Date   

Re: McKR/Union mill gon

mopacfirst
 

Thanks.  Never thought to look at F&C website.  And the Kinkaid collection is slowly starting to show up in my brain as another place on the web that I should probably check first.

You're right about the kit.  

Ron Merrick


Re: Prototype discoveries

Chuck Soule
 

The Northern Pacific built 200 4-wheel cabooses between 1905 and 1907.  They had a 12-ft wheelbase, were 19 feet over the end sills (body length) and 24 feet 2 inches over the coupler pockets.  There is a VERY brief write-up  and an equipment diagram in the NPRHA Mainstreeter V6 No4, Fall of 1987.  It states that they were "banned by legislation soon after they were built" with no specific reference provided for the legislation at issue.  They were all rebuilt into slightly longer  8-wheel cabooses in about 1910.  They were in service for such a short time that virtually no photos of them are known to exist.

Chuck Soule


Re: Prototype Discoveries

Charlie Duckworth
 

Paul
When I was researching my Missouri-Illinois RR book I found that the MR&BT’s bobber cabooses were ‘grandfathered’ under the Missouri RR Commission laws.  Meaning the four wheeled cabooses were outlawed (ie., no future construction or purchases) but those already in service could continue to be used.   As they were retired many were reused by the mining companies served by the railroad as guard shacks.  You asked about interchange and as a ‘general rule’ cabooses weren’t interchanged during the steam era. 
--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


Re: McKR/Union mill gon

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Let me add that there are a couple of nice prototype pictures among the Jim Kinkaid collection at IRM Pullman Library

 

Railroad-U-Z - Pullman-Library (smugmug.com)

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2021 11:15 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] McKR/Union mill gon

 

I built one of these F&C kits. Build notes and photos were posted to my blog in 2013. 

 

F&C promoted this kit as an intro for first time builders. I had built several resin kits by this time and found the instructions lacking even for an experienced modeler. 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN


On Sep 12, 2021, at 10:12 AM, mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...> wrote:

I'm building an F&C mill gon, specifically the one with McKeesport Connecting decals, although the kit instructions note that Union and other US Steel roads had identical cars.

The brake gear arrangement seems unusual, in that the reservoir and triple valve are near the A end of the car, and the brake cylinder itself is closer to the A end than the B end, which means that the brake rod from the handbrake to the cylinder is unusually long.  Do I get this right?  The brake levers seem to be in the first bay on the A end side from the car's center, based on the drawing and the molded angle brackets on the side of the centersill.  I think I can just attach the outer ends of the brake levers to the centersill exterior.  The kit's instruction sheet photos don't show much underbody, but the retainer release rod is visible in a couple of photos which I think confirms the location of the triple valve.  This layout is unusual enough that I at first thought the prototype underframe drawing (which has been touched up slightly) was the view from above, but now I realize it's an underneath view, looking up.

These are 70 ton cars, but I'm not seeing any particular HO 70 ton truck jump out at me as the closest.

Comments?

Ron Merrick
having an on-line steel fabricator to receive long products


Re: McKR/Union mill gon

Steve and Barb Hile
 

There is a model underbody view on their webpage at

 

8140.html (fandckits.com)

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of mopacfirst
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2021 10:12 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] McKR/Union mill gon

 

I'm building an F&C mill gon, specifically the one with McKeesport Connecting decals, although the kit instructions note that Union and other US Steel roads had identical cars.

The brake gear arrangement seems unusual, in that the reservoir and triple valve are near the A end of the car, and the brake cylinder itself is closer to the A end than the B end, which means that the brake rod from the handbrake to the cylinder is unusually long.  Do I get this right?  The brake levers seem to be in the first bay on the A end side from the car's center, based on the drawing and the molded angle brackets on the side of the centersill.  I think I can just attach the outer ends of the brake levers to the centersill exterior.  The kit's instruction sheet photos don't show much underbody, but the retainer release rod is visible in a couple of photos which I think confirms the location of the triple valve.  This layout is unusual enough that I at first thought the prototype underframe drawing (which has been touched up slightly) was the view from above, but now I realize it's an underneath view, looking up.

These are 70 ton cars, but I'm not seeing any particular HO 70 ton truck jump out at me as the closest.

Comments?

Ron Merrick
having an on-line steel fabricator to receive long products


Re: McKR/Union mill gon

Eric Hansmann
 

I built one of these F&C kits. Build notes and photos were posted to my blog in 2013. 

