers

thompson@...
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
The other photo is undated but appears to have been taken at about the same
time. It shows CDLX 307 of the same series with fancy lettering and logo
for the Bear Creek Vinyard Assn. of Lodi, CA and the car is obviously
retired and out of service...FWIW, the last reweigh date on CDLX 307 was 12-34,
which was presumably the date when its billboard paint scheme was applied,
and it was only moderately dirty and weathered - ± about 5 years worth, I'd
estimate.
Richard's detective work is right on the money: the reweigh date is
almost certainly the date of transfer to CDLX from PFE, as that is the
month and year of the car's sale by PFE.
On the issue of when the billboard schemes were disallowed, the ICC set
July, 1937 as the date after which no such cars were to be accepted in
interchange. That's not to say that all cars lost their paint schemes then,
particularly if they were used entirely on a single road.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: CA Wine in NY (was "TW" reefer designation)

thompson@...
 

Dave Nelson said:
FWIW, within the wine industry it is normal practice to hold the threshold
for issuing an award down at the level of getting the liquid into the
bottle. The Orange County fair for instance, used to have over 1000 wines
present and the wines that did not receive at least a bronze medal award
could be counted on one hand [shudder].
This is very true. My father-in-law used to work for Italian Swiss
Colonies' ad agency, and the Calif. State Fair gave awards based on volume
categories; the top volume included only Gallo and Italian Swiss, so they
divided all the awards, and could claim to be "award winning" with complete
truth. As a wine fancier himself, he found this highly amusing.
But at least those giant wine concerns shipped by rail.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: SP Overnight scheme

thompson@...
 

John Nehrich writes:
I think the MDC car is an attempt to model the Santa Fe 7 panel Pratt
truss cars, but on their 1937 AAR box car body. But if I remember, their
earlier cast metal version had a Howe truss, which might have been a little
more useful on that car body.
And the problem is compounded by the fact that it doesn't LOOK like a
single-sheathed car, with too wide grooves for the boards, too shallow
relief for the bracing and lacking that "sunken cheek" look (like someone
with their false teeth out) of a true SS car. Finally, because of the
misfit of side to body, the ribs don't even reach the top and bottom of the
car. - John
Whether MDC intended to model ANY protoype is unknown and, based on their
track record, improbable. Most likely they were just doing another
"interesting" kit using existing resources, perhaps crudely aiming at some
prototype photo but possibly with an entirely generic goal. In any case, we
can agree the car is a poor model and matches no prototype, nor is it
readily kitbashable into anything prototypical. Definitely swap meet
material.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: CN flats

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

At 06:52 PM 1/1/01 -0500, you wrote:

I know that the CN had straight side flats akin to the Tichy kit, but they
also had cars in the 659000 series (the number Red Caboose uses). Were
these also straight side cars? Did they have 12 pockets? - John
They don't show up in my list of cars similar to the Red Caboose car.
I would guess -- NOT.



Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: "TW" reefers

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard - I'm not sure how much time was given to repaint the billboard
schemes. I kept coming back to the one article in the '42 MR that bemoaned
the total loss of these gaudy cars, and as a first-hand report as to the
overall effect. So when I say "pre-'38", I guess that could give a few
years leeway, but not much more than that - assuming he is correct, of
course. But still, is there any reason to suspect the RC schemes as
suitable for, say, mid-'40's?
Well, I don't have the evidence to prove it but I'm inclined to say
"certainly not." At any rate, we're talking about only a handful of cars
here, as it's well documented that the billboard meat and dairy reefers
were gone by that time. And I keep coming back to the principle that it's
a mistake to model weird stuff even if you can document it. Even if you
know it to be true, do you really want to explain to every knowledgeable
person who visits your layout that the Italian Swiss Colony wine car
actually WAS still in service in, say, 1944, implausible as it may seem?
So I guess my answer is that in that respect the model really isn't
"suitable" even if the prototype was still around at that date. In any
case, it's likely that, however long they lasted, those wooden tank
ex-reefer bulk wine cars shuttled back and forth between the Central Valley
and North Coast of California where the wineries and growing regions are
located. So if you're modeling the Northwestern Pacific or the SP lines
that connected it to central Calif., okay. But on the Illinois Central or
the Atlantic Coast Line or the Rutland? I don't think so.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


