Date   

Re: Preserving Historical Media

Edward
 

And many railroads themselves destroyed much of their historical records, memorabilia and collectable items when reorganizing management in the 1970's and 80's.  I am aware that B&O/Chessie ordered thousands of glass plate negatives destroyed in the late 1960's. Stored at the SIRT St .George Carpenter Shop, they covered development of the Staten Island Rapid Transit and the B&O New York Terminal operations from the 1880's onward.  I suppose you can't keep everything and finding places for it to go is an expense not justified for the bottom line, which for B&O/Chessie New York Terminal and SIRT operations was drowning in red ink.   A retired D&H Railroad Police supervisor told me the D&H did much the same with its dining car china when passenger service ended. Anyone trying to save any pieces of it or even 'dumpster diving' to retrieve something tossed out, could be arrested for theft because the dumpster was still on railroad property.  In the early 1970's any remaining materials related to the SIRT were packed up and sent to the C&O Railroad Historical Society, not the B&O RR HS.  I read some time ago that these materials were stored in someone's barn, awaiting a decision on what to do with them.  One photo from those materials has surfaced, now carrying a C&O RR HS copyright. It shows an SIRT ALCo S-2 switcher at St. George Yard with its crew and some officials posed with it, probably for presentation of an award of some sort. It is on the cover of a recent book about the Staten Island Rapid Transit. 

Ed Bommer  
   


Re: Preserving Historical Media

Brian Rochon
 

In addition to the SRHA, the B&O Railroad Historical Society also has a permanent archives building and significant document collections.  A team of 12-15 volunteers inventories, scans and archives the collection every Thursday.  We typically save our scanned documents, including photos, maps, drawings and other documents, as .tif files.  From Google:

 

TIF is an image format file for high-quality graphics. TIF files are also called .TIFF, which stands for “Tagged Image Format File.” TIF files were created in 1986 as a file format for scanned images in an attempt to get all companies to use one standard file format instead of multiple.”

 

We use PastPerfect as our archiving software to record all of the metadata (who, what, where, when, etc.) for an image and then link the scanned image to the archive.  Theoretically, we will never need to touch the original after this process.  PastPerfect is used by many museums, libraries, and historical societies throughout the country.

 

Although we have scanned and catalogued over 15,000 documents, we estimate that we have over 100,000 photos, maps and drawings that are not yet scanned and catalogued.  There are several times that number of company documents in the basement.  At least we have job security!

 

The Society receives donations of collections on a regular basis.   Most recently we received J. David Ingles B&O collection.  On the other hand, we know of several B&O collectors who have passed away and had their families dispose of the collections in whatever manner that they chose.  Several appear to be lost forever.

 

Brian Rochon

Silver Spring, MD

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 10:05 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Preserving Historical Media

 

I have to “second” all of Jerry’s and Tim’s comments!

 

As the Southern Railway group’s (SRHA) Archives Director, I am asked quite often if I know what happened to particular photos or document collections. Unfortunately, there may be several answers (other than “I have no idea”), the collection’s whereabouts are unknown but thought to exist somewhere, it was sold off piecemeal, they were donated or acquired by a museum or library, or they reside at one of the railroad historical groups.

 

Of those options, the “least bad” is where a collection has gone to a museum or library. That answer has a range of access that varies from "it might as well be buried under the building” (the David Salter collection at Kennesaw is an example) to easily researchable and accessible. In my opinion (disagree if you wish), any organization that does not have a specific focus on a particular topic will always be subject to local politics, funding or the personal interests of its management and donors.

 

Although not always the “best” home for historical material (e.g. individual’s basements or temporary locations), a number of the railroad historical groups have developed into high quality, secure archives that attract material on “their” railroad as they become known to railfans/historians/libraries and museums. With more than $1M invested in collections and a permanent archives building, I’ll suggest SRHA is one of those groups. (The L&NHS is in the process of moving their collections into the TVRM/SRHA building in Chattanooga now. All three groups believe that kind of participation is the answer for collections for the long term. TVRM has recently acquired a 10,000 sq. ft. building that will become an indoor museum across the street from the archives and adjacent to museum operations at Grand Junction.)

 

SRHA archives work sessions are the third weekend (Fri and Sat) of every month. Everyone is invited to visit, do research on the Southern, Central or Georgia or help with various projects. (archives@...)

 

Ike


Re: Preserving Historical Media

Thomas Evans
 

Umm - perhaps I'm just dense or something, but I've looked back a bit to see if I can find the original discussion to which these posts refer, but I've been unsuccessful.
Could one of you perhaps supply a link?

Thanks - Tom E.


