Date   

Re: Wabash 88200-88699 Series Photos

Ray Hutchison
 


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

 

Have they produced anything new lately? Besides decals, signs, etc., that is. I don’t believe so. Most of the cars kits (if not all) came from Gould many years ago.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of "Chris Sawicki via groups.io" <casawicki2@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, July 26, 2021 at 9:51 PM
To: "main@realstmfc.groups.io" <main@realstmfc.groups.io>, "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

 

Tichy's expertise in injection molding shows in their kits (and still available).

 

Chris Sawicki 

 

On Monday, July 26, 2021, 09:14:03 PM CDT, Dennis Storzek <dennis@...> wrote:

 

 

Sam Clarke's comments on Kadee reminded me of another way North American model railroad manufacturers were organized. When Tichy Train Group was building big tools, complete car kits and the coaling tower, Don was a partner in a major custom injection molder. Such multi press shops typically have rather complete tool shops, so they can recover quickly from crashes and other major disasters. The rest of the time they do routine maintenance on the customer's molds, and if they have time left over... it's hard to sell, because few paying customers will stand for having their project delayed for weeks because the toolshop had to revert to their primary purpose and recondition a mold they have the contract to run. This was the perfect deal for a model railroad manufacturer, because it really doesn't matter if it takes 8 weeks or 20 weeks to complete a mold, the market demand won't go stale.

This wasn't all that unusual, I recall being told that Train Miniature of Illinois (the second owner) was basically the same deal. I've seen some of the TMI tooling, and the blanked out pockets made it clear that the mold bases had been reclaimed from other projects.

Dennis Storzek


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Chris Sawicki
 

Tichy's expertise in injection molding shows in their kits (and still available).

Chris Sawicki 

On Monday, July 26, 2021, 09:14:03 PM CDT, Dennis Storzek <dennis@...> wrote:


Sam Clarke's comments on Kadee reminded me of another way North American model railroad manufacturers were organized. When Tichy Train Group was building big tools, complete car kits and the coaling tower, Don was a partner in a major custom injection molder. Such multi press shops typically have rather complete tool shops, so they can recover quickly from crashes and other major disasters. The rest of the time they do routine maintenance on the customer's molds, and if they have time left over... it's hard to sell, because few paying customers will stand for having their project delayed for weeks because the toolshop had to revert to their primary purpose and recondition a mold they have the contract to run. This was the perfect deal for a model railroad manufacturer, because it really doesn't matter if it takes 8 weeks or 20 weeks to complete a mold, the market demand won't go stale.

This wasn't all that unusual, I recall being told that Train Miniature of Illinois (the second owner) was basically the same deal. I've seen some of the TMI tooling, and the blanked out pockets made it clear that the mold bases had been reclaimed from other projects.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Wabash 88200-88699 Series Photos

Nelson Moyer
 

Thanks, Tim. The color is too dark for models, so I’ll have to lighten it a few shades. At least I have a starting place. I have a bottle of Tru Color Wabash freight car red, so I’ll compare the swathes to that and go from there.

 

Now a side view would be wonderful.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2021 6:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Wabash 88200-88699 Series Photos

 


Here is a scan of an NJI&I paint sample (from Ed's TIFF scan) and also an "eyedropper" image
made from that paint sample scan.

Painted colors changed quickly in the real world. Unless you model only new cars, almost any
shade of  'oxide red'  is believable.

The colors look right to me, but I calibrated my screen. They may look different on your screen. :-(

Tim O'Connor


On 7/26/2021 4:35 PM, Ed Hawkins wrote:

 



On Jul 26, 2021, at 1:51 PM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

 

I pulled out the YMW Wabash 88200 series kit from the stash, and realized that the only color photo I have is the blurry photo of 88803 in a train. I can’t see the roof and underframe, so I don’t know the paint color. It appears that the truck side frames were black. These cars were built by ACF in 1948, so what was the Wabash paint practice at that time? I’d appreciate any color photos of these cars, especially showing B end details and location of the relief valve bleed rod.

 

Nelson,

WAB 88200-88699 was built by ACF in lot 3226. Paint specs from the ACF bill of materials:

 

Pittsburgh (first 167)/P.D. George Co. (next 167)/Sherwin-Williams (last 166) - Wabash #10 Red - sides, ends, trucks; black car cement - roof, underframe; black paint - AB brake parts; white - stencils.

 

This particular lot did not contain a paint sample, nor did any other Wabash orders of ACF box cars. It’s redder than “box car red” but is unlike “red oxide.” The Morning Sun Books Wabash / NKP / DT&I Color Guide has several photos that illustrate the color better than I can try to describe in words. 

