Date   

Re: ORER lookup help

Tim O'Connor
 


In July 1972

SRLX   1000-15799     17 cars 36 foot RAM brine tank refrigerators
SRLX 15800-24999       6 cars 36 foot RSM ice reefers
SRLX 25000-24099     39 cars 56 foot RPM mechanical reefers (rebuilt ice reefers)

The 15000 series ice reefers - Has anyone ever produced an HO scale model for these cars?

Tim O'Connor



On 7/24/2021 10:49 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:

By 1966 the General American reefer fleet is really dwindling.  This is the second of two pages and mostly SRLX.


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Edward
 

What about privately owned and operated refrigerator/ventilator cars.
Were they included in that interchange ban as well? 

Ed Bommer


Re: Milwaukee Road Single-Sheather Box Car 713549

Tim O'Connor
 


Haha  :-D  I had to look that up!

Tim O'Connor


On 7/24/2021 10:42 AM, Nelson Moyer wrote:

Beer koozies also work well, and no need for extra padding.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Tim O'Connor
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 7:33 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Milwaukee Road Single-Sheather Box Car 713549

 


Hah! I do the same thing, but I use a large (heavy) coffee mug with soft liner to hold the
end of the car upright for decals. Foam by itself is too easy to tip over.

Tim O'Connor



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

D. Scott Chatfield
 

And covered hoppers and tank cars were specifically exempted from the billboard ban.

Scott Chatfield


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 01:19 PM, Andy Carlson wrote:
Charlie, I can see that as an industry consultant that you may believe packaging kits is more expensive than making RTR cars.
 
That is so wrong--anyone who has watched Rapidos' video visits to their Chinese factories can't come up with your conclusion.
Andy,

None of that makes any difference.The problem is, those companies we think of as manufacturers, really aren't; they contract all their manufacturing out. As such, they have no direct control over their costs; they are at the mercy of what they are quoted. The Chicom manufacturers aren't stupid, they know that their costs are rising and if all they do is build the tools and mold the parts, the day will come where they start losing work to somewhere else. They recognize that their major advantage is their low cost of assembly, and for the last twenty years have manipulated their price quotes to "lock" their customers into a pre-assembled product. I recall Bill Wischer telling me that years ago he had tried to to split a run between between RTR and kits, and the prices he was given were within fifty cents of each other. Never mind that the contractor's costs likely were vastly different, this wasn't a cost plus deal, and what he was quoted was what he would have to pay. That fifty cents would only translate to a dollar on what at the time was a twenty dollar product, but the perceived added value to the customer of the pre-assembled model was five times that. Thus, it was simply not doable. Since China entered the model railroading supply chain, they have worked to totally change the character of the product, to their advantage.

Dennis Storzek


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Tony Thompson
 

No new ones after 1934, old ones banned from interchange in 1937 (or was it 1938?),
See the Billboard Reefer book by Hendrickson and Kaminski.
Tony Thompson

On Jul 24, 2021, at 3:59 PM, Gary Ray <gerber1926@...> wrote:

Does anyone know the date of the banning? Also, how long were billboard cars allowed to run - was it just until they needed repainting? If memory serves me right, that would be about 7 years.

Gary Ray
Magalia, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 12:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Allen Cain wrote:

Help me out here. I thought that “billboard” paint schemes where outlawed well before the 1953 date on this car. If I am mistaken, please educate me.
Always remember that the primary issue addressed by the “ban” on billboard schemes was the provision by the leasing company of free advertising paint schemes for their lessees. And advertising in general, meaning posters or placards attached to cars by shippers, was banned early in the 20th century. As long as the lessee or car owner advertised THEMSELVES, for example a billboard-sized word like “HORMEL,” that was okay.

Tony Thompson
tony@...












Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Jerry Michels
 

There is one simple answer.  Very few people buy kits. If the demand was high and the companies made a profit, there would be kits.  Jerry Michels


Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Guy Wilber
 

Gary Ray wrote:

“Does anyone know the date of the banning? Also, how long were billboard cars allowed to run - was it just until they needed repainting? If memory serves me right, that would be about 7 years.”

The ICC’s (I & S Docket No. 3887) was decided on July 2, 1934. The regulations of the decision were published within Dearborn’s Perishable Protective Tariff, effective January 1, 1935.

