Date   

F&C Lehigh Valley ‘wrong way’ boxcar question

Charlie Duckworth
 

I’m building the F&C LV boxcar kit with the doors going the wrong way.  When I added the trucks they are too close to the ends.  The boster centers where the rucks are centered is 32’.  I measured a Milwaukee SS boxcar and the distance for the center of the two trucks on it is 30’ 6”.  Does anyone have a Lehigh Valley diagram for these cars 78000-79499 that could validate the correct truck spacing?
 Thanks 
Charlie
--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


Re: Photos of NC&StL 70100-70199 and SP&S 32005-32054 41' Flatcar Ends

Todd Sullivan
 

Ken,

The photo I have of one of the SP&S flat cars has plain ol' RR Roman lettering, so I think you can get creative and use the dim data for one of the other RR's cars from the Champ set, and find an appropriate size of RR Roman lettering for the initials and number.  Or, an SP&S boxcar decal set might provide that lettering.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Refrigerator Car Return Instruction 1955

Bob Chaparro
 

Here is a link from the Trainweb site showing the large Baltimore & Ohio West 26th Street Freight Station and Storage Warehouse on July 7, 1951.  The location is between Eleventh and Twelfth Avenues in Manhattan.  There is a second B&O facility (West 24th Street Freight House) closer to the camera.  The structure to the left is the B&O and Republic Carloading Freight House.  The Republic section previously was operated by Seaboard Freight.

 

http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/bo26aerial1951.jpg

 

Click on the image to enlarge it.

 

In between the freight houses are at least nine stub-end tracks.  Notice the three successive refrigerator cars (One Great Northern, one SFRD and one PFE) among all the boxcars.  Dunnage is visible in the open doorway of the SFRD car. There is another PFE car closer to the camera in the first fully visible row. 

 

This was not a refrigerated freight house as far as I know and there is no rooftop equipment to indicate refrigeration facilities.  The smaller freight house closer to the camera likewise does not have refrigerated facilities.  In all likelihood the cars were used to ship products that required some protection from heat or rapid temperature changes. (It’s July, remember.)   

 

It is not as likely these cars were shipped to New York with some of the other items occasionally carried in reefers heading west such as newspapers and magazines from East Coast publishers, tires, furniture and various clean items such as canned goods, candy and boxed items, or LCL shipments from mail order houses.

 

Lastly, as there were three driveways between the various tracks it is possible whatever was unloaded from the reefers never went into either freight house but was placed on trucks.

 

This building is still standing.  The sign on it at street level (courtesy of Google Maps Street View) reads “Bedrock Mini-Storage”.  All signs of track in this area are gone.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photos of NC&StL 70100-70199 and SP&S 32005-32054 41' Flatcar Ends

Ken Adams
 

Another great project with an inexpensive plastic kit as the base for me. The 1954 photo of one of the SP&S flat cars in San Diego with a lumber load on Andrews trucks is enough justification for me. I won't look too closely as it may have been routed down the GN inside gateway to the WP and ATSF.  I have an Owl Mountain lumber load kit that would do nicely. 

 I didn't seen the SP&S flat car decals on the K4 site. Will require some more research to get the right size for the flat car side sill. 
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: RC Double Staggered Door 40' Box Car Redux

Ken Adams
 

SAL it is....and K4 has the decal in stock. I will get around to ordering when I have figured out what else I might need from the excellent K4 HO line of decals in the near future. In the meantime the project is back in its box.  I have stripped the D&RGW lettering and most of the paint with Testor's ELO and a soft tooth brush.

Geoffrey, I think I saw $ sign SOO Line in the K4 boxcar list.
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: RC Double Staggered Door 40' Box Car Redux

Tim O'Connor
 

On 11/11/2021 9:12 AM, Geoffrey Barbier via groups.io wrote:
Does anyone know where I might find a photo of one of these Soo Line cars with the billboard lettering?  Ted's decal sheet includes it, but I've only found photos with the earlier Dollar Sign lettering.

TIA!

Geoffrey Barbier
Allentown, PA

--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*


Re: Refrigerator Car Return Instruction 1955

Tim O'Connor
 


Stephen, thanks! Would this mean that the SFRD reefers in LCL service were used
only between ATSF freight houses?