F&C promoted this kit as an intro for first time builders. I had built several resin kits by this time and found the instructions lacking even for an experienced modeler. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Sep 12, 2021, at 10:12 AM, mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...> wrote:

I'm building an F&C mill gon, specifically the one with McKeesport Connecting decals, although the kit instructions note that Union and other US Steel roads had identical cars.

The brake gear arrangement seems unusual, in that the reservoir and triple valve are near the A end of the car, and the brake cylinder itself is closer to the A end than the B end, which means that the brake rod from the handbrake to the cylinder is unusually long.  Do I get this right?  The brake levers seem to be in the first bay on the A end side from the car's center, based on the drawing and the molded angle brackets on the side of the centersill.  I think I can just attach the outer ends of the brake levers to the centersill exterior.  The kit's instruction sheet photos don't show much underbody, but the retainer release rod is visible in a couple of photos which I think confirms the location of the triple valve.  This layout is unusual enough that I at first thought the prototype underframe drawing (which has been touched up slightly) was the view from above, but now I realize it's an underneath view, looking up.

These are 70 ton cars, but I'm not seeing any particular HO 70 ton truck jump out at me as the closest.

Comments?

Ron Merrick
having an on-line steel fabricator to receive long products


Prototype Discoveries

Paul Catapano
 

Where four wheeled Bobbers “outlawed”, outlawed from interchange, or was there a series of different laws and regulations beginning and ending at political boundaries?


Paul Catapano
Winchester, VA.


McKR/Union mill gon

mopacfirst
 

I'm building an F&C mill gon, specifically the one with McKeesport Connecting decals, although the kit instructions note that Union and other US Steel roads had identical cars.

The brake gear arrangement seems unusual, in that the reservoir and triple valve are near the A end of the car, and the brake cylinder itself is closer to the A end than the B end, which means that the brake rod from the handbrake to the cylinder is unusually long.  Do I get this right?  The brake levers seem to be in the first bay on the A end side from the car's center, based on the drawing and the molded angle brackets on the side of the centersill.  I think I can just attach the outer ends of the brake levers to the centersill exterior.  The kit's instruction sheet photos don't show much underbody, but the retainer release rod is visible in a couple of photos which I think confirms the location of the triple valve.  This layout is unusual enough that I at first thought the prototype underframe drawing (which has been touched up slightly) was the view from above, but now I realize it's an underneath view, looking up.

These are 70 ton cars, but I'm not seeing any particular HO 70 ton truck jump out at me as the closest.

Comments?

Ron Merrick
having an on-line steel fabricator to receive long products


Re: Looking for instructions for Sunshine kit

Tim O'Connor
 

Chuck

what class are they? Ft-??

Tim O'Connor

On 9/11/2021 6:28 PM, Chuck Cover wrote:
Hi group,

I am looking for the instruction sheet for Sunshine Kit #66.3, ATSF Ft L&N 48'6" flat car with bulkheads.  I am hoping that the instructions have a photo of the B end and brake appliances.  Thanks in advance.

Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM
_._,_._,_


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Caboose laws was Prototype discoveries

Bruce Smith
 

Steve,

There is an extensive discussion of the processes involved, but by and large, it was by state legislation, usually with respect to labor law. There is a discussion of the process of creating these laws in many states in the new PRRT&HS Cabin Car book, by Bob Johnson. As seems typical, there was definitely a lack of uniformity. Some laws specified length, some the number of wheels, most steel underframes, etc... Some allowed the continued use of bobber cabooses for local/yard work. There was some negotiation between the unions, the railroads, and the states. The Pa bill was enacted in 1913. You are correct that the proliferation of eith wheel cabooses coincided with these laws. 

On the PRR, they had just finished building the ND series cabins, which were bobbers with steel underframes. In Virginia, the laws required two four-wheel trucks, but had no lenght requirement, so the PRR added trucks to the ND to make class NDA, which not at all surprisingly, were assigned to the Delmarva (and especially Va) area. The first new all steel N5 was built in 1914, to comply with the laws in all of the states served by the PRR. 

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Steve Summers via groups.io <summers1218@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 9:07 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Prototype discoveries
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
Do you have a date that the four wheel cabooses were outlawed?  With others freight cars there was a date when cars weren’t accepted in interchange, for instance K brakes, but since cabooses weren’t generally interchanged, the regulations would have been different.  

