Date   

Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Tim O'Connor
 


Being an importer means all you need is money. No factory, employees, regulations, etc to worry about.
China is incredibly successful because they offer "one stop shopping" from design to production, and this
has been a boon to low-headcount importers who can simply focus on high value design and art and sales.
When most of us were much younger this is how brass models were made. Same strategy, new materials
now.

Have Accurail and Bowser out-sourced their injection molding too? I recall that some places have tried
other countries besides China - Atlas and Walthers come to mind - Brazil perhaps? And I think I read that
Moloco has tried Vietnam.

Kadee is the amazing exception. But it ain't easy - just ask Sam Clarke. :-\

Tim O'Connor


On 7/25/2021 6:20 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Charlie Vlk wrote:

If somebody wanted to go through the hassle of setting up a full-blown factory here in the US, talk to Accurail, Bowser, Con-Cor, Atlas, Inter-Mountain, or any other of the companies that eventually had to partially or completely give in to overseas production or assembly.   

Or maybe you would want to talk to Kadee instead. C’mon, Charlie. 

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: URTX/Milwaukee Road Reefer General Arrangement Drawings

Guy Wilber
 

Scott wrote:

“I am particularly interested in roof details. It appears to only have one ice hatch on each end which seems odd.”

The ice hatch cover (right) is either in the open position or missing entirely. You can see the latch mount and the straight line of the bunker flange as well…the car definitely has four hatches.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


St. Louis Refrigerator Car Co. models

Lester Breuer
 

From an estate being disposed of at a local flea market I purchased the Reefer of which photo is attached.
With hatches the number is incorrect as it should be numbered in the class RS series.
A correct class RB , no ice bunkers, a Sunshine Models kit is shown on Tony Thompson’s blog.  After an internet search
I could not find any model of the St. Louis Reefer numbered correctly in the RS series.  All manufacture models I found had a class RB number
on a CAR WITH HATCHES.  Wondering if I missed finding a correct lettered St. Louis Reefer model with a number in the RS series?
Lester Breuer


Re: URTX/Milwaukee Road Reefer General Arrangement Drawings

al_brown03
 

The article says, about brake equipment: "The cars ... were equipped with Westinghouse AB-schedule 4-12 air brakes, as well as steam and air-signal pipes" [ p 54]

"[U]nlike the cars that were built in following years, [URTX 89000-89024] had independent dual AB-schedule air brake systems acting on individual trucks" [p 55]

And that's it.

Al B.


Re: URTX/Milwaukee Road Reefer General Arrangement Drawings

vapeurchapelon
 

Al,
 
many thanks for that hint. Does the article contain some information regarding brake equipment/ arrangement? The OMI brass model unfortunately is just plain wrong. I redetailed it at least to a point it would be functionable - but I am still not convinced of its accuracy.
 
Scott - many thanks for the good photo.
 
Many greetings
 
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1954
 
Gesendet: Montag, 26. Juli 2021 um 06:49 Uhr
Von: "al_brown03" <abrown@...>
An: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] URTX/Milwaukee Road Reefer General Arrangement Drawings
There's an article on these cars in RP CYC 16, pp 53-63.

Hth,

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: URTX/Milwaukee Road Reefer General Arrangement Drawings

Ed Hawkins
 



On Jul 25, 2021, at 11:18 PM, Scott <repairman87@...> wrote:

Does anybody if there are General Arrangement drawings available for the Milwaukee Road 50ft Reefer in the photo?  According to Steam era freight car manual it was built by General American in 1938 because of the single locking bar on the door.  There is also a nice side view of this car in the book. Does anybody know if there is a survivor car hidden away in a museum somewhere?  I am particularly interested in roof details.   It appears to only have one ice hatch on each end which seems odd.  Photo is a duplicate slide, unknown photographer, my collection.

Scott,
Check with the Milwaukee Public Library, who received a substantial collection of builder photos & technical data from the railroad. 
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: URTX/Milwaukee Road Reefer General Arrangement Drawings

al_brown03
 

There's an article on these cars in RP CYC 16, pp 53-63.

