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URTX/Milwaukee Road Reefer General Arrangement Drawings

Scott
 

Group,

Does anybody if there are General Arrangement drawings available for the Milwaukee Road 50ft Reefer in the photo?  According to Steam era freight car manual it was built by General American in 1938 because of the single locking bar on the door.  There is also a nice side view of this car in the book. Does anybody know if there is a survivor car hidden away in a museum somewhere?  I am particularly interested in roof details.   It appears to only have one ice hatch on each end which seems odd.  Photo is a duplicate slide, unknown photographer, my collection.

Thanks,
Scott McDonald
Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Brian Carlson
 

Life-like Underpriced their initial ready to run models. I was buying Greenville gons and type 21 tank cars for $10-$15 built. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Jul 25, 2021, at 10:02 PM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:

A story. Back in the early days of production in China, LifeLike brought their P-S grain hopper (I forget exactly what the prototype was) both ways; both fully assembled and as a kit. At one of the trade shows I was talking to a hobby shop owner from the KC area who had bought both, only to watch the kits sit on the shelf... and sit... and sit. He finally solved this problem by having the high school kid he had as an afternoon counter clerk build them. Then they sold.

Dennis Storzek 
Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 04:38 PM, Ken Adams wrote:
I thought Accurail and Moloco were still manufacturing in the US. Accurail of course keeps their kits very simple. 
Accurail keeps their kits very simple for a reason; beyond a certain level of complexity there is very little market.

A story. Back in the early days of production in China, LifeLike brought their P-S grain hopper (I forget exactly what the prototype was) both ways; both fully assembled and as a kit. At one of the trade shows I was talking to a hobby shop owner from the KC area who had bought both, only to watch the kits sit on the shelf... and sit... and sit. He finally solved this problem by having the high school kid he had as an afternoon counter clerk build them. Then they sold.

Dennis Storzek 
Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Brian Carlson
 

I have enough kits fit the rest of my life lol. About 200 resin and plastic. I’m a slow builder. Things are always available if you look long enough. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Jul 25, 2021, at 7:38 PM, Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...> wrote:



I thought Accurail and Moloco were still manufacturing in the US. Accurail of course keeps their kits very simple. 

It's unfortunate that the hobby has gone the way it has. Tariff wars and mass and technological changes favoring produced 3 D prints may change the industry in the near future.  The longer future may bring raw material prices for plastic and resin both for 3D printing and casting to unaffordable levels due to climate change impact on future production of hydrocarbon based materials. 

Perhaps the future may make our modeling of layouts structures and railroad equipment affordable only a virtual exercise in super realistic simulator software.

--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io
Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Ken Adams
 

I thought Accurail and Moloco were still manufacturing in the US. Accurail of course keeps their kits very simple. 

It's unfortunate that the hobby has gone the way it has. Tariff wars and mass and technological changes favoring produced 3 D prints may change the industry in the near future.  The longer future may bring raw material prices for plastic and resin both for 3D printing and casting to unaffordable levels due to climate change impact on future production of hydrocarbon based materials. 

Perhaps the future may make our modeling of layouts structures and railroad equipment affordable only a virtual exercise in super realistic simulator software.

--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io
Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Tony Thompson
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:

If somebody wanted to go through the hassle of setting up a full-blown factory here in the US, talk to Accurail, Bowser, Con-Cor, Atlas, Inter-Mountain, or any other of the companies that eventually had to partially or completely give in to overseas production or assembly.   

Or maybe you would want to talk to Kadee instead. C’mon, Charlie. 

Tony Thompson
Re: ORER lookup help

Steve and Barb Hile
 

I believe that the SRLX 15000-15799 series cars are on Frank’s radar at Resin Car Works.  Those are brine tank cars with tabbed side sills.  The 15800-15999 were regular ice reefers with solid side sills.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2021 4:02 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ORER lookup help

 

Thanks for this information. It pretty clearly indicates the decline in numbers of these cars. While it might be asking for a lot, I would really like to see the SRLX 15000, 15800, and 25000 series cars from the 1959 and 1960 editions of the ORER. I have the 1/59 edition, so I'm one-eighth of the way there.