As many older railroads had four wheel cabooses in the past, it would be of interest to have dates that they were no longer allowed.  Guessing the proposed outlaw date rules corresponded with a rash of then-new caboose builds.


Re: SAL B-7 & AF-1

Brian Shumaker
 

I’d start with the Fine N Scale PRR X31 and scab on some ends

Brian


Re: Prototype discoveries

Steve Summers
 

Do you have a date that the four wheel cabooses were outlawed?  With others freight cars there was a date when cars weren’t accepted in interchange, for instance K brakes, but since cabooses weren’t generally interchanged, the regulations would have been different.  

As many older railroads had four wheel cabooses in the past, it would be of interest to have dates that they were no longer allowed.  Guessing the proposed outlaw date rules corresponded with a rash of then-new caboose builds.


On Sep 11, 2021, at 1:50 PM, Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...> wrote:



I think it has been mentioned here that the State authorities regulating railroads outlawed four wheel “bobbers” and specified other aspects (underframes, accommodations) of cabooses (waycars, cabins, etc.).

While they likely brought forth the drafts of the bills that the states made into laws or regulations, the driving force behind such actions were the unions. 

Many railroads had four wheel cars as they provided features suited for short runs not requiring space for large crews needing overnight sleeping and eating quarters.  The rough riding characteristics of the cars likely varied widely between railroads.  

The Burlington in post 1900 times had two classes of such cars (one c.1875 photo suggests they had earlier classes but no other documentation exists) of which the only surviving member is a 15 foot NM-1 which is in remarkably good condition sans its proper running gear.   The other class NM-2, made famous by a J. Harold Geisel drawing and Hank Balinski article in Model Railroader magazine for an O Scale model of the car (and uncounted numbers of pencil sharpeners and key fobs sold in railroad museum gift shops) unfortunately has no surviving members.  Hank (who is unfortunately no longer with us) built a 3” scale model of an NM-2 that is exquisite along with his other turn of the century freight cars and CB&Q Class A 4-4-0.

In the NM-2 class  the Burlington master mechanics took considerable effort to design a soft-riding comfortable car within its 20 foot confines and included steel underframes and the same appliances being applied at the time to the standard eight wheel 30 foot waycars.  It was covered in the trade journals at the time it was built.  Unfortunately, the laws cut short their service lives and the last two examples spent time on the Galesburg Great Eastern and the Davenport, Rock Island and North Western Railway short lines.

One of the first plastic HO caboose models which may even predate the Athearn ATSF car is the Mantua/Tyco Reading four wheeler which is one of the handsomest examples of the prototype genre.  Itself was a homage to the Mantua brass kit of the same prototype which dates back to the 1940s.  Bachmann makes a bobber model in HO and N and Arnold Rapido made one in N but I won’t attempt to guess what prototypes they were supposed to be.

Charlie Vlk


Re: Prototype discoveries

np328
 

      Reference further above may be to past posts 72758, 72759, and 72775 concerning bobbers.                                                            James Dick - Roseville, MN 


Looking for instructions for Sunshine kit

Chuck Cover
 

Hi group,

I am looking for the instruction sheet for Sunshine Kit #66.3, ATSF Ft L&N 48'6" flat car with bulkheads.  I am hoping that the instructions have a photo of the B end and brake appliances.  Thanks in advance.

Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM


Re: Prototype discoveries

Charlie Vlk
 

I think it has been mentioned here that the State authorities regulating railroads outlawed four wheel “bobbers” and specified other aspects (underframes, accommodations) of cabooses (waycars, cabins, etc.).

While they likely brought forth the drafts of the bills that the states made into laws or regulations, the driving force behind such actions were the unions. 

Many railroads had four wheel cars as they provided features suited for short runs not requiring space for large crews needing overnight sleeping and eating quarters.  The rough riding characteristics of the cars likely varied widely between railroads.  

The Burlington in post 1900 times had two classes of such cars (one c.1875 photo suggests they had earlier classes but no other documentation exists) of which the only surviving member is a 15 foot NM-1 which is in remarkably good condition sans its proper running gear.   The other class NM-2, made famous by a J. Harold Geisel drawing and Hank Balinski article in Model Railroader magazine for an O Scale model of the car (and uncounted numbers of pencil sharpeners and key fobs sold in railroad museum gift shops) unfortunately has no surviving members.  Hank (who is unfortunately no longer with us) built a 3” scale model of an NM-2 that is exquisite along with his other turn of the century freight cars and CB&Q Class A 4-4-0.

