Date   

Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] Manure shipped by rail

Bruce Smith
 

Bob,

I don't think that would be realistic. First, manure needs to be composted before it can be used in gardens. It is too "hot" and full of hay seeds. That's fine to spread on the fields, but a disaster to spread on a garden. Second, that's a lot of manure! Third, a local operation would get manure locally. The dairy farm up the street or the local livery stable (if such still existed in your time frame). One of the only operations that I know of that actively shipped manure was from the horse farms and race tracks of the middle Atlantic region to the mushroom farms in Kennet Square PA. That was (and remains) a high volume business, with large composting operations, and many mushroom houses concentrated locally. 

The gondolas used for manure were pretty much embargoed from other uses and thus the PRR used old composite GR and GRA class cars. When the manure/hay mix spontaneously combusted, as it was want to do, especially in the summer months, local fire departments would be called to a grade crossing to put out the burning car, but they quickly started refusing to come to these calls, resulting ultimately in the embargoing of the load on the railroad.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Robert G P <bobgp5109@...>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 7:11 AM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] Manure shipped by rail
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
Hello group, 

I model the midwest and wanted some extra uses for my gons and hoppers so It was my conjecture that "bulk" manure loads might be an accurate bill for them? 

Lets say the manure is traveling to a feed/seed shop (like heater coal would to a dealer) to be sold in smaller portions to folks with gardens or to larger farming operations. I suppose in the latter case a farmer may have his own hopper(s) full and spotted on a team track for unloading. 

To all those with the knowledge - is any of this realistic? Have you heard of anything like this? Sounds like a good way to add in some extra operations and maybe even have fun making sure the cars aren't too close to the caboose!

-Bob


Manure shipped by rail

Robert G P
 

Hello group, 

I model the midwest and wanted some extra uses for my gons and hoppers so It was my conjecture that "bulk" manure loads might be an accurate bill for them? 

Lets say the manure is traveling to a feed/seed shop (like heater coal would to a dealer) to be sold in smaller portions to folks with gardens or to larger farming operations. I suppose in the latter case a farmer may have his own hopper(s) full and spotted on a team track for unloading. 

To all those with the knowledge - is any of this realistic? Have you heard of anything like this? Sounds like a good way to add in some extra operations and maybe even have fun making sure the cars aren't too close to the caboose!

-Bob


Re: Prototype Discoveries

Tony Thompson
 

Bruce Smith wrote:

Rather, these were state laws, passed by state legislatures and signed into law by state governors and thus they truly OUTLAWED these types of cabins (no "quotes" needed), making their use against the law. As in go to jail or pay really big fines if you don't fix the problem. 

Like many states, California outlawed bobbers early in the 20th century, and SP quickly complied. In the early 1960s, for another example, the state Public Utilities Commission (descendant of the former Railroad Commission) imposed a rule that cabooses had to have retention toilet facilities (and outlawed many minor features common on older cabooses). SP had a lot of older wood cabooses that they were not about to spend the money to equip with toilets, so they largely disappeared quickly — except, again, for one of those exceptions for local train use.

Tony Thompson



Prototype Discoveries

Bruce Smith
 

And I might add that these laws, in some states, exempted some uses of bobber style cabooses, allowing their continued use for locals, and yard jobs. As a consequence, the PRR had class ND bobbers on the roster into the 1960s!

-Bruce


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Smith <smithbf@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2021 5:04 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] Prototype Discoveries
 
Paul,

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my post earlier today, but the outlawing of bobber cabin cars has nothing to do with interchange. Indeed it was not regulated by the authorities that typically regulated interchange, the AAR/ARA.

Rather, these were state laws, passed by state legislatures and signed into law by state governors and thus they truly OUTLAWED these types of cabins (no "quotes" needed), making their use against the law. As in go to jail or pay really big fines if you don't fix the problem. 