 

I do not know of any HO models of the 15000 series cars. It is possible to kitbash one from the Walthers meat reefer kit. The hard part is the doors with two latch bars and unusual hinges. I have not solved the hinge problem myself, but Stan Rydarowicz did for some of his products. I don't know how he did it.

 

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Jul 25, 2021 4:42 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ORER lookup help


In July 1972

SRLX   1000-15799     17 cars 36 foot RAM brine tank refrigerators
SRLX 15800-24999       6 cars 36 foot RSM ice reefers
SRLX 25000-24099     39 cars 56 foot RPM mechanical reefers (rebuilt ice reefers)

The 15000 series ice reefers - Has anyone ever produced an HO scale model for these cars?

Tim O'Connor



On 7/24/2021 10:49 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:

By 1966 the General American reefer fleet is really dwindling.  This is the second of two pages and mostly SRLX.


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: ORER lookup help

Richard Townsend
 

Thanks for this information. It pretty clearly indicates the decline in numbers of these cars. While it might be asking for a lot, I would really like to see the SRLX 15000, 15800, and 25000 series cars from the 1959 and 1960 editions of the ORER. I have the 1/59 edition, so I'm one-eighth of the way there.

I do not know of any HO models of the 15000 series cars. It is possible to kitbash one from the Walthers meat reefer kit. The hard part is the doors with two latch bars and unusual hinges. I have not solved the hinge problem myself, but Stan Rydarowicz did for some of his products. I don't know how he did it.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Jul 25, 2021 4:42 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ORER lookup help


In July 1972

SRLX   1000-15799     17 cars 36 foot RAM brine tank refrigerators
SRLX 15800-24999       6 cars 36 foot RSM ice reefers
SRLX 25000-24099     39 cars 56 foot RPM mechanical reefers (rebuilt ice reefers)

The 15000 series ice reefers - Has anyone ever produced an HO scale model for these cars?

Tim O'Connor



On 7/24/2021 10:49 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
By 1966 the General American reefer fleet is really dwindling.  This is the second of two pages and mostly SRLX.

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Charlie Vlk
 

I certainly can’t argue with Dennis as he has intimate firsthand real experience on all sides of the discussion and ocean.

 

I think the consumer might underestimate the system design and supervision that goes into the production of kits and finished items. 

To some degree the parts count problem is largely self-administering during the assembly of a finished item….it becomes pretty obvious at several stages of assembly and inspection that a part is missing if the system is set up properly.

Keeping track of the packing of a myriad of parts into a “kit” seems to me to be less obvious.   A miscounted screw or a mal-formed part on a sprue might be overlooked in packing but harder not notice during assembly. 

But, as Dennis says, it is largely moot as the oversees factories know what they are going to charge for a project and the outcome is not influenced by our logic at all.  

It used to drive me nuts when the production minimums for Undecorated or number-less units was the same as fully decorated items.  My thinking was just-set-aside-raw-plastic-parts-and-don’t-paint-them,-then,-assemble-them!   More sales, less overall work!!  But to their mind, no, a line item on a spreadsheet has to follow the “rule”.  ARGHHH!!!!  

(on topic, that was likely the reason that you had to buy 3 Kato ACF Covered Hoppers in one box….the profit on the SKU was pre-determined and that dictated the packaging….even though the consumer did not want to be forced to buy 3 of one roadname at a time…even if they were probably going to want six different numbers in that railroad!

It is what it is….deal with it, as Dennis says!!!

 

If somebody wanted to go through the hassle of setting up a full-blown factory here in the US, talk to Accurail, Bowser, Con-Cor, Atlas, Inter-Mountain, or any other of the companies that eventually had to partially or completely give in to overseas production or assembly.   Perhaps someday an open full service factory modeled on the Chinese Sandi Kan, Kader, etc.. success can be established to allow boutique Model Railroad Companies to continue without having to take on the myriad of problems for individual low-production enterprises.  At that point kits may make a comeback if there are appreciable differences in labor for assembly vs. straight packing…but don’t expect to ever see the equivalent of a $1.98 Blue Box kit!

 

Charlie Vlk

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 11:29 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

 

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 01:19 PM, Andy Carlson wrote:

Charlie, I can see that as an industry consultant that you may believe packaging kits is more expensive than making RTR cars.

 

That is so wrong--anyone who has watched Rapidos' video visits to their Chinese factories can't come up with your conclusion.