Rule 36 of the tariff prohibited advertising on newly constructed refrigerator cars or those repainted after January 1, 1935.

Effective January 1, 1937, no refrigerator car bearing advertisements of any shipper, consignee or product was to be accepted in Interchange or handled locally on any railroad.

In 1936 The AAR’s Arbitration Committee added a new paragraph (6) to section (r) of Rule 3:

Refrigerator cars bearing advertisements of any shipper, consignee or product will not be accepted, effective January 1, 1937. In Interchange.

The effective date was extended to April 1, 1937.

The AAR’s Report of The Car Service Division (November 19, 1937) contained the following statement: “The removal of advertising of shipper, consignee, or product from refrigerator cars was accomplished as of April 1, 1937, in accordance with the arranged program.”

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Brian Carlson
 

Guy Wilber already answered this earlier in the thread.

Brian J. Carlson

On Jul 24, 2021, at 6:59 PM, Gary Ray <gerber1926@...> wrote:
Does anyone know the date of the banning? Also, how long were billboard cars allowed to run - was it just until they needed repainting? If memory serves me right, that would be about 7 years.

Gary Ray
Magalia, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 12:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Allen Cain wrote:

Help me out here. I thought that “billboard” paint schemes where outlawed well before the 1953 date on this car. If I am mistaken, please educate me.
Always remember that the primary issue addressed by the “ban” on billboard schemes was the provision by the leasing company of free advertising paint schemes for their lessees. And advertising in general, meaning posters or placards attached to cars by shippers, was banned early in the 20th century. As long as the lessee or car owner advertised THEMSELVES, for example a billboard-sized word like “HORMEL,” that was okay.

Tony Thompson
tony@...










Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Gary Ray
 

Does anyone know the date of the banning? Also, how long were billboard cars allowed to run - was it just until they needed repainting? If memory serves me right, that would be about 7 years.

Gary Ray
Magalia, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 12:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Allen Cain wrote:

Help me out here. I thought that “billboard” paint schemes where outlawed well before the 1953 date on this car. If I am mistaken, please educate me.
Always remember that the primary issue addressed by the “ban” on billboard schemes was the provision by the leasing company of free advertising paint schemes for their lessees. And advertising in general, meaning posters or placards attached to cars by shippers, was banned early in the 20th century. As long as the lessee or car owner advertised THEMSELVES, for example a billboard-sized word like “HORMEL,” that was okay.

Tony Thompson
tony@...


Re: SEEKING PHOTO HELP

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

Thanks So Much John:

Super photo!  Just what I needed.  I just learned from this that the attachments for the end grabs are below the grab and not above as are the kit parts.  Somewhere down the road I would have had to come back and male the correction.

Bill Pardie



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: "John Moore via groups.io" <okladivjohn@...>
Date: 7/24/21 8:57 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] SEEKING PHOTO HELP


-Try this view.

Had to upload the file twice as it didn't show up the first time.
-
okladivjohn@...


InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Andy Carlson
 

Charlie, I can see that as an industry consultant that you may believe packaging kits is more expensive than making RTR cars.

That is so wrong--anyone who has watched Rapidos' video visits to their Chinese factories can't come up with your conclusion.

I have watched kits being packaged and the packer draws from a bin a box; instruction sheets; and from a cascade of bins the parts components for the kit in sequence. Making painted and assembled freight cars has about a third of the steps of a kit as a manufacturing component for making the RTR; everything unique to the RTR process is high labor. It might just be a fatuous excuse to explain away the offering of kits as something that a company doesn't wish to be bothered with and I can understand that.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Saturday, July 24, 2021, 11:27:00 AM PDT, Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...> wrote:


This subject comes up every so often…..and the answer is not going to be any different.

 

Packaging kits, especially nowadays with products with many discrete add-on parts of differing media, is more than the cost of assembly.

For companies “already doing a model” doubling the number of SKUs to include kits and taking on more cost for marginal additional sales is not an attractive option even if additional production cost were covered with higher MSRPs.

 

With the improvement in level of detail on RTR products MOST of the marketplace has moved on from the Good Old Blue Box days where a kit consisted of a body, maybe a separate roofwalk, a brake wheel, underframe and weight, a package of truck components, couplers and box covers, and a sheet of instructions.  As there were so few parts there is more nostalgia associated with those kits than craftsmanship.