 

Attached is the ACF B end builder photo, which is horribly back-lit. I worked on it in Photoshop, and it can be further adjusted to suit. Hopefully it’s sufficient to configure the end on your model & the end stencils. 

Regards,

Ed Hawkins

 

Attachments:

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

Sam Clarke's comments on Kadee reminded me of another way North American model railroad manufacturers were organized. When Tichy Train Group was building big tools, complete car kits and the coaling tower, Don was a partner in a major custom injection molder. Such multi press shops typically have rather complete tool shops, so they can recover quickly from crashes and other major disasters. The rest of the time they do routine maintenance on the customer's molds, and if they have time left over... it's hard to sell, because few paying customers will stand for having their project delayed for weeks because the toolshop had to revert to their primary purpose and recondition a mold they have the contract to run. This was the perfect deal for a model railroad manufacturer, because it really doesn't matter if it takes 8 weeks or 20 weeks to complete a mold, the market demand won't go stale.

This wasn't all that unusual, I recall being told that Train Miniature of Illinois (the second owner) was basically the same deal. I've seen some of the TMI tooling, and the blanked out pockets made it clear that the mold bases had been reclaimed from other projects.

Dennis Storzek


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Randy Hammill
 

From what I understand, Lionel tried Mexico and it nearly bankrupted them. I don’t have any hard information to support that claim,

As somebody who is trying to start our own thing, we have to eliminate as many variables as possible. Which means sticking with one of several factories in China, depending on the direction we are able to go. China not only has “one-stop shopping” but also a base of workers that have already produced model trains. It’s a known quantity. Moving to another country is basically starting from scratch. Something a company like Samsung can afford to do (which recently opened some huge facilities in Vietnam). So it will take a company or two to get the ball rolling to really move a significant amount of production elsewhere.

Randy
--

Randy Hammill
Prototype Junction
http://prototypejunction.com

Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954
http://newbritainstation.com


Re: St. Louis Refrigerator Car Co. models

Richard Townsend
 

Well, mostly no. Train Miniature did a version of a SLRX reefer with ice bunkers but I have no idea how close it might be dimensionally and detail-wise to the prototype cars (at least it's wood-sided and has ice hatches on the roof). The one in my reefer collection display cabinet is numbered 3192, so that's clearly wrong for these cars.

A long time ago I reworked a Train Miniature reefer that was decorated for Brookside Creamery in a "save the paint" effort. It involved removing the ice hatches and fixing the roof, replacing the running board, adding new ladders and grab irons, replacing the underframe and adding express trucks, and adding passenger brake components and steam and signal lines. It is possible to make a passable model from a Train Miniature car, but it may not be worth the effort depending on your standards.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Lester Breuer <rforailroad@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Jul 26, 2021 4:40 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] St. Louis Refrigerator Car Co. models

Tim SLRX Reefer is in the number series, 10000-10399 Ed  Hawkins mentions in his post.  And I was attempting to 
ask  if anyone knew of a model produced by any manufacturer done in this number series.
Lester Breuer


Re: St. Louis Refrigerator Car Co. models

Gene Deimling
 

Jim Zwernemann built this 1/4” scale model of the older truss rod series.  He used styrene as his primary material.  Jim attempted to use the Tichy decal set but ended taking a different route. 

Gene Deimling


Re: St. Louis Refrigerator Car Co. models

Lester Breuer
 

As for St. Louis Refrigerator Car Company, class RS, series 10000-10399, a photo of SLRX 10086 with clearly visible  ice hatches is in Ted Culotta’s book Steam Era Freight Cars Reference Manual Volume Three Refrigerator Cars, Page 202.
Lester Breuer


Re: Wabash 88200-88699 Series Photos

Tim O'Connor
 


Here is a scan of an NJI&I paint sample (from Ed's TIFF scan) and also an "eyedropper" image
made from that paint sample scan.

Painted colors changed quickly in the real world. Unless you model only new cars, almost any
shade of  'oxide red'  is believable.

The colors look right to me, but I calibrated my screen. They may look different on your screen. :-(

Tim O'Connor


On 7/26/2021 4:35 PM, Ed Hawkins wrote:


On Jul 26, 2021, at 1:51 PM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

I pulled out the YMW Wabash 88200 series kit from the stash, and realized that the only color photo I have is the blurry photo of 88803 in a train. I can’t see the roof and underframe, so I don’t know the paint color. It appears that the truck side frames were black. These cars were built by ACF in 1948, so what was the Wabash paint practice at that time? I’d appreciate any color photos of these cars, especially showing B end details and location of the relief valve bleed rod.

Nelson,
WAB 88200-88699 was built by ACF in lot 3226. Paint specs from the ACF bill of materials:

Pittsburgh (first 167)/P.D. George Co. (next 167)/Sherwin-Williams (last 166) - Wabash #10 Red - sides, ends, trucks; black car cement - roof, underframe; black paint - AB brake parts; white - stencils.