Re: Preserving Historical Media

George Eichelberger
 

I have to “second” all of Jerry’s and Tim’s comments!

As the Southern Railway group’s (SRHA) Archives Director, I am asked quite often if I know what happened to particular photos or document collections. Unfortunately, there may be several answers (other than “I have no idea”), the collection’s whereabouts are unknown but thought to exist somewhere, it was sold off piecemeal, they were donated or acquired by a museum or library, or they reside at one of the railroad historical groups.

Of those options, the “least bad” is where a collection has gone to a museum or library. That answer has a range of access that varies from "it might as well be buried under the building” (the David Salter collection at Kennesaw is an example) to easily researchable and accessible. In my opinion (disagree if you wish), any organization that does not have a specific focus on a particular topic will always be subject to local politics, funding or the personal interests of its management and donors.

Although not always the “best” home for historical material (e.g. individual’s basements or temporary locations), a number of the railroad historical groups have developed into high quality, secure archives that attract material on “their” railroad as they become known to railfans/historians/libraries and museums. With more than $1M invested in collections and a permanent archives building, I’ll suggest SRHA is one of those groups. (The L&NHS is in the process of moving their collections into the TVRM/SRHA building in Chattanooga now. All three groups believe that kind of participation is the answer for collections for the long term. TVRM has recently acquired a 10,000 sq. ft. building that will become an indoor museum across the street from the archives and adjacent to museum operations at Grand Junction.)

SRHA archives work sessions are the third weekend (Fri and Sat) of every month. Everyone is invited to visit, do research on the Southern, Central or Georgia or help with various projects. (archives@...)

Ike




Re: Preserving Historical Media

Ray Breyer
 

I have jpegs scanned in 1998 and PDFs scanned in 1995 that all work just fine.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Wednesday, September 8, 2021, 08:45:24 AM CDT, Edward <edb8381@...> wrote:


One of the gravest issues with digital media is that the software for retrieving and viewing becomes outdated and new operating platforms do not support older programming. It takes much effort to continually bring old files up to date for current operating compatibility. 
Ed Bommer


Re: Preserving Historical Media

Edward
 

One of the gravest issues with digital media is that the software for retrieving and viewing becomes outdated and new operating platforms do not support older programming. It takes much effort to continually bring old files up to date for current operating compatibility. 
Ed Bommer


Preserving Historical Media

Jerry Michels
 

I firmly support what Tim and Dick have posted.  For over 30 years I have cajoled people with Missouri Pacific information (slides, prints, egativers, paper items, etc.) to get them 'out of the closet' and share them with the rest of the world.  I wish the idea that hoarding historical information of little monetary value is not the way to help future generations in their search for information would take hold.  In fact, I think risking loss of important information to unknowing heirs is irresponsible.  I have known too many hoarders who for some reason think their inaccessible information is either going to make them rich (it won't) or they attain some level of prestige by keeping information in the basement and being able to declare that they have it but won't share. 

I agree with Tim that paper is probably the most durable way to retain information, but that is only because we are not experienced enough in digital storage to really make a call.  In the case of paper information, I lean toward scanning and saving to several sources.  My own material is on a thumb drive, on my main computer, stored on an NAS drive, and backed up at a commercial site (actually in the UK). Yea, I know it is geeky, but the data is not going to be lost. 

I am also for giving/donating as much media to well-curated archives, such as the Missouri Pacific Historical Society's archive in St. Louis. I have been sending them digital copies and originals for a long time.  There really is a good feeling associated with knowing that the material I have come across over time is preserved, and I can access it if I need it with very little trouble.  It is also shareable with up and coming railroad enthusiasts. 

It is worth some serious consideration.

Jerry Michels


Re: Wa Sunshine Kits...

Dick Harley
 


I'd say if Jack has a digital photo collection that he intends to go to the CSRM Library, why not donate it NOW?
Then the rest of the world can have access and use it.  Or maybe see something that gets them interested in trains or even the YVRR.

Hoarding this stuff in our closets is silly.  And yes, sometimes it all gets thrown away by our heirs.
I have put much of my drawing collection and personal photos on my SmugMug site.  Still a lot more to go, but I do work on it.
https://harley-trains.smugmug.com/

Cheers,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach,  CA


Re: Wa Sunshine Kits...

Tim O'Connor
 


I think wide sharing is really is the best guarantee of -digital- preservation, at least for a generation.
After I'd scanned a few thousand slides, I shared a large number of them via Dropbox. As for thousands
of physical slides, I'm not really sure what to do with them, or with my library of books. It would be a
shame for them to end up in a dumpster.