The genesis of these laws appears to be lobbying by the brotherhoods for safer working conditions. Regulating interstate commerce is obviously a tricky legal situation, but states took the position, and it was affirmed in the courts, that they had the right to regulate working conditions within their boundaries. The challenge for the railroads was to then have cabin car designs that met all state laws where the affected railroad operated. For the PRR, this was the genesis of their first all-steel cabin, the N5 as well as a massive rebuilding program that converted bobbers into wood cabin car classes N6A and N6B (with steel underframes, trucks, and sufficient length to be legal).

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Paul Catapano <pc66ot@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2021 10:20 AM
To: Steam Era Freight Cars <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] Prototype Discoveries
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

Where four wheeled Bobbers “outlawed”, outlawed from interchange, or was there a series of different laws and regulations beginning and ending at political boundaries?


Paul Catapano
Winchester, VA.






Re: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] Prototype Discoveries

Bruce Smith
 

Paul,

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my post earlier today, but the outlawing of bobber cabin cars has nothing to do with interchange. Indeed it was not regulated by the authorities that typically regulated interchange, the AAR/ARA.

Rather, these were state laws, passed by state legislatures and signed into law by state governors and thus they truly OUTLAWED these types of cabins (no "quotes" needed), making their use against the law. As in go to jail or pay really big fines if you don't fix the problem. 

The genesis of these laws appears to be lobbying by the brotherhoods for safer working conditions. Regulating interstate commerce is obviously a tricky legal situation, but states took the position, and it was affirmed in the courts, that they had the right to regulate working conditions within their boundaries. The challenge for the railroads was to then have cabin car designs that met all state laws where the affected railroad operated. For the PRR, this was the genesis of their first all-steel cabin, the N5 as well as a massive rebuilding program that converted bobbers into wood cabin car classes N6A and N6B (with steel underframes, trucks, and sufficient length to be legal).

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Paul Catapano <pc66ot@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2021 10:20 AM
To: Steam Era Freight Cars <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] Prototype Discoveries
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

Where four wheeled Bobbers “outlawed”, outlawed from interchange, or was there a series of different laws and regulations beginning and ending at political boundaries?


Paul Catapano
Winchester, VA.






Re: McKR/Union mill gon

mopacfirst
 

Thanks.  Never thought to look at F&C website.  And the Kinkaid collection is slowly starting to show up in my brain as another place on the web that I should probably check first.

You're right about the kit.  

Ron Merrick


Re: Prototype discoveries

Chuck Soule
 

The Northern Pacific built 200 4-wheel cabooses between 1905 and 1907.  They had a 12-ft wheelbase, were 19 feet over the end sills (body length) and 24 feet 2 inches over the coupler pockets.  There is a VERY brief write-up  and an equipment diagram in the NPRHA Mainstreeter V6 No4, Fall of 1987.  It states that they were "banned by legislation soon after they were built" with no specific reference provided for the legislation at issue.  They were all rebuilt into slightly longer  8-wheel cabooses in about 1910.  They were in service for such a short time that virtually no photos of them are known to exist.

Chuck Soule


Re: Prototype Discoveries

Charlie Duckworth
 

Paul
When I was researching my Missouri-Illinois RR book I found that the MR&BT’s bobber cabooses were ‘grandfathered’ under the Missouri RR Commission laws.  Meaning the four wheeled cabooses were outlawed (ie., no future construction or purchases) but those already in service could continue to be used.   As they were retired many were reused by the mining companies served by the railroad as guard shacks.  You asked about interchange and as a ‘general rule’ cabooses weren’t interchanged during the steam era. 
--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


Re: McKR/Union mill gon

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Let me add that there are a couple of nice prototype pictures among the Jim Kinkaid collection at IRM Pullman Library

 

Railroad-U-Z - Pullman-Library (smugmug.com)

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2021 11:15 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] McKR/Union mill gon

 

I built one of these F&C kits. Build notes and photos were posted to my blog in 2013. 

 

F&C promoted this kit as an intro for first time builders. I had built several resin kits by this time and found the instructions lacking even for an experienced modeler. 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN


On Sep 12, 2021, at 10:12 AM, mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...> wrote:

I'm building an F&C mill gon, specifically the one with McKeesport Connecting decals, although the kit instructions note that Union and other US Steel roads had identical cars.

