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Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)
Dennis Storzek
On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 10:27 AM, Bill Parks wrote:
Well then, when did this exclusive prohibition of refrigerator cars bearing product names relax?We had a very extensive discussion about the "billboard reefer ban" back in 2014. View it here: https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/topic/17252367#124611 The first thing to understand is it wasn't about shippers complaining about being offered cars with advertising painted on; it was about the railroads distaste for the reefer lease fleets, because while the railroads were obligated to maintain a fleet of reefers so they could supply a car if a load was offered, when a load in a lease car was offered, they had to pay car hire on the car, while the car they owned sat. It was quite a sore point during the twenties and early thirties. While the ban did not cover owners names, it was rather ambiguous what could be construed as "advertising." Because of the fact that the remedy was refusal to accept the car in interchange, and this decision would be made multiple times during the cars trip, every time the car was interchanged between railroads, NOBODY wanted risk having a loaded car of meat or produce refused a thousand miles away from its point of origination, so initially NOBODY painted anything on the cars that could possibly be called advertising. As time went on, the lease fleet issue receded, and after WWII cars began to sport colorful logos again, but from the late thirties through the war the freightcar fleet became very bland indeed. Dennis Storzek
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Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)
Tony Thompson
Thanks, Guy, for the details on this.
Tony Thompson tony@signaturepress.com
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Re: SEEKING PHOTO HELP
charles slater
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From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 9:47 AM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: [RealSTMFC] SEEKING PHOTO HELP I am looking for a clear photo of the “B” end of a Santa Fe Ft-V flat car. In particular I am looking at the drop[ brake staff mechanism. The ph in the Santa Fe freight car book is a bit dark. Thanks for any help” Bill Pardie
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Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)
Bill Parks
Well then, when did this exclusive prohibition of refrigerator cars bearing product names relax?
I am thinking of Manufacturer's Railway Service Ralston-Purina checkerboard insulated/ventilated cars, Swift and Armour meat refrigerators with their names on the car sides? These were running in the 1940's and '50's, carrying the shippers and/or product names. Ed - The ruling still allowed (allows) an exception for these. Companies can still advertise, but there are a few restrictions. One is they can only advertise their company name, not any specific product(s). That is why you have Swift cars, but they just include the corporate name/logo, and not any specific product (e.g. Hams, Bacon). Also, the cars have to be in captive service for the shipper that leases (or owns them) - resulting in them having to be returned as empties. These rules are why today we see the Tropicana cars. They only advertise the company, and are used only by Tropicana -- Bill Parks Cumming, GA Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida
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Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)
I was trying to get more discussion of that point with my initial question.
Thank you for that! Ed Bommer
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Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)
Ed. Leasees could still have limited product information on the cars including logos and service marks. Swift leased the cars so they complied. It’s all explained in the prior messages.
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Brian J. Carlson
On Jul 25, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Edward <edb8381@...> wrote:
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Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)
Ed It's pretty simple, really. Ask yourself whether a *leased* car (owned by lessor X) could be loaded with Vendor A's products but still carry advertising for Vendor B's competitive product. If THAT were true, then Vendor A had a legitimate complaint. This was why those rules were made! I'm not sure that the rules were ever un-made. Instead the practice ceased. Advertising continued to appear on freight cars in cases where there was no conflict of interest. Tim O'Connor
On 7/25/2021 10:59 AM, Edward wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)
Well then, when did this exclusive prohibition of refrigerator cars bearing product names relax?
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Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)
Interchange rules apply all cars interchanged between railroads, whether RR owned or privately owned.
Richard Webster
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Re: ORER lookup help
Jeffrey Gray <bigsix@...>
Another thank you for another tidbit of information. Has anyone ever seen a photo of a SRLX 25xxx Reefer in service? Started as maybe 50 cars and 39 listed as of '72. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> Date: 7/25/21 7:42 AM (GMT-05:00) To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ORER lookup help In July 1972 SRLX 1000-15799 17 cars 36 foot RAM brine tank refrigerators SRLX 15800-24999 6 cars 36 foot RSM ice reefers SRLX 25000-24099 39 cars 56 foot RPM mechanical reefers (rebuilt ice reefers) The 15000 series ice reefers - Has anyone ever produced an HO scale model for these cars? Tim O'Connor On 7/24/2021 10:49 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
-- Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts Attachments:
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Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)
Vendors are caught between a rock and a hard place. If they (mostly) offer only kits at the inception of a model and once those are gone, that's it, then that causes people to stock up IMMEDIATELY, and the supply disappears quickly. But if vendors offer kits all the time (as INTERMOUNTAIN did when they were injection molding the cars in Colorado) then people are less anxious to get one so the cars take years to sell a single undec batch! Tangent and Moloco have tried very hard to cater to kit builders but they have so many permutations of features for their cars that it must be getting difficult to offer all of them - and for modelers to keep track of them.
