Date   

Re: Help!

Jerry Michels
 

Brian, how about using the thinnest stripwood you can find to make a rectangle for the sign, attach with Elmers, and then attach the wood to the car side with contact cement, ACC, or something else?  Jerry Michels


Re: Help!

 

Thanks for your suggestions.

 

Actually, I remembered (after sending the email, of course) that I had some 3M adhesive tape I bought for building some brass passenger cars that have multiple side pieces. I used that. It’s permanent.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: BRIAN PAUL EHNI <bpehni@...>
Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 2:22 PM
To: realSTMFC <realSTMFC@groups.io>, Baby Boomer Freight Car List <bbfcl@groups.io>, "MFCL@groups.io" <MFCL@groups.io>
Subject: Help!

 

I am re-creating the box car in the attached photo. I have done everything except affix the white paper sign to the right side. I’m a little anxious about how to do this without discoloring the white paper, and making sure the sign stays put (adhering paper to plastic). Most contact cements are not clear, and would soak into the paper, discoloring it. I’ve considered plain old thinned Elmer’s glue, but worry it won’t stay put.

 

Any ideas?

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 


Re: Preserving Historical Media

Jerry Michels
 

Tony, you wrote: "And though it does appear that such formats as TIFF and PDF are holding up -- so far — they may well be superseded in the future. Obviously any archive has to stay on top of such issues and be proactive about changing."  I agree wholeheartedly. There is no doubt that curation is of utmost importance.  However, I do not share the current worry that media and file types used today will become useless overnight.  I have been knocking around computers since 1975 or so and there has always been adequate time to change media and file types to new formats.  Heck, I have txt files from the 1980s that I can still access.  They were originally on 8 1/2 'floppy' disks! But I've curated them well and have them as PDF files.  I will keep an eye out for the change to .nano!

However, I think the real danger is not media or file types changing or becoming degraded, but originals ending up lost in landfills like so many that were dumped by the railroads themselves. Let's improve the material getting out to the public, then worry about the media it is stored upon.  I know lots and lots of ART history has been lost forever.

Jerry Michels


Re: Help!

Rick Woods
 

Try a light coat of 3M spray mount adhesive.  If you want it to be "permanent", slap it on the car right away while still wet.
If you want it to be removable, let it air dry for a a bit, then slap it on the car.  In this instance, if it falls off, re-apply.
--
Rick Woods
Elkhorn, WI


Re: Help!

Tony Thompson
 

Canopy glue! I use it all the time for paper onto models. 

Tony Thompson



On Sep 8, 2021, at 12:22 PM, BRIAN PAUL EHNI <bpehni@...> wrote:

I am re-creating the box car in the attached photo. I have done everything except affix the white paper sign to the right side. I’m a little anxious about how to do this without discoloring the white paper, and making sure the sign stays put (adhering paper to plastic). Most contact cements are not clear, and would soak into the paper, discoloring it. I’ve considered plain old thinned Elmer’s glue, but worry it won’t stay put.
 
Any ideas?
 
 
Thanks!
--
<image001.png>
Brian Ehni
 
<CNW 71838 OTC UNCLES AVE DON BOB BARNARD-1.jpg><image001.png>


Help!

 

I am re-creating the box car in the attached photo. I have done everything except affix the white paper sign to the right side. I’m a little anxious about how to do this without discoloring the white paper, and making sure the sign stays put (adhering paper to plastic). Most contact cements are not clear, and would soak into the paper, discoloring it. I’ve considered plain old thinned Elmer’s glue, but worry it won’t stay put.

 

Any ideas?