The brake gear arrangement seems unusual, in that the reservoir and triple valve are near the A end of the car, and the brake cylinder itself is closer to the A end than the B end, which means that the brake rod from the handbrake to the cylinder is unusually long.  Do I get this right?  The brake levers seem to be in the first bay on the A end side from the car's center, based on the drawing and the molded angle brackets on the side of the centersill.  I think I can just attach the outer ends of the brake levers to the centersill exterior.  The kit's instruction sheet photos don't show much underbody, but the retainer release rod is visible in a couple of photos which I think confirms the location of the triple valve.  This layout is unusual enough that I at first thought the prototype underframe drawing (which has been touched up slightly) was the view from above, but now I realize it's an underneath view, looking up.

These are 70 ton cars, but I'm not seeing any particular HO 70 ton truck jump out at me as the closest.

Comments?

Ron Merrick
having an on-line steel fabricator to receive long products


Re: McKR/Union mill gon

Steve and Barb Hile
 

There is a model underbody view on their webpage at

 

8140.html (fandckits.com)

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of mopacfirst
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2021 10:12 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] McKR/Union mill gon

 

I'm building an F&C mill gon, specifically the one with McKeesport Connecting decals, although the kit instructions note that Union and other US Steel roads had identical cars.

The brake gear arrangement seems unusual, in that the reservoir and triple valve are near the A end of the car, and the brake cylinder itself is closer to the A end than the B end, which means that the brake rod from the handbrake to the cylinder is unusually long.  Do I get this right?  The brake levers seem to be in the first bay on the A end side from the car's center, based on the drawing and the molded angle brackets on the side of the centersill.  I think I can just attach the outer ends of the brake levers to the centersill exterior.  The kit's instruction sheet photos don't show much underbody, but the retainer release rod is visible in a couple of photos which I think confirms the location of the triple valve.  This layout is unusual enough that I at first thought the prototype underframe drawing (which has been touched up slightly) was the view from above, but now I realize it's an underneath view, looking up.

These are 70 ton cars, but I'm not seeing any particular HO 70 ton truck jump out at me as the closest.

Comments?

Ron Merrick
having an on-line steel fabricator to receive long products


Re: McKR/Union mill gon

Eric Hansmann
 

I built one of these F&C kits. Build notes and photos were posted to my blog in 2013. 

F&C promoted this kit as an intro for first time builders. I had built several resin kits by this time and found the instructions lacking even for an experienced modeler. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Sep 12, 2021, at 10:12 AM, mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...> wrote:

I'm building an F&C mill gon, specifically the one with McKeesport Connecting decals, although the kit instructions note that Union and other US Steel roads had identical cars.

The brake gear arrangement seems unusual, in that the reservoir and triple valve are near the A end of the car, and the brake cylinder itself is closer to the A end than the B end, which means that the brake rod from the handbrake to the cylinder is unusually long.  Do I get this right?  The brake levers seem to be in the first bay on the A end side from the car's center, based on the drawing and the molded angle brackets on the side of the centersill.  I think I can just attach the outer ends of the brake levers to the centersill exterior.  The kit's instruction sheet photos don't show much underbody, but the retainer release rod is visible in a couple of photos which I think confirms the location of the triple valve.  This layout is unusual enough that I at first thought the prototype underframe drawing (which has been touched up slightly) was the view from above, but now I realize it's an underneath view, looking up.

These are 70 ton cars, but I'm not seeing any particular HO 70 ton truck jump out at me as the closest.

Comments?

Ron Merrick
having an on-line steel fabricator to receive long products


Prototype Discoveries

Paul Catapano
 

Where four wheeled Bobbers “outlawed”, outlawed from interchange, or was there a series of different laws and regulations beginning and ending at political boundaries?


Paul Catapano
Winchester, VA.


McKR/Union mill gon

mopacfirst
 

I'm building an F&C mill gon, specifically the one with McKeesport Connecting decals, although the kit instructions note that Union and other US Steel roads had identical cars.