Hth,

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


URTX/Milwaukee Road Reefer General Arrangement Drawings

Scott
 

Group,

Does anybody if there are General Arrangement drawings available for the Milwaukee Road 50ft Reefer in the photo?  According to Steam era freight car manual it was built by General American in 1938 because of the single locking bar on the door.  There is also a nice side view of this car in the book. Does anybody know if there is a survivor car hidden away in a museum somewhere?  I am particularly interested in roof details.   It appears to only have one ice hatch on each end which seems odd.  Photo is a duplicate slide, unknown photographer, my collection.

Thanks,
Scott McDonald


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Brian Carlson
 

Life-like Underpriced their initial ready to run models. I was buying Greenville gons and type 21 tank cars for $10-$15 built. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Jul 25, 2021, at 10:02 PM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:

A story. Back in the early days of production in China, LifeLike brought their P-S grain hopper (I forget exactly what the prototype was) both ways; both fully assembled and as a kit. At one of the trade shows I was talking to a hobby shop owner from the KC area who had bought both, only to watch the kits sit on the shelf... and sit... and sit. He finally solved this problem by having the high school kid he had as an afternoon counter clerk build them. Then they sold.

Dennis Storzek 


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 04:38 PM, Ken Adams wrote:
I thought Accurail and Moloco were still manufacturing in the US. Accurail of course keeps their kits very simple. 
Accurail keeps their kits very simple for a reason; beyond a certain level of complexity there is very little market.

A story. Back in the early days of production in China, LifeLike brought their P-S grain hopper (I forget exactly what the prototype was) both ways; both fully assembled and as a kit. At one of the trade shows I was talking to a hobby shop owner from the KC area who had bought both, only to watch the kits sit on the shelf... and sit... and sit. He finally solved this problem by having the high school kid he had as an afternoon counter clerk build them. Then they sold.

Dennis Storzek 


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Brian Carlson
 

I have enough kits fit the rest of my life lol. About 200 resin and plastic. I’m a slow builder. Things are always available if you look long enough. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Jul 25, 2021, at 7:38 PM, Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...> wrote:



I thought Accurail and Moloco were still manufacturing in the US. Accurail of course keeps their kits very simple. 

It's unfortunate that the hobby has gone the way it has. Tariff wars and mass and technological changes favoring produced 3 D prints may change the industry in the near future.  The longer future may bring raw material prices for plastic and resin both for 3D printing and casting to unaffordable levels due to climate change impact on future production of hydrocarbon based materials. 

Perhaps the future may make our modeling of layouts structures and railroad equipment affordable only a virtual exercise in super realistic simulator software.

--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Ken Adams
 

I thought Accurail and Moloco were still manufacturing in the US. Accurail of course keeps their kits very simple. 

It's unfortunate that the hobby has gone the way it has. Tariff wars and mass and technological changes favoring produced 3 D prints may change the industry in the near future.  The longer future may bring raw material prices for plastic and resin both for 3D printing and casting to unaffordable levels due to climate change impact on future production of hydrocarbon based materials. 

Perhaps the future may make our modeling of layouts structures and railroad equipment affordable only a virtual exercise in super realistic simulator software.

--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Tony Thompson
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:

If somebody wanted to go through the hassle of setting up a full-blown factory here in the US, talk to Accurail, Bowser, Con-Cor, Atlas, Inter-Mountain, or any other of the companies that eventually had to partially or completely give in to overseas production or assembly.   

Or maybe you would want to talk to Kadee instead. C’mon, Charlie. 

Tony Thompson



Re: ORER lookup help

Steve and Barb Hile
 

I believe that the SRLX 15000-15799 series cars are on Frank’s radar at Resin Car Works.  Those are brine tank cars with tabbed side sills.  The 15800-15999 were regular ice reefers with solid side sills.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2021 4:02 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ORER lookup help

 

Thanks for this information. It pretty clearly indicates the decline in numbers of these cars. While it might be asking for a lot, I would really like to see the SRLX 15000, 15800, and 25000 series cars from the 1959 and 1960 editions of the ORER. I have the 1/59 edition, so I'm one-eighth of the way there.

 

I do not know of any HO models of the 15000 series cars. It is possible to kitbash one from the Walthers meat reefer kit. The hard part is the doors with two latch bars and unusual hinges. I have not solved the hinge problem myself, but Stan Rydarowicz did for some of his products. I don't know how he did it.