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 


Re: Preserving Historical Media

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony

There is no reason to be concerned about file formats - JPEG TIFF PNG GIF etc etc - because they are simply logical layouts of information that any 12 year old computer programmer could easily decode. It's the physical storage (as Tony describes) that becomes obsolete on a regular basis - partly because there is a powerful incentive (we used to call it Planned Obsolescence) which is MONEY. When I worked on high speed internet routers that could switch terabits of data in just a few seconds, we knew that random 'alpha particles' coming through the Earth's atmosphere could 'flip' a 0 to a 1 or 1 to a 0 - and without 'error correcting' encoding there's no way to repair it. The problem is that redundancy in the encodings takes up space - The better the correction algorithm, the more space it takes up! So your PC and most of the world's computers and storage systems use only 'parity checks' - A single bit error can be detected, but not fixed. When it happens, your PC usually reboots itself since an error can lead to very bad things happening. Over time it is a CERTAINTY that everything is struck again and again with these random cosmic rays.

So anyway, a DIGITAL ARCHIVE could encode whatever they have (eg images) inside a "wrapper" that provides protection against these random errors - regardless of the media used to store them. That would ensure the integrity of the data for centuries, at least.

Or here's a thought - transfer the DIGITAL images to ANALOG films with a known long life span (like Kodachrome haha). Then store them safely, away from light, heat, humidity, and even air. :-)

Tim O'Connor

P.S. I think this topic began as SUNSHINE something or other... :-D

P.P.S. As the Age of Technology reaches its peak, only now do we old folks realize that it can't possibly go on forever. If it weren't for a few scraps of papyrus and stone carvings mankind would know almost nothing about Greece or Rome or ancient China. Will there be any scraps from our tech epoch, I wonder?

On 9/8/2021 2:04 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
The comment on this topic, made in passing, about obsolescence of storage media, is far from trivial. Museums and libraries which began to store information on various kinds of disks had to transfer them to CD and then to DVD. A number then had policies to re-record those disks every five years, in case disks weren’t actually permanent. Today, disk readers are already obsolescent as solid-state storage gains ground. If you were an archive director, how would you like to confront the investment necessary to change storage media for a large collection?

And though it does appear that such formats as TIFF and PDF are holding up -- so far — they may well be superseded in the future. Obviously any archive has to stay on top of such issues and be proactive about changing.

An example often cited in this context is the change made by many libraries, to be able to dispose of voluminous newspaper holdings: just transfer them to microfilm! Problem solved, old newspapers dumped. Then over the years, the microfilm got scratched and faded in use, and the microfilm readers, now unsupported in many cases, were hard to repair. But the originals were gone. Lesson learned? We’ll see.

Tony Thompson
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*


Re: Reefer Load Of Fish

Tony Thompson
 

Bob Chaparro wrote:

Reefer Load Of Fish
Photo courtesy of Barry Sell.
He commented:
“Tiedtke's Department Store, Toledo, Ohio [approximately 1950]
A photo of a refrigerated railcar advertising Tiedtke's Carload Fish Sale. The department store was located at the corner of Adams and Summit Streets in Toledo, Ohio.”
Two points. First, the banner would not have been allowed in transit, so was obviously applied in place, to publicize the sale. Second, there is no reason to believe the reefer shown necessarily brought the fish for a “carload” sale. It just supports the banner.

Tony Thompson
tony@...


Re: Preserving Historical Media

Tony Thompson
 

The comment on this topic, made in passing, about obsolescence of storage media, is far from trivial. Museums and libraries which began to store information on various kinds of disks had to transfer them to CD and then to DVD. A number then had policies to re-record those disks every five years, in case disks weren’t actually permanent. Today, disk readers are already obsolescent as solid-state storage gains ground. If you were an archive director, how would you like to confront the investment necessary to change storage media for a large collection?

And though it does appear that such formats as TIFF and PDF are holding up -- so far — they may well be superseded in the future. Obviously any archive has to stay on top of such issues and be proactive about changing.

An example often cited in this context is the change made by many libraries, to be able to dispose of voluminous newspaper holdings: just transfer them to microfilm! Problem solved, old newspapers dumped. Then over the years, the microfilm got scratched and faded in use, and the microfilm readers, now unsupported in many cases, were hard to repair. But the originals were gone. Lesson learned? We’ll see.

Tony Thompson
tony@...


Reefer Load Of Fish

Bob Chaparro
 

Reefer Load Of Fish

Photo courtesy of Barry Sell.