 

RTR cars don’t require separate packaging for easy to damage parts…just one set of packaging for the finished car. 

 

I personally believe that the widespread of RTR rolling stock has actually advanced the level of modeling in the Hobby.   “Back in the Day” one had to assemble virtually EVERYTHING to get a simple 4x8 layout up and running…and most never got to that stage.   Today, high quality RTR cars and locomotives allow you to concentrate on the specific segment of the Hobby or the particular prototype you want to have accurate models for.  And what you build urges a level of craftsmanship to fit in with or exceed the quality of what you can buy.

 

I don’t want to have to build every PRR, NYC, SP, ATSF etc. car that I might need to fill out freight trains on my N Scale CB&Q layout, but I am presently learning to use a 3D resin printer to make the CB&Q SM-16 stock cars that I desire.  If a high-level production model of that car was available I would buy them and move on to another Q car, building, bridge or locomotive that is not likely to be a RTR model.  

 

Because of RTR models and better quality components (track, scenery, electronics, etc.) I believe there are more miles of Model Railroads being finished and operating than ever before in the history of Model Railroading…and that the quality level of the average railroad is higher.

 

Other injection plastic hobbies are getting kits because THAT is those hobbies….building kits.  Once you are done building a P-51d and, maybe, putting it on a small diorama, it goes on a shelf.  It doesn’t get integrated into a whole and “operated”.

 

The multitude of aftermarket resin and etched metal enhancements for the most part are “hobby” businesses.  We have a lot of them for the North American market and Japan, Germany, England and other countries have them as well for their prototypes (and some for ours!). 

 

If there is truly an opportunity to make money selling production kits I would be happy to consult with anyone having capital to invest in a such a venture… for reasonable fees paid as services are rendered.

 

Charlie Vlk

Railroad Model Resources 

 







Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [midcentury@...]

_._,_._,_


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Tony Thompson
 

Allen Cain wrote:

Help me out here. I thought that “billboard” paint schemes where outlawed well before the 1953 date on this car. If I am mistaken, please educate me.
Always remember that the primary issue addressed by the “ban” on billboard schemes was the provision by the leasing company of free advertising paint schemes for their lessees. And advertising in general, meaning posters or placards attached to cars by shippers, was banned early in the 20th century. As long as the lessee or car owner advertised THEMSELVES, for example a billboard-sized word like “HORMEL,” that was okay.

Tony Thompson
tony@...


Re: SEEKING PHOTO HELP

John Moore
 


-Try this view.

Had to upload the file twice as it didn't show up the first time.
-
okladivjohn@...


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Charlie Vlk
 

This subject comes up every so often…..and the answer is not going to be any different.

 

Packaging kits, especially nowadays with products with many discrete add-on parts of differing media, is more than the cost of assembly.

For companies “already doing a model” doubling the number of SKUs to include kits and taking on more cost for marginal additional sales is not an attractive option even if additional production cost were covered with higher MSRPs.

 

With the improvement in level of detail on RTR products MOST of the marketplace has moved on from the Good Old Blue Box days where a kit consisted of a body, maybe a separate roofwalk, a brake wheel, underframe and weight, a package of truck components, couplers and box covers, and a sheet of instructions.  As there were so few parts there is more nostalgia associated with those kits than craftsmanship.

 

RTR cars don’t require separate packaging for easy to damage parts…just one set of packaging for the finished car. 

 

I personally believe that the widespread of RTR rolling stock has actually advanced the level of modeling in the Hobby.   “Back in the Day” one had to assemble virtually EVERYTHING to get a simple 4x8 layout up and running…and most never got to that stage.   Today, high quality RTR cars and locomotives allow you to concentrate on the specific segment of the Hobby or the particular prototype you want to have accurate models for.  And what you build urges a level of craftsmanship to fit in with or exceed the quality of what you can buy.

 

I don’t want to have to build every PRR, NYC, SP, ATSF etc. car that I might need to fill out freight trains on my N Scale CB&Q layout, but I am presently learning to use a 3D resin printer to make the CB&Q SM-16 stock cars that I desire.  If a high-level production model of that car was available I would buy them and move on to another Q car, building, bridge or locomotive that is not likely to be a RTR model.  

