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Re: Color recommendation for post 1945-1950 painted GN SS single door boxcar
Robert kirkham
It isn’t model paint information, but FYI, there is a nice video of a train wreck showing a GN car in April 1954 at this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdtnVk2M3YU
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Rob
On Sep 14, 2021, at 5:52 AM, Richard Remiarz <rremiarz@...> wrote: Charlie, For mineral red I use Tru-Color TCP-214. During the 1950’s, until October 1, 1956, the entire car including underbody and trucks would be painted mineral red. After October 1 the GN began repainting cars with vermillion red. For vermillion painted cars the trucks and underbody were painted mineral red. Sincerely, Rich Remiarz Vadnais Heights, MN Editor/Coordinator GNRHS Modelers’ Pages From: Charlie Duckworth Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 7:42 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] Color recommendation for post 1945-1950 painted GN SS single door boxcar I’m at the point with my Westerfield 50’ GN SS single door boxcar where I need to paint it. The instructions advise ‘mineral red’ for the time period in which it would have been shopped and painted. Any suggestions from the GN modelers on the list? How was the roof and underframe coated? Tim sent me a shot of a car painted in a oxide color but advised I contact the SMEs.
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Re: Model: SRLX 6310
Dennis Storzek
 From the Carroll Schmitt collection I think everyone is missing my point. The B&W photos of the State of Maine cars establish the problem facing the photographer; Without a filter, both the red and blue stripe will print as almost the same shade of gray. To capture the colorful nature of the car, he must choose a filter. If we can determine which filter he chose, we can use that to decipher the placement of the colors. This web site has a very good visual aid of the effect of different filters on ALL the colors in the composition: https://www.photographymad.com/pages/view/using-coloured-filters-in-black-and-white-photography Page down a bit to the chart. We can see that the filter lightens like colors, but also affects the other colors in a predictable way. If the top stripe was RED, a red filter would lighten it, but would also turn the yellow (or dulux gold) "refrigerator" lettering white. Such is not the case. If the top stripe is Blue, a blue filter would lighten it, but would also turn the "refrigerator" lettering dark, which it did Blue is the only color filter that will turn yellow or gold lettering dark. Therefore, the top stripe is blue. Dennis Storzek
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Re: resin model kits - canopy glue
Tony Thompson
Ray Hutchison wrote:I am sure the notation on the glue bottle refers to the glue in that liquid form. It certainly does not refer to the glue when polymerized and set as an adhesive. I have had some challenging material combinations (etched metal grilles on plastic F-unit locomotives), glued with canopy glue, exposed to freezing temperatures with no problems. Tony Thompson tony@signaturepress.com
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resin model kits - canopy glue
Ray Hutchison
So I was going to start build on a couple of resin kits, thought I would try canopy glue this time, and then someone here (or another list) posted about taking models apart, putting them in the freezer, dropping them, and everything would pop apart. I could have used that information a year ago, when I ruined a model trying to take an end off (the seller either did not mention or more likely did not know that it was resin kit) but... now it brings things to a halt. The bottle of canopy glue does say to protect from freezing. My layout will be in unheated garage space, and it does get cold in Green Bay. So... if it does get to freezing, does the model simply pop apart? At what temperature? And is Gorilla the best alternative if not canopy glue?
I know that I will not be leaving locomotives in the garage space, but the idea of moving several boxes of cars is a but overwhelming. Ray Hutchison Green Bay, WI
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Re: Model: SRLX 6310
Dan Miller
Thanks very much for this photo, Brian. Aside from the question of stripe color, it looks like many of the details of this car differ from the Rapido offering.
Dan Miller
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Re: Color recommendation for post 1945-1950 painted GN SS single door boxcar
Thanks for the clarification. I have shots of 5194 and 5196. 5194 has an X in front of the number so I assume these are probably company service numbers and not revenue cars.
-- Charlie Duckworth Omaha, Ne.
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Re: Manure shipped by rail
Let me add that sometimes gons of manure were just hauled to a remote yard location, ie in the country somewhere, and unloaded into a wet or swampy area. Of course this was all in the days before landfills and EPA.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Douglas Harding via groups.io
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 8:19 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Manure shipped by rail
Gons were used for shipping manure, not aware of hoppers being used in this service. It was also bagged, which could be shipped on a flatcar or in a boxcar. In the Midwest most often it was coming from large stockyards and packing plants. Usually shipped to rural areas where it was sold to farmers for applying to their fields for fertilizer, esp in the days before commercial fertilizer. It was also bagged and shipped for gardens. Attached are a few photos and documents related to shipping manure by rail. Team tracks or a remote siding could be used for unloading. Workers with shovels and pitchforks were the norm. Clamshell buckets on a crane were used at large operations. Loading of gons was similar to coal, wagons and carts dumping from an elevated ramp. Or the clamshell bucket and crane.
Doug Harding
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert G P
Hello group,
I model the midwest and wanted some extra uses for my gons and hoppers so It was my conjecture that "bulk" manure loads might be an accurate bill for them?