He commented:

“Tiedtke's Department Store, Toledo, Ohio [approximately 1950]

A photo of a refrigerated railcar advertising Tiedtke's Carload Fish Sale. The department store was located at the corner of Adams and Summit Streets in Toledo, Ohio.”

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Preserving Historical Media

Edward
 

And many railroads themselves destroyed much of their historical records, memorabilia and collectable items when reorganizing management in the 1970's and 80's.  I am aware that B&O/Chessie ordered thousands of glass plate negatives destroyed in the late 1960's. Stored at the SIRT St .George Carpenter Shop, they covered development of the Staten Island Rapid Transit and the B&O New York Terminal operations from the 1880's onward.  I suppose you can't keep everything and finding places for it to go is an expense not justified for the bottom line, which for B&O/Chessie New York Terminal and SIRT operations was drowning in red ink.   A retired D&H Railroad Police supervisor told me the D&H did much the same with its dining car china when passenger service ended. Anyone trying to save any pieces of it or even 'dumpster diving' to retrieve something tossed out, could be arrested for theft because the dumpster was still on railroad property.  In the early 1970's any remaining materials related to the SIRT were packed up and sent to the C&O Railroad Historical Society, not the B&O RR HS.  I read some time ago that these materials were stored in someone's barn, awaiting a decision on what to do with them.  One photo from those materials has surfaced, now carrying a C&O RR HS copyright. It shows an SIRT ALCo S-2 switcher at St. George Yard with its crew and some officials posed with it, probably for presentation of an award of some sort. It is on the cover of a recent book about the Staten Island Rapid Transit. 

Ed Bommer  
   


Re: Preserving Historical Media

Brian Rochon
 

In addition to the SRHA, the B&O Railroad Historical Society also has a permanent archives building and significant document collections.  A team of 12-15 volunteers inventories, scans and archives the collection every Thursday.  We typically save our scanned documents, including photos, maps, drawings and other documents, as .tif files.  From Google:

 

TIF is an image format file for high-quality graphics. TIF files are also called .TIFF, which stands for “Tagged Image Format File.” TIF files were created in 1986 as a file format for scanned images in an attempt to get all companies to use one standard file format instead of multiple.”

 

We use PastPerfect as our archiving software to record all of the metadata (who, what, where, when, etc.) for an image and then link the scanned image to the archive.  Theoretically, we will never need to touch the original after this process.  PastPerfect is used by many museums, libraries, and historical societies throughout the country.

 

Although we have scanned and catalogued over 15,000 documents, we estimate that we have over 100,000 photos, maps and drawings that are not yet scanned and catalogued.  There are several times that number of company documents in the basement.  At least we have job security!

 

The Society receives donations of collections on a regular basis.   Most recently we received J. David Ingles B&O collection.  On the other hand, we know of several B&O collectors who have passed away and had their families dispose of the collections in whatever manner that they chose.  Several appear to be lost forever.

 

Brian Rochon

Silver Spring, MD

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 10:05 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Preserving Historical Media

 

I have to “second” all of Jerry’s and Tim’s comments!

 

As the Southern Railway group’s (SRHA) Archives Director, I am asked quite often if I know what happened to particular photos or document collections. Unfortunately, there may be several answers (other than “I have no idea”), the collection’s whereabouts are unknown but thought to exist somewhere, it was sold off piecemeal, they were donated or acquired by a museum or library, or they reside at one of the railroad historical groups.

 

Of those options, the “least bad” is where a collection has gone to a museum or library. That answer has a range of access that varies from "it might as well be buried under the building” (the David Salter collection at Kennesaw is an example) to easily researchable and accessible. In my opinion (disagree if you wish), any organization that does not have a specific focus on a particular topic will always be subject to local politics, funding or the personal interests of its management and donors.