 

Because of RTR models and better quality components (track, scenery, electronics, etc.) I believe there are more miles of Model Railroads being finished and operating than ever before in the history of Model Railroading…and that the quality level of the average railroad is higher.

 

Other injection plastic hobbies are getting kits because THAT is those hobbies….building kits.  Once you are done building a P-51d and, maybe, putting it on a small diorama, it goes on a shelf.  It doesn’t get integrated into a whole and “operated”.

 

The multitude of aftermarket resin and etched metal enhancements for the most part are “hobby” businesses.  We have a lot of them for the North American market and Japan, Germany, England and other countries have them as well for their prototypes (and some for ours!). 

 

If there is truly an opportunity to make money selling production kits I would be happy to consult with anyone having capital to invest in a such a venture… for reasonable fees paid as services are rendered.

 

Charlie Vlk

Railroad Model Resources 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Shumaker
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 11:51 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

 

It is SOP with model railroad manufacturers. I don’t understand it at all as the other injected plastic hobbies are doing very nicely producing kits. Why do the plastic car, aircraft, armor and ship modelers get what ever they want in seemingly endless inventory, and we get nothing? Don’t get me started on the multitudes of aftermarket resin and etched metal enhancements produced for nearly every kit in every scale. We’re getting the shaft from the manufacturers.
Brian Shumaker


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Jim Betz
 

Allen,
  The banning of billboard paint schemes was based upon "equal access" to 
advertising.  Billboard companies felt/argued that the moving billboards of
the RR cars were "unfail competition" not so much because they were moving
but because the companies advertising on said cars didn't pay for the ads.
  So they were banned.  But the banning was for ads for 'other companies'.
  In other words, if Swift -owned- the car then Swift could advertise their own
products.  But they couldn't 'give away' the space to some other company. 
Before the ruling what was actually happening was that not only was the
billboard moving but also it was 'free' to companies that shipped their
products in that car company's cars ... a "bonus" that was used to lure
shippers to a particular car owning company.

  So - bottom line - it wasn't the fact that it was a billboard but rather that it
was advertising that the company being advertised didn't pay for (directly).
  
  For reasons I've never understood the car companies never tried charging
for ads on their cars.  Probably the ruling was written in such a way that it
wasn't really possible?
                                                                                                   - Jim


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Scott H. Haycock
 

Brian,
 
PM me about some Branchline kits I'd be willing to part with. I can't extract a valid email address for you from this post.

Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent

On 07/24/2021 11:08 AM Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361@...> wrote:
 
 
It’s quite simple. The other hobbies you mention the hobby is building the model. Sometimes people will build dioramas for the models but that’s about it. Model railroading on the other hand the end goal is generally to have a functioning model railroad. About 20 years ago the consumer spoke with their wallets in the switch from kits to ready to run really accelerated.  We often forget on this list that we are in the minority of the hobby.
 
I currently pick up kits whenever I can find them. I just bought 10 IMWX boxcar kits at $10 each for stock and kitbashing purposes.  I wish I could find about half a dozen branchline boxcar kits. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Jul 24, 2021, at 12:50 PM, Brian Shumaker <brian.shumaker@...> wrote:

It is SOP with model railroad manufacturers. I don’t understand it at all as the other injected plastic hobbies are doing very nicely producing kits. Why do the plastic car, aircraft, armor and ship modelers get what ever they want in seemingly endless inventory, and we get nothing? Don’t get me started on the multitudes of aftermarket resin and etched metal enhancements produced for nearly every kit in every scale. We’re getting the shaft from the manufacturers.
Brian Shumaker


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Ed Hawkins
 



On Jul 24, 2021, at 1:03 AM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:

InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)
InterMountain has a new run of their 1958 Cu. Ft. Two-Bay Hoppers.
The colorful NAHX/Polybor-Chlorate caught my attention:
Does anyone have more information on the prototype cars?
Builder?
How many in the fleet?
Last year of service?
Photos?

Bob,
The car in question was built by Pullman-Standard in May 1953 as part of a 75-car order in lot 8117, and sold to owner North American Car Company in series NAHX 30500-30574. These cars were discussed in my RP CYC Volume 30 article with an assortment of in-service photos. The 75 cars in the order were divided into seven separate series with 6 different lessees and 19 cars without any lessee company stencils.

