Date   

Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Tony Thompson
 

Thanks, Guy, for the details on this.

Tony Thompson
tony@...


Re: SEEKING PHOTO HELP

charles slater
 

Here you are Bill.
Ckarlie

Sent from Outlook



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 9:47 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] SEEKING PHOTO HELP
 

I am looking for a clear photo of the “B” end of a Santa Fe Ft-V flat car.  In particular I am looking at the drop[ brake staff mechanism.
The ph in the Santa Fe freight car book is a bit dark.

Thanks for any help”

Bill Pardie





Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Bill Parks
 

Well then, when did this exclusive prohibition of refrigerator cars bearing product names relax?
I am thinking of Manufacturer's Railway Service Ralston-Purina checkerboard insulated/ventilated cars, Swift and Armour meat refrigerators with their names on the car sides?
These were running in the 1940's and '50's, carrying the shippers and/or product names.

Ed - 

The ruling still allowed (allows) an exception for these.  Companies can still advertise, but there are a few restrictions.  One is they can only advertise their company name, not any specific product(s).  That is why you have Swift cars, but they just include the corporate name/logo, and not any specific product (e.g. Hams, Bacon).  Also, the cars have to be in captive service for the shipper that leases (or owns them) - resulting in them having to be returned as empties.

These rules are why today we see the Tropicana cars.  They only advertise the company, and are used only by Tropicana
--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Edward
 

I was trying to get more discussion of that point with my initial question.
Thank you for that!

Ed Bommer


Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Brian Carlson
 

Ed. Leasees could still have limited product information on the cars including logos and service marks. Swift leased the cars so they complied.  It’s all explained in the prior messages. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Jul 25, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Edward <edb8381@...> wrote:



Well then, when did this exclusive prohibition of refrigerator cars bearing product names relax?
I am thinking of Manufacturer's Railway Service Ralston-Purina checkerboard insulated/ventilated cars, Swift and Armour meat refrigerators with their names on the car sides?
These were running in the 1940's and '50's, carrying the shippers and/or product names.

Ed Bommer 


Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Tim O'Connor
 

Ed

It's pretty simple, really. Ask yourself whether a *leased* car (owned by lessor X) could be loaded
with Vendor A's products but still carry advertising for Vendor B's competitive product. If  THAT  were
true, then Vendor A had a legitimate complaint. This was why those rules were made! I'm not sure that
the rules were ever un-made. Instead the practice ceased. Advertising continued to appear on freight
cars in cases where there was no conflict of interest.

Tim O'Connor


On 7/25/2021 10:59 AM, Edward wrote:

Well then, when did this exclusive prohibition of refrigerator cars bearing product names relax?
I am thinking of Manufacturer's Railway Service Ralston-Purina checkerboard insulated/ventilated cars, Swift and Armour meat refrigerators with their names on the car sides?
These were running in the 1940's and '50's, carrying the shippers and/or product names.

Ed Bommer


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Edward
 

Well then, when did this exclusive prohibition of refrigerator cars bearing product names relax?
I am thinking of Manufacturer's Railway Service Ralston-Purina checkerboard insulated/ventilated cars, Swift and Armour meat refrigerators with their names on the car sides?
These were running in the 1940's and '50's, carrying the shippers and/or product names.

Ed Bommer 


Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

fire5506
 

Interchange rules apply all cars interchanged between railroads, whether RR owned or privately owned.

Richard Webster


Re: ORER lookup help

Jeffrey Gray <bigsix@...>
 

Another thank you for another tidbit of information. Has anyone ever seen a photo of a SRLX 25xxx Reefer in service? Started as maybe 50 cars and 39 listed as of '72. 



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Date: 7/25/21 7:42 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ORER lookup help


In July 1972

SRLX   1000-15799     17 cars 36 foot RAM brine tank refrigerators
SRLX 15800-24999       6 cars 36 foot RSM ice reefers
SRLX 25000-24099     39 cars 56 foot RPM mechanical reefers (rebuilt ice reefers)

The 15000 series ice reefers - Has anyone ever produced an HO scale model for these cars?

Tim O'Connor



On 7/24/2021 10:49 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:

By 1966 the General American reefer fleet is really dwindling.  This is the second of two pages and mostly SRLX.