The brake gear arrangement seems unusual, in that the reservoir and triple valve are near the A end of the car, and the brake cylinder itself is closer to the A end than the B end, which means that the brake rod from the handbrake to the cylinder is unusually long.  Do I get this right?  The brake levers seem to be in the first bay on the A end side from the car's center, based on the drawing and the molded angle brackets on the side of the centersill.  I think I can just attach the outer ends of the brake levers to the centersill exterior.  The kit's instruction sheet photos don't show much underbody, but the retainer release rod is visible in a couple of photos which I think confirms the location of the triple valve.  This layout is unusual enough that I at first thought the prototype underframe drawing (which has been touched up slightly) was the view from above, but now I realize it's an underneath view, looking up.

These are 70 ton cars, but I'm not seeing any particular HO 70 ton truck jump out at me as the closest.

Comments?

Ron Merrick
having an on-line steel fabricator to receive long products


Re: Looking for instructions for Sunshine kit

Tim O'Connor
 

Chuck

what class are they? Ft-??

Tim O'Connor

On 9/11/2021 6:28 PM, Chuck Cover wrote:
Hi group,

I am looking for the instruction sheet for Sunshine Kit #66.3, ATSF Ft L&N 48'6" flat car with bulkheads.  I am hoping that the instructions have a photo of the B end and brake appliances.  Thanks in advance.

Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM
_._,_._,_


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Caboose laws was Prototype discoveries

Bruce Smith
 

Steve,

There is an extensive discussion of the processes involved, but by and large, it was by state legislation, usually with respect to labor law. There is a discussion of the process of creating these laws in many states in the new PRRT&HS Cabin Car book, by Bob Johnson. As seems typical, there was definitely a lack of uniformity. Some laws specified length, some the number of wheels, most steel underframes, etc... Some allowed the continued use of bobber cabooses for local/yard work. There was some negotiation between the unions, the railroads, and the states. The Pa bill was enacted in 1913. You are correct that the proliferation of eith wheel cabooses coincided with these laws. 

On the PRR, they had just finished building the ND series cabins, which were bobbers with steel underframes. In Virginia, the laws required two four-wheel trucks, but had no lenght requirement, so the PRR added trucks to the ND to make class NDA, which not at all surprisingly, were assigned to the Delmarva (and especially Va) area. The first new all steel N5 was built in 1914, to comply with the laws in all of the states served by the PRR. 

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Steve Summers via groups.io <summers1218@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 9:07 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Prototype discoveries
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
Do you have a date that the four wheel cabooses were outlawed?  With others freight cars there was a date when cars weren’t accepted in interchange, for instance K brakes, but since cabooses weren’t generally interchanged, the regulations would have been different.  

As many older railroads had four wheel cabooses in the past, it would be of interest to have dates that they were no longer allowed.  Guessing the proposed outlaw date rules corresponded with a rash of then-new caboose builds.


Re: SAL B-7 & AF-1

Brian Shumaker
 

I’d start with the Fine N Scale PRR X31 and scab on some ends

Brian


Re: Prototype discoveries

Steve Summers
 

Do you have a date that the four wheel cabooses were outlawed?  With others freight cars there was a date when cars weren’t accepted in interchange, for instance K brakes, but since cabooses weren’t generally interchanged, the regulations would have been different.  

As many older railroads had four wheel cabooses in the past, it would be of interest to have dates that they were no longer allowed.  Guessing the proposed outlaw date rules corresponded with a rash of then-new caboose builds.


On Sep 11, 2021, at 1:50 PM, Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...> wrote:



I think it has been mentioned here that the State authorities regulating railroads outlawed four wheel “bobbers” and specified other aspects (underframes, accommodations) of cabooses (waycars, cabins, etc.).

While they likely brought forth the drafts of the bills that the states made into laws or regulations, the driving force behind such actions were the unions. 

Many railroads had four wheel cars as they provided features suited for short runs not requiring space for large crews needing overnight sleeping and eating quarters.  The rough riding characteristics of the cars likely varied widely between railroads.  