Lets say the manure is traveling to a feed/seed shop (like heater coal would to a dealer) to be sold in smaller portions to folks with gardens or to larger farming operations. I suppose in the latter case a farmer may have his own hopper(s) full and spotted on a team track for unloading.
To all those with the knowledge - is any of this realistic? Have you heard of anything like this? Sounds like a good way to add in some extra operations and maybe even have fun making sure the cars aren't too close to the caboose!
-Bob
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Re: Manure shipped by rail
Eric Hansmann
Before motorized vehicles dominated the streets, cities had to clean up the waste left by horses and teams. An August 1912 photo if the Pennsy's Try Street team yard in Pittsburgh, PA, captures a transfer facility. I had long thought it was used to load gondolas from wagons to transfer the animal waste. Here's the photo. Click on the image to use the enhanced functions to zoom in for a look.
This photo is actually part of the documentation for a very large public works project that removed many cubic feet of earth that had been a hump on several city streets. Hence the image title of Hump District. Dirt was loaded into wagons by steam shovel then transported a few blocks to this transfer platform to load into gondolas below.
But we can easily see a loaded WNY&P GS gondola beside the transfer platform. It seems to be topped off with what looks like manure. Another partially loaded gondola is ahead with a wagon adjacent that my have just been emptied by shovel. Cities of that time had many stables that needed to be cleaned out daily. Moving the bulk material out to surrounding farms was easier using rail.
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
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Re: Manure shipped by rail
Ray Breyer
Before 1925 or so horses were the dominant form of "horsepower" in urban areas. Stables were everywhere to house wagon teams. And everyone who was upper middle class or rich had one or more. A horse can easily produce 100 pounds of "soiled bedding" in a day, which means a LOT of manure to remove from an average-sized city. So besides stockyards (most of which were inside major cities) there was a lot of manure to move around. Larger cities, or smaller ones with a disproportionately large number of private buggy horses, usually had manure loading ramps to help the process. While manpower was dead cheap before the 1950s, time was still a finite commodity. If you had a lot of poop to move out of town, you had to have a ram to speed up the process. I've attached a few photos. Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
On Tuesday, September 14, 2021, 08:53:36 AM CDT, ron christensen via groups.io <rxensen@...> wrote:
I have never heard of a farmer selling or giving away manure, but that might have happened. That was a very useful fertilizer for the farmer. Usually the manure is a product of large stock yards or race tracks In the case of Chicago race tracks a lot of manure was shipped on the old PM to mushroom plants in Michigan. The manure was shipped in gondolas and weighed in New buffalo Mi. If the car was too heavy some had to be unloaded. All that went away in the 70s as trucks started hauling the manure Ron Christensen
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Re: Color recommendation for post 1945-1950 painted GN SS single door boxcar
Staffan Ehnbom
Charlie, The Westerfield GN 50' single wood sheath box car is Pratt truss construction correct for the 42000-42899 series, 42900-42999 with full end doors, and 43000-43049. The 43050-43499 had 3/3/3 dreadnought ends. The 29000-29999 and the 38900-38999 were Howe truss side construction. "5100" seems to be an incorrect number. Staffan Ehnbom
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Re: Manure shipped by rail
I have never heard of a farmer selling or giving away manure, but that might have happened. That was a very useful fertilizer for the farmer.
Usually the manure is a product of large stock yards or race tracks In the case of Chicago race tracks a lot of manure was shipped on the old PM to mushroom plants in Michigan. The manure was shipped in gondolas and weighed in New buffalo Mi. If the car was too heavy some had to be unloaded. All that went away in the 70s as trucks started hauling the manure Ron Christensen
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Kit updates
Eric Hansmann
The Resin Car Works minions have been busy. Updates on three kits have posted to the blog.
Eric Hansmann
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Re: Rapido announces HO Scale UTLX 10,000 gallon X-3 tankcar
Andy Laurent
Rapido Trains is excited to announce its newest ready-to-run freight car – the Union Tank Car 10,000 gallon X-3 tank car. Modelers interested in accuracy know that most boxcars are painted red and most tank cars are black. That’s just the way it is – and was. When discussing tank cars from the 1920s through the 1970s, there can be no more important car than the Union Tank Car (UTLX) X-3 design. And yes, they were almost all black! The X-3 cars were built in various capacities and configurations, including 6,500 gallon, 8,000 gallon and 12,000 gallon tanks. They were also built with single, double and triple domes. However, none of these variants were more numerous than the basic 10,000 gallon, single-dome version. From the 1920s onwards Union Tank Car (UTLX) fielded the largest fleet of tank cars in North America, and the 10,000 gallon X-3 accounted for nearly 13,000 of them!