PROTO:HO Accumate couplers

Kathe Robin <kathe@...>
 

We were in Montreal for our usual anniversary celebration Christmas week
when we got word of the impending snow storm at home. Got home on
Saturday @ 2:30 AM only to find a box from Bob Walker w/100 pr. of
Accurail's new couplers. After I unloaded the car, etc. I was so fired
up that I went
and installed a couple of pairs on some of their USRA DS boxcars. Wow!!
They seemed to track just fine whether being pushed or pulled on 15"R.
reverse curves, coupled to each other or real #5s. Shoved a string of
cars up the 10 1/2% 15"R curve to the 1st switchback and they worked
just fine.

These PROTO:HO couplers, combined w/NWSL PROTO:HO Code 88 and/or Code 72
wheelsets make it seem like there is finely a real alternative for those
of us who operate our railroads, resin cars and all, but still want
finer standards than the workhorse Kadee #5 or #58 and the Code 110
RP-25 wheel standard! Yes, if one car is on the end of a sharp (<20"R)
curve, the coupler will need to be nudged over w/a Switchman, toothpick
or similar tool, just like the prototype.

In my mind they are definitely a winner. I only hope the rest of the
model
community agrees.

Max
-------------------------------------------------------
email: m_robin@cheatriver.com

smail: Max S. Robin, P.E.
Cheat River Engineering Inc.
23 Richwood Place / P. O. Box 289
Denville, NJ 07834 - 0289

voice: 973 - 627 - 5895 fax: 973 - 627 - 5460
------------------------------------------------------


SFRDs on UP tracks

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Brock's Fourth Law [ or was it the third? ] of Freight Cars is broken.
Previously I had been led to believe that Santa Fe reefers only traveled on
UP tracks in a westward direction [ implying being empty ]. I then did a bit
of photo research and, indeed, noticed that every photo of a Santa Fe reefer
on UP tracks was moving in a westward direction. Imagine my consternation
today when I found a photo in Union Pacific Steam in Color on pg 118 with
the following caption:

"...4015 arrived at the West end of the Cheyenne yard at 7 AM, October 18,
1958......with a 'Roseville block' perishable off the SP at Ogden that
consisted of 90 reefers, many of which were Santa Fe SFRDs, loaded with
grapes". Both the photo, caption, and book were done by Lloyd Stagner.

Is nothing sacred? Next they'll be telling us that some people's votes for
President may not have been counted.

Mike Brock


Re: "TW" reefers

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Richard - I'm not sure how much time was given to repaint the billboard
schemes. I kept coming back to the one article in the '42 MR that bemoaned
the total loss of these gaudy cars, and as a first-hand report as to the
overall effect. So when I say "pre-'38", I guess that could give a few
years leeway, but not much more than that - assuming he is correct, of
course. But still, is there any reason to suspect the RC schemes as
suitable for, say, mid-'40's?
Yes, all the cars in the series were said to have the 6 wood tanks, so I
guess all the RC cars should get the extra roof hatches. - John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@opendoor.com>
To: <STMFC@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: "TW" reefers


John Nehrich wrote:

....I look at photos and see a
certain type of billboard scheme, promoting products, not just a big
version of the company's name, and when I find out the date of the photo,
(such as in the accompanying caption), it is always pre-'38. And I think
that the Red Caboose schemes....would not have survived the ban.
John, I only have a couple of photos of the prototypes for the RC wine
reefers, but they don't entirely confirm your conclusions. Both are W. C.
Whittaker photos taken before WW II. One shows California Despatch Line
CDLX 279 (an ex-PFE car built in 1909 and rebuilt in 1933) with billboard
stenciling for the Italian Swiss Colony winery in Asti, Calif. The photo
is dated Jan. 11 1939 and the car had its journals repacked by the SP at
Oakland on Oct. 28, 1938, which suggests that it was expected to continue
in revenue service at that time. That car was in the CDLX 277-317 series,
and at least some cars of that series remained on the CDLX roster in the
ORERs through 1950, though all were gone by 1/53. How long they kept
their
billboard paint schemes is, of course, unknown.