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Attachments:


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Tim O'Connor
 


Vendors are caught between a rock and a hard place.

If they (mostly) offer only kits at the inception of a model and once those are gone, that's it,
then that causes people to stock up IMMEDIATELY, and the supply disappears quickly.

But if vendors offer kits all the time (as INTERMOUNTAIN did when they were injection
molding the cars in Colorado) then people are less anxious to get one so the cars take years
to sell a single undec batch!

Tangent and Moloco have tried very hard to cater to kit builders but they have so many permutations
of features for their cars that it must be getting difficult to offer all of them - and for modelers to keep
track of them.


On 7/24/2021 11:50 AM, Andy Carlson wrote:
After decades of my getting Intermountain kits with nearly 100% fill rates, around 2010 the out of stock non-shipped kits started increasing for my purchases. This continued getting weaker until about 5 years ago the only kits I got were the inventory queens, and those too have now gone away. I have not received any of the 100's of back ordered kits since then.

I am now coming around to realize that most of those back ordered kits may never be shipped. Looking at Intermountain's list of HO undec kits, the only offered and in stock kits are some plastic containers. Not a single undec freight car kit is shown as being in stock and available for purchase. A select few kits are shown as "Reserve Now" which means that IM is taking reservations for those and probably intend to have these available in the future. In this list is both versions of the 1958 cu ft covered hoppers, along with several other covered hoppers and oddly, the former RC X29 cars and post-1955 40' box cars in welded/riveted and 6'/8' door configuration.
 
Intermountain seems to be showing us that their future selling of kits is in jeopardy. So no parts and no kits.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Saturday, July 24, 2021, 8:04:03 AM PDT, Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...> wrote:


I've had undecorated kits of the 1958 Cu Ft hoppers with no cutout on backorder for almost 5 years.
--
Ken Adams


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: ORER lookup help

Tim O'Connor
 


In July 1972

SRLX   1000-15799     17 cars 36 foot RAM brine tank refrigerators
SRLX 15800-24999       6 cars 36 foot RSM ice reefers
SRLX 25000-24099     39 cars 56 foot RPM mechanical reefers (rebuilt ice reefers)

The 15000 series ice reefers - Has anyone ever produced an HO scale model for these cars?

Tim O'Connor



On 7/24/2021 10:49 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:

By 1966 the General American reefer fleet is really dwindling.  This is the second of two pages and mostly SRLX.


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Edward
 

What about privately owned and operated refrigerator/ventilator cars.
Were they included in that interchange ban as well? 

Ed Bommer


Re: Milwaukee Road Single-Sheather Box Car 713549

Tim O'Connor
 


Haha  :-D  I had to look that up!

Tim O'Connor


On 7/24/2021 10:42 AM, Nelson Moyer wrote:

Beer koozies also work well, and no need for extra padding.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Tim O'Connor
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 7:33 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Milwaukee Road Single-Sheather Box Car 713549

 


Hah! I do the same thing, but I use a large (heavy) coffee mug with soft liner to hold the
end of the car upright for decals. Foam by itself is too easy to tip over.

Tim O'Connor



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

D. Scott Chatfield
 

And covered hoppers and tank cars were specifically exempted from the billboard ban.

Scott Chatfield


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 01:19 PM, Andy Carlson wrote:
Charlie, I can see that as an industry consultant that you may believe packaging kits is more expensive than making RTR cars.
 
That is so wrong--anyone who has watched Rapidos' video visits to their Chinese factories can't come up with your conclusion.
Andy,

None of that makes any difference.The problem is, those companies we think of as manufacturers, really aren't; they contract all their manufacturing out. As such, they have no direct control over their costs; they are at the mercy of what they are quoted. The Chicom manufacturers aren't stupid, they know that their costs are rising and if all they do is build the tools and mold the parts, the day will come where they start losing work to somewhere else. They recognize that their major advantage is their low cost of assembly, and for the last twenty years have manipulated their price quotes to "lock" their customers into a pre-assembled product. I recall Bill Wischer telling me that years ago he had tried to to split a run between between RTR and kits, and the prices he was given were within fifty cents of each other. Never mind that the contractor's costs likely were vastly different, this wasn't a cost plus deal, and what he was quoted was what he would have to pay. That fifty cents would only translate to a dollar on what at the time was a twenty dollar product, but the perceived added value to the customer of the pre-assembled model was five times that. Thus, it was simply not doable. Since China entered the model railroading supply chain, they have worked to totally change the character of the product, to their advantage.