The basic X-3 was used to haul fuel oil, gasoline, vegetable oils – essentially any liquid that did not require special handling features. These cars went EVERYWHERE! Rapido’s model has been developed with the help of noted UTLX tank car expert Steve Hile. We are offering two distinct versions, the K-brake equipped cars, good before 1953, and the AB-brake equipped cars good from the 1940s onwards. In addition to brake equipment, our models will feature correct handbrake and coupler cut bar arrangements which differed depending on the brake equipment installed. Either Andrews or “Bettendorf” cast steel trucks will be fitted, depending on the era. Other features of Rapido’s model include:
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Re: Color recommendation for post 1945-1950 painted GN SS single door boxcar
Richard Remiarz
Charlie,
For mineral red I use Tru-Color TCP-214. During the 1950’s, until October 1, 1956, the entire car including underbody and trucks would be painted mineral red. After October 1 the GN began repainting cars with vermillion red. For vermillion painted cars the trucks and underbody were painted mineral red.
Sincerely, Rich Remiarz Vadnais Heights, MN Editor/Coordinator GNRHS Modelers’ Pages
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Charlie Duckworth
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 7:42 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] Color recommendation for post 1945-1950 painted GN SS single door boxcar
I’m at the point with my Westerfield 50’ GN SS single door boxcar where I need to paint it. The instructions advise ‘mineral red’ for the time period in which it would have been shopped and painted. Any suggestions from the GN modelers on the list? How was the roof and underframe coated? Tim sent me a shot of a car painted in a oxide color but advised I contact the SMEs.
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Re: Model: SRLX 6310
I should have said every COLOR photo I have seen shows red on the bottom in State Of Maine paint. Black and white photos, on the other hand... Tim O'Connor
On 9/13/2021 10:58 PM, Dennis Storzek
wrote:
I'm going to rock the boat a bit more. First, a photo to illustrate the problem, courtesy of the Protocraft web site: --
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Re: Model: SRLX 6310
red is on the BOTTOM in every photo I've seen
On 9/13/2021 10:58 PM, Dennis Storzek
wrote:
I'm going to rock the boat a bit more. First, a photo to illustrate the problem, courtesy of the Protocraft web site: --
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Re: Model: SRLX 6310
There is at least one other photo of a Swift reefer in the Buy More War Bonds scheme. It is in the Hendrickson/Kaminsky Billboard reefer book and shows car 6306 and two other cars. In this view, the lettering in the top band is lighter than the background color. I can’t post the entire photo, but here is a snip to show what I am saying.
There is certainly a difference between the color of the word REFRIGERATOR compared to the dimensional data in the lower band (blue one, probably.)
Steve Hile
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 12:20 PM, Scott wrote:
Wow, what a can of worms. Knowing how some older B&W film rendered colors, my first thought was that the bottom color was red, while the upper color was blue and the lettering yellow. But WWII seems too late for orthochromatic film, and I've seen that film make blue literally disappear, so my next thought was the photographer used a color filter to get better tonal separation between the red and blue since both normally print as mid-tone gray. A red filter would have darkened the blue and lightened the red, but would have turned the yellow lettering white. All I can surmise is the lettering in the red band was not yellow, OR was painted a different color specifically for this photo.
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Re: Model: SRLX 6310
Jack Mullen
On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 07:58 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
And that brought me to the realization that, if the photographer chose a BLUE filter to put visual separation between the colors, the red would go very dark, like the bottom stripe in the prototype photo of the Swift car, while the blue stripe would go lighter, and that same filter would cause yellow or imitation gold to go very dark, again as in that prototype photo.Dennis, I had the same thoughts while I was reading your previous message. Further, the models have the BUY MORE WAR BONDS letting in blue that matches the lower band of color. But to my eye, in the protofoto the lettering matches the upper band. Jack Mullen
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Re: Model: SRLX 6310
Dennis Storzek
I'm going to rock the boat a bit more. First, a photo to illustrate the problem, courtesy of the Protocraft web site:
 Which stripe is red, and which is blue? If you said the top stripe is red, color photos of this famous paint scheme would prove you wrong... Who ever said the red has to be on top? And that brought me to the realization that, if the photographer chose a BLUE filter to put visual separation between the colors, the red would go very dark, like the bottom stripe in the prototype photo of the Swift car, while the blue stripe would go lighter, and that same filter would cause yellow or imitation gold to go very dark, again as in that prototype photo. I sure hope Rapido has some documentation other than that one photo for their red on top decision, because I think it's wrong... Dennis Storzek
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Re: Manure shipped by rail
Craig Wilson
I model the midwest and wanted some extra uses for my gons and hoppers so It was my conjecture that "bulk" manure loads might be an accurate bill for them? --------------- January 4, 1975 / MILW 51674 (50 foot boxcar) / Vigoro sheep manure From: Organic Compost, Germantown Wisc / To: Vigoro, Toronto Ont Via: MILW - GBW - AA - DTI - CP January 14, 1975 / CVC 402583 (50 foot boxcar) / manure From: Compost Corp, Germantown Wisc / to F. Manley Corp, Etobicoke Ont Via: MILW - GBW - AA - DTI - CP Craig Wilson
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