This particular lot did not contain a paint sample, nor did any other Wabash orders of ACF box cars. It’s redder than “box car red” but is unlike “red oxide.” The Morning Sun Books Wabash / NKP / DT&I Color Guide has several photos that illustrate the color better than I can try to describe in words. 

Attached is the ACF B end builder photo, which is horribly back-lit. I worked on it in Photoshop, and it can be further adjusted to suit. Hopefully it’s sufficient to configure the end on your model & the end stencils. 
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: St. Louis Refrigerator Car Co. models

Lester Breuer
 

Tim SLRX Reefer is in the number series, 10000-10399 Ed  Hawkins mentions in his post.  And I was attempting to 
ask  if anyone knew of a model produced by any manufacturer done in this number series.
Lester Breuer


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

SamClarke
 

Hello group,

I'm only going chime in with a few comments.

First, our "primary" products are "couplers". If we depended only on
"freight cars" we would not be in business, freight cars are a "secondary
product" for us more or less a sideline. We offer "kit" forms of some of our
freight cars and kits are more labor intensive than fully assembled RTR
cars. The time it takes to pull, count, and package all the parts and
instructions is more than putting the parts on an assembled car without
instructions.

On some cars it takes 2 to 3 years to do all the tooling for a complete new
freight car this includes different sorts of assembly jigs and such.

One of the biggest issues we have is finding "skilled" labor or even
somebody that actually wants to work. There is a distinct shortage of
skilled labor in this country and even if someone wanted to open a new model
manufacturing operation in the USA they I doubt they could find enough
people to work that would be willing to be trained or develop simple
assembly skills at an affordable labor rate. Actual labor "wages" is a lot
different than what a "labor rate" is.

We have a small group of very skilled people some have been with Kadee for
more than 30 years, that's the kind of skill and experience that can not
easily be replaced. This is my 26th year with Kadee and I'm planning on
retiring "sometime" this year, perhaps I might do some part time work here,
I just don't yet. Golf, fishing, and my art work are waiting.

We don't have a quality control issue, as other manufacturer's might have,
we just step into the back room and take care of it.

Nobody does business like Kadee does so I can't see comparing Kadee with
other manufacturers. This is our 75th year and we plan on being around for a
long time to come.

Now I've said more than I planned on, sorry.

Sam Clarke
R&D / Tech Advisor / Artist
Kadee Quality Products Co.
mail@...
541-826-3883

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf
Of Gerald Henriksen
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2021 1:48 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers
(Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 15:20:46 -0700, you wrote:

Charlie Vlk wrote:

If somebody wanted to go through the hassle of setting up a full-blown
factory here in the US, talk to Accurail, Bowser, Con-Cor, Atlas,
Inter-Mountain, or any other of the companies that eventually had to
partially or completely give in to overseas production or assembly.

Or maybe you would want to talk to Kadee instead. C'mon, Charlie.
Don't think customers would be happy to limit themselves to the small number
of models that Kadee has found it profitable to make.

Or take Bowser, who per their recent video still appear to do the tooling
and injection in the US - but spend years tooling up 1 new model.

We want more variety than that, and more complicated models, and that means
China or the next low cost jurisdiction.


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Randy Hammill
 

I have talked to Kadee. Several times. They don’t have capacity to finish all the projects they want, much less taking on somebody else’s.

They produce their freight cars utilizing excess capacity from their couplers business. It they were to only produce freight cars, it would have to be in China as well.

It’s a business model nobody else can replicate, unfortunately.

Randy
--

Randy Hammill
Prototype Junction
http://prototypejunction.com

Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954
http://newbritainstation.com


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

 

TONS of them. Athearn blue box, paint, and Champ decals.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

Micro-Trains anyway.  Like Brian’s example, the solution was to have somebody assemble the cars (all of a minute each) and then they sold.

Remember buying Karline repainted and decaled RTR cars because they offered roadnames, paint jobs and a variety of roadnumbers back when Athearn and MDC were running the same cars, year after year, without variation??

Charlie Vlk

 

 


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Mark Rossiter
 

I understand Bowser was one of the victims of the abrupt closure of one of the major Chinese factories several years ago.  I’m not sure if they were ever able to recover all of the molds used to produce their PCC and New Orleans streetcars.  Those are excellent models and were (still are) very popular, but became unavailable overnight with no hope of repair or replacement parts!

 

Mandatory freight car content:  Prototype streetcars were often delivered on flat cars!

 

Mark Rossiter 

 


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Charlie Vlk
 

On the other hand, I recall when Life-Like brought out their initial HO kits there was much bitching and moaning about the price…don’t recall the exact price point, but it was a few bucks more than the prevailing MDC and Athearn kits.