On 7/24/2021 11:50 AM, Andy Carlson wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Re: ORER lookup help
In July 1972 SRLX 1000-15799 17 cars 36 foot RAM brine tank refrigerators SRLX 15800-24999 6 cars 36 foot RSM ice reefers SRLX 25000-24099 39 cars 56 foot RPM mechanical reefers (rebuilt ice reefers) The 15000 series ice reefers - Has anyone ever produced an HO scale model for these cars? Tim O'Connor
On 7/24/2021 10:49 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)
What about privately owned and operated refrigerator/ventilator cars.
Were they included in that interchange ban as well? Ed Bommer
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Re: Milwaukee Road Single-Sheather Box Car 713549
Haha :-D I had to look that up! Tim O'Connor
On 7/24/2021 10:42 AM, Nelson Moyer wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)
D. Scott Chatfield
And covered hoppers and tank cars were specifically exempted from the billboard ban. Scott Chatfield
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Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?
Dennis Storzek
On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 01:19 PM, Andy Carlson wrote:
Andy, None of that makes any difference.The problem is, those companies we think of as manufacturers, really aren't; they contract all their manufacturing out. As such, they have no direct control over their costs; they are at the mercy of what they are quoted. The Chicom manufacturers aren't stupid, they know that their costs are rising and if all they do is build the tools and mold the parts, the day will come where they start losing work to somewhere else. They recognize that their major advantage is their low cost of assembly, and for the last twenty years have manipulated their price quotes to "lock" their customers into a pre-assembled product. I recall Bill Wischer telling me that years ago he had tried to to split a run between between RTR and kits, and the prices he was given were within fifty cents of each other. Never mind that the contractor's costs likely were vastly different, this wasn't a cost plus deal, and what he was quoted was what he would have to pay. That fifty cents would only translate to a dollar on what at the time was a twenty dollar product, but the perceived added value to the customer of the pre-assembled model was five times that. Thus, it was simply not doable. Since China entered the model railroading supply chain, they have worked to totally change the character of the product, to their advantage. Dennis Storzek
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Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)
Tony Thompson
No new ones after 1934, old ones banned from interchange in 1937 (or was it 1938?),
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See the Billboard Reefer book by Hendrickson and Kaminski. Tony Thompson
On Jul 24, 2021, at 3:59 PM, Gary Ray <gerber1926@gmail.com> wrote:
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Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?
Jerry Michels
There is one simple answer. Very few people buy kits. If the demand was high and the companies made a profit, there would be kits. Jerry Michels
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Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)
Guy Wilber
Gary Ray wrote:
“Does anyone know the date of the banning? Also, how long were billboard cars allowed to run - was it just until they needed repainting? If memory serves me right, that would be about 7 years.” The ICC’s (I & S Docket No. 3887) was decided on July 2, 1934. The regulations of the decision were published within Dearborn’s Perishable Protective Tariff, effective January 1, 1935. Rule 36 of the tariff prohibited advertising on newly constructed refrigerator cars or those repainted after January 1, 1935. Effective January 1, 1937, no refrigerator car bearing advertisements of any shipper, consignee or product was to be accepted in Interchange or handled locally on any railroad. In 1936 The AAR’s Arbitration Committee added a new paragraph (6) to section (r) of Rule 3: Refrigerator cars bearing advertisements of any shipper, consignee or product will not be accepted, effective January 1, 1937. In Interchange. The effective date was extended to April 1, 1937. The AAR’s Report of The Car Service Division (November 19, 1937) contained the following statement: “The removal of advertising of shipper, consignee, or product from refrigerator cars was accomplished as of April 1, 1937, in accordance with the arranged program.” Guy Wilber Reno, Nevada
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Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)
Guy Wilber already answered this earlier in the thread.
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Brian J. Carlson
On Jul 24, 2021, at 6:59 PM, Gary Ray <gerber1926@gmail.com> wrote:
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