 

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Jul 25, 2021 4:42 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ORER lookup help


In July 1972

SRLX   1000-15799     17 cars 36 foot RAM brine tank refrigerators
SRLX 15800-24999       6 cars 36 foot RSM ice reefers
SRLX 25000-24099     39 cars 56 foot RPM mechanical reefers (rebuilt ice reefers)

The 15000 series ice reefers - Has anyone ever produced an HO scale model for these cars?

Tim O'Connor



On 7/24/2021 10:49 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:

By 1966 the General American reefer fleet is really dwindling.  This is the second of two pages and mostly SRLX.


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: ORER lookup help

Richard Townsend
 

Thanks for this information. It pretty clearly indicates the decline in numbers of these cars. While it might be asking for a lot, I would really like to see the SRLX 15000, 15800, and 25000 series cars from the 1959 and 1960 editions of the ORER. I have the 1/59 edition, so I'm one-eighth of the way there.

I do not know of any HO models of the 15000 series cars. It is possible to kitbash one from the Walthers meat reefer kit. The hard part is the doors with two latch bars and unusual hinges. I have not solved the hinge problem myself, but Stan Rydarowicz did for some of his products. I don't know how he did it.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Jul 25, 2021 4:42 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ORER lookup help


In July 1972

SRLX   1000-15799     17 cars 36 foot RAM brine tank refrigerators
SRLX 15800-24999       6 cars 36 foot RSM ice reefers
SRLX 25000-24099     39 cars 56 foot RPM mechanical reefers (rebuilt ice reefers)

The 15000 series ice reefers - Has anyone ever produced an HO scale model for these cars?

Tim O'Connor



On 7/24/2021 10:49 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
By 1966 the General American reefer fleet is really dwindling.  This is the second of two pages and mostly SRLX.

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Charlie Vlk
 

I certainly can’t argue with Dennis as he has intimate firsthand real experience on all sides of the discussion and ocean.

 

I think the consumer might underestimate the system design and supervision that goes into the production of kits and finished items. 

To some degree the parts count problem is largely self-administering during the assembly of a finished item….it becomes pretty obvious at several stages of assembly and inspection that a part is missing if the system is set up properly.

Keeping track of the packing of a myriad of parts into a “kit” seems to me to be less obvious.   A miscounted screw or a mal-formed part on a sprue might be overlooked in packing but harder not notice during assembly. 

But, as Dennis says, it is largely moot as the oversees factories know what they are going to charge for a project and the outcome is not influenced by our logic at all.  

It used to drive me nuts when the production minimums for Undecorated or number-less units was the same as fully decorated items.  My thinking was just-set-aside-raw-plastic-parts-and-don’t-paint-them,-then,-assemble-them!   More sales, less overall work!!  But to their mind, no, a line item on a spreadsheet has to follow the “rule”.  ARGHHH!!!!  

(on topic, that was likely the reason that you had to buy 3 Kato ACF Covered Hoppers in one box….the profit on the SKU was pre-determined and that dictated the packaging….even though the consumer did not want to be forced to buy 3 of one roadname at a time…even if they were probably going to want six different numbers in that railroad!

It is what it is….deal with it, as Dennis says!!!

 

If somebody wanted to go through the hassle of setting up a full-blown factory here in the US, talk to Accurail, Bowser, Con-Cor, Atlas, Inter-Mountain, or any other of the companies that eventually had to partially or completely give in to overseas production or assembly.   Perhaps someday an open full service factory modeled on the Chinese Sandi Kan, Kader, etc.. success can be established to allow boutique Model Railroad Companies to continue without having to take on the myriad of problems for individual low-production enterprises.  At that point kits may make a comeback if there are appreciable differences in labor for assembly vs. straight packing…but don’t expect to ever see the equivalent of a $1.98 Blue Box kit!

 

Charlie Vlk

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 11:29 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

 

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 01:19 PM, Andy Carlson wrote:

Charlie, I can see that as an industry consultant that you may believe packaging kits is more expensive than making RTR cars.

 

That is so wrong--anyone who has watched Rapidos' video visits to their Chinese factories can't come up with your conclusion.