CD's and other electronic storage is NOT archival - They do degrade over time. Paper has proven to
be the most durable form of preservation, if it's well cared for - and that would include prints. Negatives
and slides (depending on film type) can last a long time, although we don't really know how long that is,
since it has existed for just over 100 years. So much information now exists only in electronic form -
and it requires non-stop money and electricity to preserve it. It worries me. :-\

And don't get me started on cryptocurrency. It's secure - until the electricity and components that keep
it alive just -poof- disappear someday in the future. Just maintaining it already uses more electricity than
dozens of countries use. It is NOT climate friendly.

My entire digital train photos collection is 30 GB now - so I can fit it onto a USB thumb drive. I have
shared (and people have shared with me) thumb drives of photos, so that's a good way to get duplicates
out there in the 'cloud' of enthusiasts.

Tim O'Connor


On 9/7/2021 1:59 PM, Robert G P wrote:
I like your thinking jack!

On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 2:06 PM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Jack

Turn them into a massive NFT (non-fungible token). Everybody's doing it ! And then sell it for millions ! :-)

If it's in The Cloud, then it's safe. Or so we are led to believe. :-D

Tim O'Connor


On 9/5/2021 7:38 PM, Jack Burgess wrote:

I have about 3,800 historic photos of my prototype, the Yosemite Valley Railroad. There are actual photo prints of probably 25% of them. The rest are all high resolution scans.

 

Our Trust specifies that all of those photos (plus the scans of all of them) plus research documents, YV documents, etc. be donated to the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento. What if there is a house fire? There is a set of CDs of the photos in a fireproof safe. What if there is a massive earthquake and our entire town disappears? Other YV fans across the US (and in the Netherlands) have scans of every photo.

 

Just planning ahead…

 

Jack Burgess



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Wa Sunshine Kits...

Robert G P
 

I like your thinking jack!


On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 2:06 PM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Jack

Turn them into a massive NFT (non-fungible token). Everybody's doing it ! And then sell it for millions ! :-)

If it's in The Cloud, then it's safe. Or so we are led to believe. :-D

Tim O'Connor


On 9/5/2021 7:38 PM, Jack Burgess wrote:

I have about 3,800 historic photos of my prototype, the Yosemite Valley Railroad. There are actual photo prints of probably 25% of them. The rest are all high resolution scans.

 

Our Trust specifies that all of those photos (plus the scans of all of them) plus research documents, YV documents, etc. be donated to the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento. What if there is a house fire? There is a set of CDs of the photos in a fireproof safe. What if there is a massive earthquake and our entire town disappears? Other YV fans across the US (and in the Netherlands) have scans of every photo.

 

Just planning ahead…

 

Jack Burgess


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] ACF Type 11 Tankcar

Chris Barkan
 

Bruce, I agree with what you say; I misunderstood the intended meaning of the title of Charlie Duckworth's original post so thank you for the clarification.

As for Steve's point about ACF's and GA's use of the term "type".  As you probably know, several of Richard Hendrickson's articles published in the 1990s suggest that this was indeed ACF's nomenclature.  Here is a quote from his July 1997 RMJ article entitled AC&F Type 27 ICC-103 10,000-Gallon Tank Cars,  "Both of the major American tank car builders, American Car & Foundry and General American, assigned type numbers to each new design indicating the year in which it first appeared. Thus AC&F Type 27 tank cars were introduced in 1927, replacing the Type 21 design that dated from 1921. The Type 27 then continued in production through the Great Depression and WWI I until it was discontinued in favor of all welded tank cars in the late 1940s"
Richard's wording suggests that it was indeed GA practice to do this as well but he does not cite a reference.
ACF's practice is clearly described on page 217 of Ed Kaminski's ACF Tank Car book but I have no comparable reference for GA.  If anyone else does perhaps they can share what can be learned from that.
Chris Barkan
Champaign, IL


--
Chris Barkan
Champaign, IL


Re: used to load and unload steam era freight cars...

Andy Laurent
 

On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 12:07 PM, Claus Schlund \(HGM\) wrote:
Hi List Members,
 
While the image below does not feature freight cars (there are some in the background tho...) the hand powered crane shown certainly was used to load and unload steam era freight cars...
 
The foundation for that NJI&I crane is still visible in South Bend, IN right here at the corner of Edward and McPherson Streets: https://goo.gl/maps/onHpE16Si4rQW5r57 
The diamond that the NJI&I used to cross the NYC (SS&S) to reach Studebaker Corp was immediately north of that crane.
Andy
 
 


Re: ACF Type 11 Tankcar

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Another big challenge with the English language includes our use of different words for similar things.  Here it is Class and Type.