Andy,

None of that makes any difference.The problem is, those companies we think of as manufacturers, really aren't; they contract all their manufacturing out. As such, they have no direct control over their costs; they are at the mercy of what they are quoted. The Chicom manufacturers aren't stupid, they know that their costs are rising and if all they do is build the tools and mold the parts, the day will come where they start losing work to somewhere else. They recognize that their major advantage is their low cost of assembly, and for the last twenty years have manipulated their price quotes to "lock" their customers into a pre-assembled product. I recall Bill Wischer telling me that years ago he had tried to to split a run between between RTR and kits, and the prices he was given were within fifty cents of each other. Never mind that the contractor's costs likely were vastly different, this wasn't a cost plus deal, and what he was quoted was what he would have to pay. That fifty cents would only translate to a dollar on what at the time was a twenty dollar product, but the perceived added value to the customer of the pre-assembled model was five times that. Thus, it was simply not doable. Since China entered the model railroading supply chain, they have worked to totally change the character of the product, to their advantage.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition

Tony Thompson
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

We had a very extensive discussion about the "billboard reefer ban" back in 2014. View it here:
https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/topic/17252367#124611

The first thing to understand is it wasn't about shippers complaining about being offered cars with advertising painted on; it was about the railroads distaste for the reefer lease fleets, because while the railroads were obligated to maintain a fleet of reefers so they could supply a car if a load was offered, when a load in a lease car was offered, they had to pay car hire on the car, while the car they owned sat. It was quite a sore point during the twenties and early thirties.

While the ban did not cover owners names, it was rather ambiguous what could be construed as "advertising." Because of the fact that the remedy was refusal to accept the car in interchange, and this decision would be made multiple times during the cars trip, every time the car was interchanged between railroads, NOBODY wanted risk having a loaded car of meat or produce refused a thousand miles away from its point of origination, so initially NOBODY painted anything on the cars that could possibly be called advertising.

As time went on, the lease fleet issue receded, and after WWII cars began to sport colorful logos again, but from the late thirties through the war the freightcar fleet became very bland indeed.

Very good summary, Dennis. I would agree with almost all of it. The one point missed is that the railroads not only disliked the extensive private fleets, effectively competing with their own (which they didn’t manage to eliminate). More importantly, the leasing companies were REBATING mileage charges to the lessees, above some agreed minimum mileage per month. That reduced or in some cases even eliminated lease payments by the lessee, and of course encouraged as much roundabout load movements and empty mileage as possible, by lessee directions. The ICC found that this practice was indeed a rebate, long prohibited. With its elimination, much of the financial advantages of the lease contracts of the day disappeared.
Notice again that these significant regulatory issues do NOT include the advertising. It is a quite minor part of the ICC testimony and of the final ICC order. 

Tony Thompson
Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 10:27 AM, Bill Parks wrote:
Well then, when did this exclusive prohibition of refrigerator cars bearing product names relax?
I am thinking of Manufacturer's Railway Service Ralston-Purina checkerboard insulated/ventilated cars, Swift and Armour meat refrigerators with their names on the car sides?
These were running in the 1940's and '50's, carrying the shippers and/or product names.
We had a very extensive discussion about the "billboard reefer ban" back in 2014. View it here:
https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/topic/17252367#124611

The first thing to understand is it wasn't about shippers complaining about being offered cars with advertising painted on; it was about the railroads distaste for the reefer lease fleets, because while the railroads were obligated to maintain a fleet of reefers so they could supply a car if a load was offered, when a load in a lease car was offered, they had to pay car hire on the car, while the car they owned sat. It was quite a sore point during the twenties and early thirties.

While the ban did not cover owners names, it was rather ambiguous what could be construed as "advertising." Because of the fact that the remedy was refusal to accept the car in interchange, and this decision would be made multiple times during the cars trip, every time the car was interchanged between railroads, NOBODY wanted risk having a loaded car of meat or produce refused a thousand miles away from its point of origination, so initially NOBODY painted anything on the cars that could possibly be called advertising.

As time went on, the lease fleet issue receded, and after WWII cars began to sport colorful logos again, but from the late thirties through the war the freightcar fleet became very bland indeed.