Andy,

None of that makes any difference.The problem is, those companies we think of as manufacturers, really aren't; they contract all their manufacturing out. As such, they have no direct control over their costs; they are at the mercy of what they are quoted. The Chicom manufacturers aren't stupid, they know that their costs are rising and if all they do is build the tools and mold the parts, the day will come where they start losing work to somewhere else. They recognize that their major advantage is their low cost of assembly, and for the last twenty years have manipulated their price quotes to "lock" their customers into a pre-assembled product. I recall Bill Wischer telling me that years ago he had tried to to split a run between between RTR and kits, and the prices he was given were within fifty cents of each other. Never mind that the contractor's costs likely were vastly different, this wasn't a cost plus deal, and what he was quoted was what he would have to pay. That fifty cents would only translate to a dollar on what at the time was a twenty dollar product, but the perceived added value to the customer of the pre-assembled model was five times that. Thus, it was simply not doable. Since China entered the model railroading supply chain, they have worked to totally change the character of the product, to their advantage.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition

Tony Thompson
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

We had a very extensive discussion about the "billboard reefer ban" back in 2014. View it here:
https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/topic/17252367#124611

The first thing to understand is it wasn't about shippers complaining about being offered cars with advertising painted on; it was about the railroads distaste for the reefer lease fleets, because while the railroads were obligated to maintain a fleet of reefers so they could supply a car if a load was offered, when a load in a lease car was offered, they had to pay car hire on the car, while the car they owned sat. It was quite a sore point during the twenties and early thirties.

While the ban did not cover owners names, it was rather ambiguous what could be construed as "advertising." Because of the fact that the remedy was refusal to accept the car in interchange, and this decision would be made multiple times during the cars trip, every time the car was interchanged between railroads, NOBODY wanted risk having a loaded car of meat or produce refused a thousand miles away from its point of origination, so initially NOBODY painted anything on the cars that could possibly be called advertising.

As time went on, the lease fleet issue receded, and after WWII cars began to sport colorful logos again, but from the late thirties through the war the freightcar fleet became very bland indeed.

Very good summary, Dennis. I would agree with almost all of it. The one point missed is that the railroads not only disliked the extensive private fleets, effectively competing with their own (which they didn’t manage to eliminate). More importantly, the leasing companies were REBATING mileage charges to the lessees, above some agreed minimum mileage per month. That reduced or in some cases even eliminated lease payments by the lessee, and of course encouraged as much roundabout load movements and empty mileage as possible, by lessee directions. The ICC found that this practice was indeed a rebate, long prohibited. With its elimination, much of the financial advantages of the lease contracts of the day disappeared.
Notice again that these significant regulatory issues do NOT include the advertising. It is a quite minor part of the ICC testimony and of the final ICC order. 

Tony Thompson


Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 10:27 AM, Bill Parks wrote:
Well then, when did this exclusive prohibition of refrigerator cars bearing product names relax?
I am thinking of Manufacturer's Railway Service Ralston-Purina checkerboard insulated/ventilated cars, Swift and Armour meat refrigerators with their names on the car sides?
These were running in the 1940's and '50's, carrying the shippers and/or product names.
We had a very extensive discussion about the "billboard reefer ban" back in 2014. View it here:
https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/topic/17252367#124611

The first thing to understand is it wasn't about shippers complaining about being offered cars with advertising painted on; it was about the railroads distaste for the reefer lease fleets, because while the railroads were obligated to maintain a fleet of reefers so they could supply a car if a load was offered, when a load in a lease car was offered, they had to pay car hire on the car, while the car they owned sat. It was quite a sore point during the twenties and early thirties.

While the ban did not cover owners names, it was rather ambiguous what could be construed as "advertising." Because of the fact that the remedy was refusal to accept the car in interchange, and this decision would be made multiple times during the cars trip, every time the car was interchanged between railroads, NOBODY wanted risk having a loaded car of meat or produce refused a thousand miles away from its point of origination, so initially NOBODY painted anything on the cars that could possibly be called advertising.

As time went on, the lease fleet issue receded, and after WWII cars began to sport colorful logos again, but from the late thirties through the war the freightcar fleet became very bland indeed.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Billboard Painting Prohibition. Was InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)

Tony Thompson
 

Thanks, Guy, for the details on this.

Tony Thompson
tony@signaturepress.com


Re: SEEKING PHOTO HELP

charles slater
 

Here you are Bill.
Ckarlie

Sent from Outlook



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 9:47 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] SEEKING PHOTO HELP
 

I am looking for a clear photo of the “B” end of a Santa Fe Ft-V flat car.  In particular I am looking at the drop[ brake staff mechanism.
The ph in the Santa Fe freight car book is a bit dark.

Thanks for any help”

Bill Pardie




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