 

Chris quoted from a document in an earlier post.  MCB, later ARA and then ICC specifications differentiated between “Classes” of tank cars.

 

ACF used the word “Type” together with a year to designate significant design changes in its tank cars, although construction of Types often overlapped.  So, the F&C kit is an MCB/ARA Class II AND an ACF Type 11, while the P2k car is a an ARA Class III and an ACF Type 21.

 

To further challenge us, UTLX referred to their designs as “Classes.”  So, their Class X and Class V cars were MCB/ARA Class II.  To meet the ARA Class III specs (to which they were a party in the creation) UTLX created their Class X-3 cars, whose design evolved over the next 20 or so years.

 

I am not sure whether the Type+Year designations we use for General American tank car designs come from the company or us modelers.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Barkan
Sent: Monday, September 6, 2021 2:55 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ACF Type 11 Tankcar

 

Thanks Tim.  I just now saw Eric's message above about this as well.  If it was built in the interval 1903 - 1917 then it is an ARA Type II.  If the ACF designation "11" reflects, built in 1911 then by definition, it was both a Type 11 and a Type II. :-)

I have not seen the photos that have it stenciled as a Type III, if you, or Eric or anyone wishes to post them, I'd like seeing them.
--
Chris Barkan
Champaign, IL


Re: ACF Type 11 Tankcar

Chris Barkan
 

Thanks Tim.  I just now saw Eric's message above about this as well.  If it was built in the interval 1903 - 1917 then it is an ARA Type II.  If the ACF designation "11" reflects, built in 1911 then by definition, it was both a Type 11 and a Type II. :-)

I have not seen the photos that have it stenciled as a Type III, if you, or Eric or anyone wishes to post them, I'd like seeing them.
--
Chris Barkan
Champaign, IL


Re: Central Ohio RPM is happening Sept 23-25

bongiovanni12001
 

Denis: maybe it’s on the site but I didn’t see it: any tentative clinic list?  Thanks

Frank 


Re: ACF Type 11 Tankcar

Tim O'Connor
 

Chris

ACF (?) numbered the designs of the underframe from the first year of production - That's what
I understood, at least. So ACF Type-21 1921, ACF Type-27, 1927, and so on. I think the model
is an ACF Type-11. It may also be an ARA Type II, as you describe - but photos shows ARA III
stencils.

The (?) means I don't know if these types are ACF builder designations, or railfan designations.

Tim O'Connor


On 9/6/2021 3:07 PM, Chris Barkan wrote:
A small correction/clarification to this thread title; I think that the F&C kit is intended to represent a Type II, as in roman numeral "two", not a Type 11, as in "eleven".

For those unfamiliar with the early tank car designations, I have excerpted several explanatory sentences from Tom Dalrymple's chapter on tank cars in the 1997 Car & Locomotive Cyclopedia.  Tom's history was in turn derived from Frank Heller's 1970 ASME paper entitled "Evolution of Tank Car Design Through Engineering" (In 1973 Heller republished the paper re-titled as "A history of tank cars" in the The Bulletin of the National Railway Historical Society, Vol. 38, No.1 pp 17-35, 51.)

"In 1903, the Master Car Builders' Association, composed of mechanical representatives of the railroads, and a representative of Standard Oil formed a Tank Car Committee and drafted the first recommended practices for the design and construction of tank cars. ... All cars built prior to 1903 were designated Class I and cars built thereafter were designated Class II"
"In 1917, the Master Car Builders' Association began to develop standards that sought to match the specifications of tank cars to the commodities that they were authorized to transport. Class I cars were restricted to non-flammable, non-hazardous commodities. Class II tank cars could no longer be built, and two new classes III and IV were established."
In 1927, when the ICC assumed authority for tank car specifications for hazardous commodities, "...ARA III became ICC 103, ARA IV became ICC 104, etc."
--
Chris Barkan
Champaign, IL

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] ACF Type 11 Tankcar

Bruce Smith
 

Chris,

We've been down this road before. The F&C kit represents BOTH an AC&F type 11 and AAR/ARA type 2. Calling it an AC&F type 11 is FAR more descriptive than calling it an ARA type 2, since every tank built after the adoption on the type 2 designation up until the introduction of Type 3 circa 1917 (and some built to war emergency designs during WWII) was a "type 2". 

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Chris Barkan <cplbarkan@...>
Sent: Monday, September 6, 2021 2:07 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] ACF Type 11 Tankcar
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
A small correction/clarification to this thread title; I think that the F&C kit is intended to represent a Type II, as in roman numeral "two", not a Type 11, as in "eleven".