Dennis Storzek
Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Tony Thompson
 

Thanks, Guy, for the details on this.

Tony Thompson
tony@...
Re: SEEKING PHOTO HELP

charles slater
 

Here you are Bill.
Ckarlie

Sent from Outlook


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 9:47 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] SEEKING PHOTO HELP
 

I am looking for a clear photo of the “B” end of a Santa Fe Ft-V flat car.  In particular I am looking at the drop[ brake staff mechanism.
The ph in the Santa Fe freight car book is a bit dark.

Thanks for any help”

Bill Pardie
Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Bill Parks
 

Well then, when did this exclusive prohibition of refrigerator cars bearing product names relax?
I am thinking of Manufacturer's Railway Service Ralston-Purina checkerboard insulated/ventilated cars, Swift and Armour meat refrigerators with their names on the car sides?
These were running in the 1940's and '50's, carrying the shippers and/or product names.

Ed - 

The ruling still allowed (allows) an exception for these.  Companies can still advertise, but there are a few restrictions.  One is they can only advertise their company name, not any specific product(s).  That is why you have Swift cars, but they just include the corporate name/logo, and not any specific product (e.g. Hams, Bacon).  Also, the cars have to be in captive service for the shipper that leases (or owns them) - resulting in them having to be returned as empties.

These rules are why today we see the Tropicana cars.  They only advertise the company, and are used only by Tropicana
--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida
Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Edward
 

I was trying to get more discussion of that point with my initial question.
Thank you for that!

Ed Bommer
Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Brian Carlson
 

Ed. Leasees could still have limited product information on the cars including logos and service marks. Swift leased the cars so they complied.  It’s all explained in the prior messages. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Jul 25, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Edward <edb8381@...> wrote:



Well then, when did this exclusive prohibition of refrigerator cars bearing product names relax?
I am thinking of Manufacturer's Railway Service Ralston-Purina checkerboard insulated/ventilated cars, Swift and Armour meat refrigerators with their names on the car sides?
These were running in the 1940's and '50's, carrying the shippers and/or product names.

Ed Bommer 
Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Tim O'Connor
 

Ed

It's pretty simple, really. Ask yourself whether a *leased* car (owned by lessor X) could be loaded
with Vendor A's products but still carry advertising for Vendor B's competitive product. If  THAT  were
true, then Vendor A had a legitimate complaint. This was why those rules were made! I'm not sure that
the rules were ever un-made. Instead the practice ceased. Advertising continued to appear on freight
cars in cases where there was no conflict of interest.

Tim O'Connor


On 7/25/2021 10:59 AM, Edward wrote:

Well then, when did this exclusive prohibition of refrigerator cars bearing product names relax?
I am thinking of Manufacturer's Railway Service Ralston-Purina checkerboard insulated/ventilated cars, Swift and Armour meat refrigerators with their names on the car sides?
These were running in the 1940's and '50's, carrying the shippers and/or product names.

Ed Bommer


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Edward
 

Well then, when did this exclusive prohibition of refrigerator cars bearing product names relax?
I am thinking of Manufacturer's Railway Service Ralston-Purina checkerboard insulated/ventilated cars, Swift and Armour meat refrigerators with their names on the car sides?
These were running in the 1940's and '50's, carrying the shippers and/or product names.

Ed Bommer 
Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

fire5506
 

Interchange rules apply all cars interchanged between railroads, whether RR owned or privately owned.

Richard Webster
Re: ORER lookup help

Jeffrey Gray <bigsix@...>
 

Another thank you for another tidbit of information. Has anyone ever seen a photo of a SRLX 25xxx Reefer in service? Started as maybe 50 cars and 39 listed as of '72. 



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Date: 7/25/21 7:42 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ORER lookup help


In July 1972

SRLX   1000-15799     17 cars 36 foot RAM brine tank refrigerators
SRLX 15800-24999       6 cars 36 foot RSM ice reefers
SRLX 25000-24099     39 cars 56 foot RPM mechanical reefers (rebuilt ice reefers)

The 15000 series ice reefers - Has anyone ever produced an HO scale model for these cars?

Tim O'Connor



On 7/24/2021 10:49 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:

By 1966 the General American reefer fleet is really dwindling.  This is the second of two pages and mostly SRLX.


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

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