 

Although not always the “best” home for historical material (e.g. individual’s basements or temporary locations), a number of the railroad historical groups have developed into high quality, secure archives that attract material on “their” railroad as they become known to railfans/historians/libraries and museums. With more than $1M invested in collections and a permanent archives building, I’ll suggest SRHA is one of those groups. (The L&NHS is in the process of moving their collections into the TVRM/SRHA building in Chattanooga now. All three groups believe that kind of participation is the answer for collections for the long term. TVRM has recently acquired a 10,000 sq. ft. building that will become an indoor museum across the street from the archives and adjacent to museum operations at Grand Junction.)

 

SRHA archives work sessions are the third weekend (Fri and Sat) of every month. Everyone is invited to visit, do research on the Southern, Central or Georgia or help with various projects. (archives@...)

 

Ike


Re: Preserving Historical Media

Thomas Evans
 

Umm - perhaps I'm just dense or something, but I've looked back a bit to see if I can find the original discussion to which these posts refer, but I've been unsuccessful.
Could one of you perhaps supply a link?

Thanks - Tom E.


Re: Preserving Historical Media

George Eichelberger
 

I have to “second” all of Jerry’s and Tim’s comments!

As the Southern Railway group’s (SRHA) Archives Director, I am asked quite often if I know what happened to particular photos or document collections. Unfortunately, there may be several answers (other than “I have no idea”), the collection’s whereabouts are unknown but thought to exist somewhere, it was sold off piecemeal, they were donated or acquired by a museum or library, or they reside at one of the railroad historical groups.

Of those options, the “least bad” is where a collection has gone to a museum or library. That answer has a range of access that varies from "it might as well be buried under the building” (the David Salter collection at Kennesaw is an example) to easily researchable and accessible. In my opinion (disagree if you wish), any organization that does not have a specific focus on a particular topic will always be subject to local politics, funding or the personal interests of its management and donors.

Although not always the “best” home for historical material (e.g. individual’s basements or temporary locations), a number of the railroad historical groups have developed into high quality, secure archives that attract material on “their” railroad as they become known to railfans/historians/libraries and museums. With more than $1M invested in collections and a permanent archives building, I’ll suggest SRHA is one of those groups. (The L&NHS is in the process of moving their collections into the TVRM/SRHA building in Chattanooga now. All three groups believe that kind of participation is the answer for collections for the long term. TVRM has recently acquired a 10,000 sq. ft. building that will become an indoor museum across the street from the archives and adjacent to museum operations at Grand Junction.)

SRHA archives work sessions are the third weekend (Fri and Sat) of every month. Everyone is invited to visit, do research on the Southern, Central or Georgia or help with various projects. (archives@...)

Ike




Re: Preserving Historical Media

Ray Breyer
 

I have jpegs scanned in 1998 and PDFs scanned in 1995 that all work just fine.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Wednesday, September 8, 2021, 08:45:24 AM CDT, Edward <edb8381@...> wrote:


One of the gravest issues with digital media is that the software for retrieving and viewing becomes outdated and new operating platforms do not support older programming. It takes much effort to continually bring old files up to date for current operating compatibility. 
Ed Bommer


Re: Preserving Historical Media

Edward
 

One of the gravest issues with digital media is that the software for retrieving and viewing becomes outdated and new operating platforms do not support older programming. It takes much effort to continually bring old files up to date for current operating compatibility. 
Ed Bommer


Preserving Historical Media

Jerry Michels
 

I firmly support what Tim and Dick have posted.  For over 30 years I have cajoled people with Missouri Pacific information (slides, prints, egativers, paper items, etc.) to get them 'out of the closet' and share them with the rest of the world.  I wish the idea that hoarding historical information of little monetary value is not the way to help future generations in their search for information would take hold.  In fact, I think risking loss of important information to unknowing heirs is irresponsible.  I have known too many hoarders who for some reason think their inaccessible information is either going to make them rich (it won't) or they attain some level of prestige by keeping information in the basement and being able to declare that they have it but won't share. 

I agree with Tim that paper is probably the most durable way to retain information, but that is only because we are not experienced enough in digital storage to really make a call.  In the case of paper information, I lean toward scanning and saving to several sources.  My own material is on a thumb drive, on my main computer, stored on an NAS drive, and backed up at a commercial site (actually in the UK). Yea, I know it is geeky, but the data is not going to be lost. 