In N, the MDC kits laid an egg….even though they only consisted of a body, brake wheel and underframe.  The trucks and talgo couplers required assembly, but most were replacing them with Micro-Trains anyway.  Like Brian’s example, the solution was to have somebody assemble the cars (all of a minute each) and then they sold.

Remember buying Karline repainted and decaled RTR cars because they offered roadnames, paint jobs and a variety of roadnumbers back when Athearn and MDC were running the same cars, year after year, without variation??

Charlie Vlk

 


Re: Wabash 88200-88699 Series Photos

Nelson Moyer
 

Thanks for the photo and information, Ed. Looking at the end, I think the ladder has 16 inch rungs, and I would guess the side ladders had 18 in. rungs. Can you confirm that?

 

I have the Wabash in Color book, but no the color guide. Hopefully someone will provide color photos and a side view in either B&W or color.

 

Nelson Moyer

 


Re: InterMountain HO Scale Two-Bay Hoppers (Re-Release)-now Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Gerald Henriksen
 

On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 15:20:46 -0700, you wrote:

Charlie Vlk wrote:

If somebody wanted to go through the hassle of setting up a full-blown factory here in the US, talk to Accurail, Bowser, Con-Cor, Atlas, Inter-Mountain, or any other of the companies that eventually had to partially or completely give in to overseas production or assembly.
Or maybe you would want to talk to Kadee instead. C’mon, Charlie.
Don't think customers would be happy to limit themselves to the small
number of models that Kadee has found it profitable to make.

Or take Bowser, who per their recent video still appear to do the
tooling and injection in the US - but spend years tooling up 1 new
model.

We want more variety than that, and more complicated models, and that
means China or the next low cost jurisdiction.


Re: Wabash 88200-88699 Series Photos

Ed Hawkins
 



On Jul 26, 2021, at 1:51 PM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

I pulled out the YMW Wabash 88200 series kit from the stash, and realized that the only color photo I have is the blurry photo of 88803 in a train. I can’t see the roof and underframe, so I don’t know the paint color. It appears that the truck side frames were black. These cars were built by ACF in 1948, so what was the Wabash paint practice at that time? I’d appreciate any color photos of these cars, especially showing B end details and location of the relief valve bleed rod.

Nelson,
WAB 88200-88699 was built by ACF in lot 3226. Paint specs from the ACF bill of materials:

Pittsburgh (first 167)/P.D. George Co. (next 167)/Sherwin-Williams (last 166) - Wabash #10 Red - sides, ends, trucks; black car cement - roof, underframe; black paint - AB brake parts; white - stencils.

This particular lot did not contain a paint sample, nor did any other Wabash orders of ACF box cars. It’s redder than “box car red” but is unlike “red oxide.” The Morning Sun Books Wabash / NKP / DT&I Color Guide has several photos that illustrate the color better than I can try to describe in words. 

Attached is the ACF B end builder photo, which is horribly back-lit. I worked on it in Photoshop, and it can be further adjusted to suit. Hopefully it’s sufficient to configure the end on your model & the end stencils. 
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Why Aren't There Production Kits?

Tim O'Connor
 


There's probably a price (cost) threshold that will bring manufacturing back closer to the consumer.

New 'super quality' freight cars are almost all pushing $50 or more (some are MUCH more). And lots
of old junk models are selling just below that 'price umbrella' that gives them cover for asking $30 for
a product that has 10 parts assembled in two minutes from tooling that is 50+ years old in some cases.
The "Athearn Blue Box" group on Facebook represents a lot of people who love model trains but do
not want to spend a lot of money on them.

But other than Kadee (genius level design & manufacturing) I don't think those 'super quality' models are
going to be built here in our lifetimes, unless we build them. :-)

Tim O'Connor



On 7/26/2021 1:07 PM, Charlie Vlk wrote:
Tony-
Kadee and Micro-Trains are legacy Made in the U.S.A. businesses and God bless them for being able to keep them prospering.   They were fortunate to be in places and circumstances outside of the currents that swept away the others I mentioned and more.
It isn’t just the cost of labor that has driven companies to China.   Simply, the creation of turnkey manufacturing centers has removed most of the myriad of roadblocks to creating product....in many aspects.  It has allowed individuals to visualize and import world-class products which would not be possible to initiate here from scratch.
Somebody could invest their money in a new startup or even buy an existing company to prove that they can make kits here proving Atlas, Athearn, Con-Cor, Model Die Casting, and others were wrong.
Charlie Vlk

On Jul 25, 2021, at 5:20 PM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:
Or maybe you would want to talk to Kadee instead. _


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

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