The other photo is undated but appears to have been taken at about the
same
time. It shows CDLX 307 of the same series with fancy lettering and logo
for the Bear Creek Vinyard Assn. of Lodi, CA and the car is obviously
retired and out of service, as the ladders and sill steps had been
removed.
Coupled next to it was CDLX 298 of the same series, also out of service as
its hand brake had been removed, so these cars were probably in a CDLX
dead
line when photographed. FWIW, the last reweigh date on CDLX 307 was
12-34,
which was presumably the date when its billboard paint scheme was applied,
and it was only moderately dirty and weathered - � about 5 years worth,
I'd
estimate.

All of the cars in this series had wood roofs and were equipped with six
wooden tanks. On the evidence of the phots cited above, they had twelve
reefer-style hatch covers on the roof, six on each side.


Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



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Re: "TW" reefers

Richard Hendrickson
 

John Nehrich wrote:

....I look at photos and see a
certain type of billboard scheme, promoting products, not just a big
version of the company's name, and when I find out the date of the photo,
(such as in the accompanying caption), it is always pre-'38. And I think
that the Red Caboose schemes....would not have survived the ban.
John, I only have a couple of photos of the prototypes for the RC wine
reefers, but they don't entirely confirm your conclusions. Both are W. C.
Whittaker photos taken before WW II. One shows California Despatch Line
CDLX 279 (an ex-PFE car built in 1909 and rebuilt in 1933) with billboard
stenciling for the Italian Swiss Colony winery in Asti, Calif. The photo
is dated Jan. 11 1939 and the car had its journals repacked by the SP at
Oakland on Oct. 28, 1938, which suggests that it was expected to continue
in revenue service at that time. That car was in the CDLX 277-317 series,
and at least some cars of that series remained on the CDLX roster in the
ORERs through 1950, though all were gone by 1/53. How long they kept their
billboard paint schemes is, of course, unknown.

The other photo is undated but appears to have been taken at about the same
time. It shows CDLX 307 of the same series with fancy lettering and logo
for the Bear Creek Vinyard Assn. of Lodi, CA and the car is obviously
retired and out of service, as the ladders and sill steps had been removed.
Coupled next to it was CDLX 298 of the same series, also out of service as
its hand brake had been removed, so these cars were probably in a CDLX dead
line when photographed. FWIW, the last reweigh date on CDLX 307 was 12-34,
which was presumably the date when its billboard paint scheme was applied,
and it was only moderately dirty and weathered - ± about 5 years worth, I'd
estimate.

All of the cars in this series had wood roofs and were equipped with six
wooden tanks. On the evidence of the phots cited above, they had twelve
reefer-style hatch covers on the roof, six on each side.


Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


CN flats

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

I know that the CN had straight side flats akin to the Tichy kit, but they also had cars in the 659000 series (the number Red Caboose uses). Were these also straight side cars? Did they have 12 pockets? - John


Re: SP Overnight scheme

Richard Hendrickson
 

John Nehrich wrote:

Tony - I think the MDC car is an attempt to model the Santa Fe 7 panel Pratt
truss cars, but on their 1937 AAR box car body. But if I remember, their
earlier cast metal version had a Howe truss, which might have been a little
more useful on that car body.
Same car body, John, just assembled from separate cast metal pieces rather
than one piece of styrene: rectangular panel roof, 4-5 Dreadnaught ends,
(poorly rendered) AAR underframe. So it wasn't useful at all.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

187681 - 187700 of 187873