Dennis Storzek


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Tony Thompson
 

No new ones after 1934, old ones banned from interchange in 1937 (or was it 1938?),
See the Billboard Reefer book by Hendrickson and Kaminski.
Tony Thompson

On Jul 24, 2021, at 3:59 PM, Gary Ray <gerber1926@...> wrote:

Does anyone know the date of the banning? Also, how long were billboard cars allowed to run - was it just until they needed repainting? If memory serves me right, that would be about 7 years.

Gary Ray
Magalia, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 12:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Allen Cain wrote:

Help me out here. I thought that “billboard” paint schemes where outlawed well before the 1953 date on this car. If I am mistaken, please educate me.
Always remember that the primary issue addressed by the “ban” on billboard schemes was the provision by the leasing company of free advertising paint schemes for their lessees. And advertising in general, meaning posters or placards attached to cars by shippers, was banned early in the 20th century. As long as the lessee or car owner advertised THEMSELVES, for example a billboard-sized word like “HORMEL,” that was okay.

Tony Thompson
tony@...












Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Jerry Michels
 

There is one simple answer.  Very few people buy kits. If the demand was high and the companies made a profit, there would be kits.  Jerry Michels


Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Guy Wilber
 

Gary Ray wrote:

“Does anyone know the date of the banning? Also, how long were billboard cars allowed to run - was it just until they needed repainting? If memory serves me right, that would be about 7 years.”

The ICC’s (I & S Docket No. 3887) was decided on July 2, 1934. The regulations of the decision were published within Dearborn’s Perishable Protective Tariff, effective January 1, 1935.

Rule 36 of the tariff prohibited advertising on newly constructed refrigerator cars or those repainted after January 1, 1935.

Effective January 1, 1937, no refrigerator car bearing advertisements of any shipper, consignee or product was to be accepted in Interchange or handled locally on any railroad.

In 1936 The AAR’s Arbitration Committee added a new paragraph (6) to section (r) of Rule 3:

Refrigerator cars bearing advertisements of any shipper, consignee or product will not be accepted, effective January 1, 1937. In Interchange.

The effective date was extended to April 1, 1937.

The AAR’s Report of The Car Service Division (November 19, 1937) contained the following statement: “The removal of advertising of shipper, consignee, or product from refrigerator cars was accomplished as of April 1, 1937, in accordance with the arranged program.”

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Brian Carlson
 

Guy Wilber already answered this earlier in the thread.

Brian J. Carlson

On Jul 24, 2021, at 6:59 PM, Gary Ray <gerber1926@...> wrote:
Does anyone know the date of the banning? Also, how long were billboard cars allowed to run - was it just until they needed repainting? If memory serves me right, that would be about 7 years.

Gary Ray
Magalia, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 12:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Allen Cain wrote:

Help me out here. I thought that “billboard” paint schemes where outlawed well before the 1953 date on this car. If I am mistaken, please educate me.
Always remember that the primary issue addressed by the “ban” on billboard schemes was the provision by the leasing company of free advertising paint schemes for their lessees. And advertising in general, meaning posters or placards attached to cars by shippers, was banned early in the 20th century. As long as the lessee or car owner advertised THEMSELVES, for example a billboard-sized word like “HORMEL,” that was okay.

Tony Thompson
tony@...










Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Gary Ray
 

Does anyone know the date of the banning? Also, how long were billboard cars allowed to run - was it just until they needed repainting? If memory serves me right, that would be about 7 years.

Gary Ray
Magalia, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 12:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Allen Cain wrote:

Help me out here. I thought that “billboard” paint schemes where outlawed well before the 1953 date on this car. If I am mistaken, please educate me.
Always remember that the primary issue addressed by the “ban” on billboard schemes was the provision by the leasing company of free advertising paint schemes for their lessees. And advertising in general, meaning posters or placards attached to cars by shippers, was banned early in the 20th century. As long as the lessee or car owner advertised THEMSELVES, for example a billboard-sized word like “HORMEL,” that was okay.

Tony Thompson
tony@...

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