I am also for giving/donating as much media to well-curated archives, such as the Missouri Pacific Historical Society's archive in St. Louis. I have been sending them digital copies and originals for a long time.  There really is a good feeling associated with knowing that the material I have come across over time is preserved, and I can access it if I need it with very little trouble.  It is also shareable with up and coming railroad enthusiasts. 

It is worth some serious consideration.

Jerry Michels


Re: Wa Sunshine Kits...

Dick Harley
 


I'd say if Jack has a digital photo collection that he intends to go to the CSRM Library, why not donate it NOW?
Then the rest of the world can have access and use it.  Or maybe see something that gets them interested in trains or even the YVRR.

Hoarding this stuff in our closets is silly.  And yes, sometimes it all gets thrown away by our heirs.
I have put much of my drawing collection and personal photos on my SmugMug site.  Still a lot more to go, but I do work on it.
https://harley-trains.smugmug.com/

Cheers,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach,  CA


Re: Wa Sunshine Kits...

Tim O'Connor
 


I think wide sharing is really is the best guarantee of -digital- preservation, at least for a generation.
After I'd scanned a few thousand slides, I shared a large number of them via Dropbox. As for thousands
of physical slides, I'm not really sure what to do with them, or with my library of books. It would be a
shame for them to end up in a dumpster.

CD's and other electronic storage is NOT archival - They do degrade over time. Paper has proven to
be the most durable form of preservation, if it's well cared for - and that would include prints. Negatives
and slides (depending on film type) can last a long time, although we don't really know how long that is,
since it has existed for just over 100 years. So much information now exists only in electronic form -
and it requires non-stop money and electricity to preserve it. It worries me. :-\

And don't get me started on cryptocurrency. It's secure - until the electricity and components that keep
it alive just -poof- disappear someday in the future. Just maintaining it already uses more electricity than
dozens of countries use. It is NOT climate friendly.

My entire digital train photos collection is 30 GB now - so I can fit it onto a USB thumb drive. I have
shared (and people have shared with me) thumb drives of photos, so that's a good way to get duplicates
out there in the 'cloud' of enthusiasts.

Tim O'Connor


On 9/7/2021 1:59 PM, Robert G P wrote:
I like your thinking jack!

On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 2:06 PM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Jack

Turn them into a massive NFT (non-fungible token). Everybody's doing it ! And then sell it for millions ! :-)

If it's in The Cloud, then it's safe. Or so we are led to believe. :-D

Tim O'Connor


On 9/5/2021 7:38 PM, Jack Burgess wrote:

I have about 3,800 historic photos of my prototype, the Yosemite Valley Railroad. There are actual photo prints of probably 25% of them. The rest are all high resolution scans.

 

Our Trust specifies that all of those photos (plus the scans of all of them) plus research documents, YV documents, etc. be donated to the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento. What if there is a house fire? There is a set of CDs of the photos in a fireproof safe. What if there is a massive earthquake and our entire town disappears? Other YV fans across the US (and in the Netherlands) have scans of every photo.

 

Just planning ahead…

 

Jack Burgess



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Wa Sunshine Kits...

Robert G P
 

I like your thinking jack!


On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 2:06 PM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Jack

Turn them into a massive NFT (non-fungible token). Everybody's doing it ! And then sell it for millions ! :-)

If it's in The Cloud, then it's safe. Or so we are led to believe. :-D

Tim O'Connor


On 9/5/2021 7:38 PM, Jack Burgess wrote:

I have about 3,800 historic photos of my prototype, the Yosemite Valley Railroad. There are actual photo prints of probably 25% of them. The rest are all high resolution scans.

 

Our Trust specifies that all of those photos (plus the scans of all of them) plus research documents, YV documents, etc. be donated to the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento. What if there is a house fire? There is a set of CDs of the photos in a fireproof safe. What if there is a massive earthquake and our entire town disappears? Other YV fans across the US (and in the Netherlands) have scans of every photo.

 

Just planning ahead…

 

Jack Burgess


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

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