The Burlington in post 1900 times had two classes of such cars (one c.1875 photo suggests they had earlier classes but no other documentation exists) of which the only surviving member is a 15 foot NM-1 which is in remarkably good condition sans its proper running gear.   The other class NM-2, made famous by a J. Harold Geisel drawing and Hank Balinski article in Model Railroader magazine for an O Scale model of the car (and uncounted numbers of pencil sharpeners and key fobs sold in railroad museum gift shops) unfortunately has no surviving members.  Hank (who is unfortunately no longer with us) built a 3” scale model of an NM-2 that is exquisite along with his other turn of the century freight cars and CB&Q Class A 4-4-0.

In the NM-2 class  the Burlington master mechanics took considerable effort to design a soft-riding comfortable car within its 20 foot confines and included steel underframes and the same appliances being applied at the time to the standard eight wheel 30 foot waycars.  It was covered in the trade journals at the time it was built.  Unfortunately, the laws cut short their service lives and the last two examples spent time on the Galesburg Great Eastern and the Davenport, Rock Island and North Western Railway short lines.

One of the first plastic HO caboose models which may even predate the Athearn ATSF car is the Mantua/Tyco Reading four wheeler which is one of the handsomest examples of the prototype genre.  Itself was a homage to the Mantua brass kit of the same prototype which dates back to the 1940s.  Bachmann makes a bobber model in HO and N and Arnold Rapido made one in N but I won’t attempt to guess what prototypes they were supposed to be.

Charlie Vlk


Re: Prototype discoveries

np328
 

      Reference further above may be to past posts 72758, 72759, and 72775 concerning bobbers.                                                            James Dick - Roseville, MN 


Looking for instructions for Sunshine kit

Chuck Cover
 

Hi group,

I am looking for the instruction sheet for Sunshine Kit #66.3, ATSF Ft L&N 48'6" flat car with bulkheads.  I am hoping that the instructions have a photo of the B end and brake appliances.  Thanks in advance.

Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM


Re: Prototype discoveries

Charlie Vlk
 

I think it has been mentioned here that the State authorities regulating railroads outlawed four wheel “bobbers” and specified other aspects (underframes, accommodations) of cabooses (waycars, cabins, etc.).

While they likely brought forth the drafts of the bills that the states made into laws or regulations, the driving force behind such actions were the unions. 

Many railroads had four wheel cars as they provided features suited for short runs not requiring space for large crews needing overnight sleeping and eating quarters.  The rough riding characteristics of the cars likely varied widely between railroads.  

The Burlington in post 1900 times had two classes of such cars (one c.1875 photo suggests they had earlier classes but no other documentation exists) of which the only surviving member is a 15 foot NM-1 which is in remarkably good condition sans its proper running gear.   The other class NM-2, made famous by a J. Harold Geisel drawing and Hank Balinski article in Model Railroader magazine for an O Scale model of the car (and uncounted numbers of pencil sharpeners and key fobs sold in railroad museum gift shops) unfortunately has no surviving members.  Hank (who is unfortunately no longer with us) built a 3” scale model of an NM-2 that is exquisite along with his other turn of the century freight cars and CB&Q Class A 4-4-0.

In the NM-2 class  the Burlington master mechanics took considerable effort to design a soft-riding comfortable car within its 20 foot confines and included steel underframes and the same appliances being applied at the time to the standard eight wheel 30 foot waycars.  It was covered in the trade journals at the time it was built.  Unfortunately, the laws cut short their service lives and the last two examples spent time on the Galesburg Great Eastern and the Davenport, Rock Island and North Western Railway short lines.

One of the first plastic HO caboose models which may even predate the Athearn ATSF car is the Mantua/Tyco Reading four wheeler which is one of the handsomest examples of the prototype genre.  Itself was a homage to the Mantua brass kit of the same prototype which dates back to the 1940s.  Bachmann makes a bobber model in HO and N and Arnold Rapido made one in N but I won’t attempt to guess what prototypes they were supposed to be.

Charlie Vlk

1581 - 1600 of 188631