The P-S builder photos for this lot were obtained by Ed Kaminski, with credits to Don Obarski, and published on pages 123 to 127 in the book Pullman-Standard Freight Cars 1900-1960. All of the builder photos illustrate these cars as being painted paint for the sides, ends, and roof; black slope sheets, underbody, hopper bottoms, trucks, and probably black stencils over gray.

Five cars in the series, NAHX 30514-30518, were leased by North American to the Pacific Coast Borax Company. The builder photo of NAHX 30514 is shown on page 124 with what amounts to a letter board across the top of the car on two lines in serif-style stencils with the top line of larger size than the 2nd line. 

PACIFIC COAST BORAX COMPANY
DIVISION OF BORAX CONSOLIDATED LIMITED

If my memory serves correctly, around 10 years ago Frank Hodina contacted me as he came up with a color photo of a car in this multi-color paint scheme. I contacted InterMountain and they were receptive to producing a model and created the artwork. They did a terrific job of accurately depicting the prototype car. In the 2012-2013 time frame, InterMountain offered this model in the 5 numbers, so this current offering is a re-run. Unfortunately, I cannot locate the photo and would need to contact Frank to see if he still has it.

I’m unable to confirm if all 5 of the cars actually received this scheme. In any event I’m unaware of a P-S builder photo taken in this scheme promoting the new Polybor-Chlorate.

Regarding your other question about how many in the fleet, roster data in RP CYC Volume 30 provides details of 225 new cars of the 1958 cu.ft. design, built from Oct. 1950 to May 1953 by Pullman-Standard in five separate orders. 

Also, in 1952 NAHX acquired 8 additional cars built by ACF for West End Chemical Co. The fleet of cars were numbered 30000-30149, 30400-30407 (2nd-hand cars), and 30500-30574. Original lessees included American Potash & Chemical Corp. (55 cars), International Minerals & Chemical Corp. (131), Pacific Coast Borax Co. (5), West End Chemical Co. (1 new; plus possibly the 8 cars purchased 2nd-hand from West End), Kimberly-Clark Corp. (5), and Reynolds Metals Co. (6). Another 22 cars were used in a pool presumably for short-term leases or possibly for long-term leases if made after the cars were built.

For anyone interested in getting into the gritty details of the P-S lot 8117 cars, the Pullman Library has P-S contract files that include a chronological sequence of events via NAHX and P-S correspondence and other info to include specialties provided by numerous suppliers of parts such as hand brakes, running boards, trucks, etc., and their associated costs. These files may also provide specific info if P-S did the painting of one or more cars in the Polybor-Chlorate scheme. 

Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Brian Carlson
 

It’s quite simple. The other hobbies you mention the hobby is building the model. Sometimes people will build dioramas for the models but that’s about it. Model railroading on the other hand the end goal is generally to have a functioning model railroad. About 20 years ago the consumer spoke with their wallets in the switch from kits to ready to run really accelerated.  We often forget on this list that we are in the minority of the hobby.

I currently pick up kits whenever I can find them. I just bought 10 IMWX boxcar kits at $10 each for stock and kitbashing purposes.  I wish I could find about half a dozen branchline boxcar kits. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Jul 24, 2021, at 12:50 PM, Brian Shumaker <brian.shumaker@...> wrote:

It is SOP with model railroad manufacturers. I don’t understand it at all as the other injected plastic hobbies are doing very nicely producing kits. Why do the plastic car, aircraft, armor and ship modelers get what ever they want in seemingly endless inventory, and we get nothing? Don’t get me started on the multitudes of aftermarket resin and etched metal enhancements produced for nearly every kit in every scale. We’re getting the shaft from the manufacturers.
Brian Shumaker


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Brian Shumaker
 

It is SOP with model railroad manufacturers. I don’t understand it at all as the other injected plastic hobbies are doing very nicely producing kits. Why do the plastic car, aircraft, armor and ship modelers get what ever they want in seemingly endless inventory, and we get nothing? Don’t get me started on the multitudes of aftermarket resin and etched metal enhancements produced for nearly every kit in every scale. We’re getting the shaft from the manufacturers.
Brian Shumaker

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