In the NM-2 class  the Burlington master mechanics took considerable effort to design a soft-riding comfortable car within its 20 foot confines and included steel underframes and the same appliances being applied at the time to the standard eight wheel 30 foot waycars.  It was covered in the trade journals at the time it was built.  Unfortunately, the laws cut short their service lives and the last two examples spent time on the Galesburg Great Eastern and the Davenport, Rock Island and North Western Railway short lines.

One of the first plastic HO caboose models which may even predate the Athearn ATSF car is the Mantua/Tyco Reading four wheeler which is one of the handsomest examples of the prototype genre.  Itself was a homage to the Mantua brass kit of the same prototype which dates back to the 1940s.  Bachmann makes a bobber model in HO and N and Arnold Rapido made one in N but I won’t attempt to guess what prototypes they were supposed to be.

Charlie Vlk


Re: NP Banana Specials from Seattle to the Canadian Interior

Kemal Mumcu
 

Perhaps this video is a banana train. Lots of reefers. Colin Meikle

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nJuGMbK_nvk


SAL B-7 & AF-1

rwilson1056
 

trying to create in N scale,. looks like I could take an Atlas '32 and put a PRR round roof on it and if I could find the PS carbuilder ends (didn't somebody create them for the Collinsville meet?)
any suggestions?


Re: RC Double Staggered Door 40' Box Car Redux

O Fenton Wells
 

Go Ken Go, I've found that on the resin cars I missed or just were not willing to pay the asking price that I can come pretty close to having a close copy by BASHING.  And I can credit all that to Greg Martin and the Cocoa Beach Shake'N Take program that he and Schuyler Larrabee conducted.with.  Way to go guys, many thanks
Fenton

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 7:06 PM Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...> wrote:
It was $5.00 on the used shelf at my LHS and I have a weakness for 40' DD box cars. This one is lettered for D&RGW 65192 Model RC-8513-c. It was minimally partially built. 

There was a long trail of messages about 15 years old about this which generally indicated it is a foobie with the 10'0 IH  and 4+5 ends. If it had been 10'4" or 10'6" it might have had a real counterpart. 

I am not averse to a little effort in decals and detail bashing to into a closer replica of a real 1937 AAR 40' DD box car that will fit in the auto-parts traffic moving empty or load through my Port Costa scene in the 1950-54 period. 
 
This is the RC car and the YMW model still untouched in the TBB pile waiting for me to get up the nerve to tackle a $75 kit.  
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


RC Double Staggered Door 40' Box Car Redux

Ken Adams
 

It was $5.00 on the used shelf at my LHS and I have a weakness for 40' DD box cars. This one is lettered for D&RGW 65192 Model RC-8513-c. It was minimally partially built. 

There was a long trail of messages about 15 years old about this which generally indicated it is a foobie with the 10'0 IH  and 4+5 ends. If it had been 10'4" or 10'6" it might have had a real counterpart. 

I am not averse to a little effort in decals and detail bashing to into a closer replica of a real 1937 AAR 40' DD box car that will fit in the auto-parts traffic moving empty or load through my Port Costa scene in the 1950-54 period. 
 
This is the RC car and the YMW model still untouched in the TBB pile waiting for me to get up the nerve to tackle a $75 kit.  
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: Prototype discoveries

 

Wish the site had photos…

So apparently, the Dallas museum got both cabooses, then repatriated one of them. The other went with the rest of the collection to Frisco?

Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Sep 10, 2021, at 4:40 PM, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:



Thanks for the extra details, Mike! Steve Sandifer has shared the location of the other BR&P four-wheel caboose. It’s listed on this roster for the  Museum of the American Railroad in Frisco, TX.

https://www.historictrains.org/collection/equipment-roster

 

When did the New York State Assembly 'outlaw' these cars? Was it because of length? Wood center sills? Or by the number of axles? The Ohio law is pretty nebulous.

 

The BR&P four-wheel cabooses became the I-8 class after the B&O purchase. Robert Hubler’s “Cabooses of the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad” notes 23 four-wheel cabooses remaining when the B&O bought the line. Only BR&P #107 received a B&O number (C-1765) with all others retired before renumbering. C-1765 was retired in August 1937.