For those unfamiliar with the early tank car designations, I have excerpted several explanatory sentences from Tom Dalrymple's chapter on tank cars in the 1997 Car & Locomotive Cyclopedia.  Tom's history was in turn derived from Frank Heller's 1970 ASME paper entitled "Evolution of Tank Car Design Through Engineering" (In 1973 Heller republished the paper re-titled as "A history of tank cars" in the The Bulletin of the National Railway Historical Society, Vol. 38, No.1 pp 17-35, 51.)

"In 1903, the Master Car Builders' Association, composed of mechanical representatives of the railroads, and a representative of Standard Oil formed a Tank Car Committee and drafted the first recommended practices for the design and construction of tank cars. ... All cars built prior to 1903 were designated Class I and cars built thereafter were designated Class II"
"In 1917, the Master Car Builders' Association began to develop standards that sought to match the specifications of tank cars to the commodities that they were authorized to transport. Class I cars were restricted to non-flammable, non-hazardous commodities. Class II tank cars could no longer be built, and two new classes III and IV were established."
In 1927, when the ICC assumed authority for tank car specifications for hazardous commodities, "...ARA III became ICC 103, ARA IV became ICC 104, etc."
--
Chris Barkan
Champaign, IL


Re: ACF Type 11 Tankcar

Chris Barkan
 

A small correction/clarification to this thread title; I think that the F&C kit is intended to represent a Type II, as in roman numeral "two", not a Type 11, as in "eleven".

For those unfamiliar with the early tank car designations, I have excerpted several explanatory sentences from Tom Dalrymple's chapter on tank cars in the 1997 Car & Locomotive Cyclopedia.  Tom's history was in turn derived from Frank Heller's 1970 ASME paper entitled "Evolution of Tank Car Design Through Engineering" (In 1973 Heller republished the paper re-titled as "A history of tank cars" in the The Bulletin of the National Railway Historical Society, Vol. 38, No.1 pp 17-35, 51.)

"In 1903, the Master Car Builders' Association, composed of mechanical representatives of the railroads, and a representative of Standard Oil formed a Tank Car Committee and drafted the first recommended practices for the design and construction of tank cars. ... All cars built prior to 1903 were designated Class I and cars built thereafter were designated Class II"
"In 1917, the Master Car Builders' Association began to develop standards that sought to match the specifications of tank cars to the commodities that they were authorized to transport. Class I cars were restricted to non-flammable, non-hazardous commodities. Class II tank cars could no longer be built, and two new classes III and IV were established."
In 1927, when the ICC assumed authority for tank car specifications for hazardous commodities, "...ARA III became ICC 103, ARA IV became ICC 104, etc."
--
Chris Barkan
Champaign, IL


Re: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] ACF Type 11 Tankcar

Bruce Smith
 

I didn't replace the rivets, like Bill did, but I did do a number of upgrades to the F&C kit. I did remove the rivet lines for the fradial courses on the bottom longitudinal course, as well as the bottom centerline rivets, as neither are accurate. One of the glaring omissions to me was the absence of the tank anchors. I also used precision scale brass handrail stanchions. I made the first one I built into a PRR TM8 class car, in company service. Shamelss plug - I wrote this build up in The Keystone Modeler, #61, August, 2008 😉

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of william darnaby <wdarnaby@...>
Sent: Monday, September 6, 2021 9:17 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] ACF Type 11 Tankcar
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
A few years back I finished three of these guys and they can be built into nice models.  The tank is crude because, as somebody mentioned, a brass model was used as the master resulting in the rivet detail being faint to nonexistent.  The solution is to scrape all of them off and replace with Archer rivets.  I am pretty sure I used Speedwitch decals for the DX and Mobil versions that I have.

Bill Darnaby



Re: Wa Sunshine Kits...

Tim O'Connor
 

Jack

Turn them into a massive NFT (non-fungible token). Everybody's doing it ! And then sell it for millions ! :-)

If it's in The Cloud, then it's safe. Or so we are led to believe. :-D

Tim O'Connor


On 9/5/2021 7:38 PM, Jack Burgess wrote:

I have about 3,800 historic photos of my prototype, the Yosemite Valley Railroad. There are actual photo prints of probably 25% of them. The rest are all high resolution scans.

 

Our Trust specifies that all of those photos (plus the scans of all of them) plus research documents, YV documents, etc. be donated to the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento. What if there is a house fire? There is a set of CDs of the photos in a fireproof safe. What if there is a massive earthquake and our entire town disappears? Other YV fans across the US (and in the Netherlands) have scans of every photo.

 

Just planning ahead…

 

Jack Burgess


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

1741 - 1760 of 188733