 

I’ve visited the Shawmut caboose at the Angelica Fairgrounds, but it’s been a decade or more. Same with the B&S caboose at the B&O Railroad Museum. There’s also the former Elk River Coal & Lumber caboose on the Cass Scenic Railroad. There is speculation this was originally a Coal & Coke Railway caboose. I’m most surprised so many standard gauge, four-wheel cabooses have escaped scrapping.

As for the spelling of Pittsburgh, Penna., that depended upon the era for the city. For some railroads, it depended upon when they were incorporated. Like the Pittsburg Shawmut & Northern, the Western Maryland predecessor, West Virginia Central and Pittsburg Railway, was also incorporated when the City did not have an H.

Thankfully, there were very few railroads with Allegheny/Alleghany in their incorporated name.

 

Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schleigh Mike via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 6:58 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; proto-layouts@groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Prototype discoveries

 

Nice, Eric----

 

That you caught up with these two survivors of a long passed time.  There is a little more to say about each car.  Perhaps it is a sister or the same car but there is reportedly a 4-wheel BR&P caboose down at or near Dallas, 

Texas.  It was for years there on the fairgrounds with a lot of other RR equipment but that group was, shall we say, asked to move and the fleet was relocated.  Sorry I have no other details.

 

The Union, later B&LE, SSC boxcar was donated by The Bessemer to Lake Shore Railway Museum at North East, Penna. some years back, I think in the 1970s.  It is on long-term loan to the French Creek group at Meadville and is fittingly displayed there near the site of the one-time B&LE terminal.  Keith Retterer has a builder's photo from that group delivered to the Union.  These boxcars were constructed in nearby Butler.  This would be a neat car to scratch-build but likely there are other kit-bashing options.

 

Back to 4-wheel cabooses on Western New York railroads.....At the Angelica, New York fairgrounds is a survivor from the Pittsburg, Shawmut & Northern RR (Shawmut) and it was actually built there in Angelica.  The railroad sold it to the Western Allegheny when the PS&N decided to go 100% with home designed (and mostly home built) 8-wheel cars.  After the WA gave it up, a hunting cabin was built around it and it soldiered on fairly un-altered (above the frame) and was saved from demolition at the last moment.

 

In Coudersport is the sole caboose of the Coudersport & Port Allegany which is believed to have arrived there in the 'teens' from the then recently liquidated Wellsville & Buffalo, a brief survivor of the Buffalo & Susquehanna Railway.  This car was constructed in Galeton, Penna. nearby, by the Buffalo & Susquehanna Railroad, a corporate relative to the Railway.  The B&S of either brand was a 100% user of 4-wheel cars never obtaining an 8-wheel model.  When the New York State Assembly 'outlawed' these cars, the B&S managed to escape conversion by perhaps three details:  Their milage in the State was low, their trains were short (usually), and their freight trains moved less than 30 mph.  Surely they already practiced caution when switching and placing these cars on their trains.  In the 1920s the B&S RR Corp. rebuilt nine cars with a steel center-sill and these cars no doubt served the trains operating into New York.  The larger Penna. portion of the RR could still use the un-modified wood frame/body cars.  When the B&O began operating the B&S (and BR&P) on the first day of 1932, the nine steel center-sill cabooses (road numbers 1-9) became B&O I-11 class (road numbers C1773-C1781).  The larger group of un-modified cars (B&O class I-12 ---first) remained in Penna. but were quickly retired in the following two years.  The I-11cars continued to serve into the 1950s and one, the C1775, is preserved at the B&O Baltimore Museum.  This car has a slight quirk in that the cupola appears to be a replacement with a more graceful arc than photos suggest on other cars.  Is it not wonderful that so many of these four-wheel cars are preserved?

 

On an unrelated point but one unmercifully driven a few months back is obvious above:  There are/were two legitimate ways to spell Pittsburg/Pittsburgh, Penna. AND even more ways to spell Allegheny/Allegany.  I know, Eric, you know this but our many brethren in the freight car realm might find this confusing however, it does apply to several railroads that hauled freight cars.

 

Regards from Grove City, also in Penna.----Mike Schleigh

 

On Thursday, September 9, 2021, 07:58:58 AM EDT, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:

 

 

While on a recent trip visiting family, I stumbled across a couple very interesting rail cars that were built more than 110 years ago. These are featured in the latest DesignBuildOp blog post.

 

 

Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

 

5621 - 5640 of 192665