Tim O'Connor


On 11/10/2021 10:39 PM, Steve SANDIFER wrote:

Yes. Santa Fe even built freight houses at Kansas City and Chicago where one track was 7” lower than the others where box cars and reefers could be located. The reefer floor was 14” higher than the box car floor so instead of pushing a 2 wheel dolly up 14” (wow) you would push it 7” up to a reefer or 7” down to a box car.

I have a conductors record book from 1923 in Kansas. It shows 1088 cars in trains. 288 of those were reefers (21%) of which 43 were in LCL service. 11% of the cars in this record were LCL cars: 101 westbound and 21 eastbound.

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2021 9:07 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Refrigerator Car Return Instruction 1955

 


I've seen many photos of cars at LCL freight houses and I can't recall ever seeing
a reefer amongst the box cars. Has anyone got photos showing this?

Tim O'Connor



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Photos of NC&StL 70100-70199 and SP&S 32005-32054 41' Flatcar Ends

 

Colin, I have two of these sets. One is complete, the other missing only the SSW stuff. I’ll send either one to you for free; just private reply with your snail mail address.

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Eric Hansmann <eric@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 8:06 AM
To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photos of NC&StL 70100-70199 and SP&S 32005-32054 41' Flatcar Ends

 

Champ made a special set for the Tichy flat car kit.

 

HC-646  Gould 40 ft - - 50 Ton Special Flat Car Set

 

In addition to the NC&StL, the sheet includes lettering for Canadian Pacific, Great Northern, Louisville & Nashville, M-K-TBAR, and WP. IIRC, Richard Hendrickson worked with Champ for this set.

 

One is on eBay now.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Champ-decals-HO-HC-646-Gould-40-50-ton-special-flat-car-G9-/401657582520?_ul=IL

 

You might also find a set in a hobby shop that handles lots of decals. Mainline Hobby in Blue Ridge Summit, PA, always had a large decal stock whenever I dropped in. Give them a call.

https://mainlinehobby.com/

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Carson via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2021 7:38 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photos of NC&StL 70100-70199 and SP&S 32005-32054 41' Flatcar Ends

 

Colin,

I bought Tichy flatcar decals months ago. I was planning on using those. I personally haven't got around to using any Tichy decals yet but I've read that they're thick? I don't think that'll be a concern though.


Cocoa Beach RPM

al_brown03
 

Two months to Cocoa Beach!

The "Bash at the Beach" returns January 6-8, 2022: with clinics, vendors, models on display, modular layouts, and Florida weather. For details, including prices and contact info, please see: http://prototyperails.com

See y'all in January!

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: Refrigerator Car Return Instruction 1955

George Eichelberger
 

The primary (?) reason for the FGE/WFE relationship was the ability to “follow the harvest” between the NW and South through the year. I realize there are many crop types in SFRD and PFE territory but was the use of reefers in LCL service because they were less used (out west) at various times during the year? There are many records showing which cars were used for banana shipments out of the Port of Charleston (Southern ran one of the banana piers there) but PFE and SFRD (plus others) were seldom seen.

Ike


Re: RC Double Staggered Door 40' Box Car Redux

Geoffrey Barbier
 

Does anyone know where I might find a photo of one of these Soo Line cars with the billboard lettering?  Ted's decal sheet includes it, but I've only found photos with the earlier Dollar Sign lettering.

TIA!

Geoffrey Barbier
Allentown, PA


Re: Photos of NC&StL 70100-70199 and SP&S 32005-32054 41' Flatcar Ends

Eric Hansmann
 

Champ made a special set for the Tichy flat car kit.

 

HC-646  Gould 40 ft - - 50 Ton Special Flat Car Set

 

In addition to the NC&StL, the sheet includes lettering for Canadian Pacific, Great Northern, Louisville & Nashville, M-K-TBAR, and WP. IIRC, Richard Hendrickson worked with Champ for this set.

 

One is on eBay now.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Champ-decals-HO-HC-646-Gould-40-50-ton-special-flat-car-G9-/401657582520?_ul=IL

 

You might also find a set in a hobby shop that handles lots of decals. Mainline Hobby in Blue Ridge Summit, PA, always had a large decal stock whenever I dropped in. Give them a call.

https://mainlinehobby.com/

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Carson via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2021 7:38 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photos of NC&StL 70100-70199 and SP&S 32005-32054 41' Flatcar Ends

 

Colin,

I bought Tichy flatcar decals months ago. I was planning on using those. I personally haven't got around to using any Tichy decals yet but I've read that they're thick? I don't think that'll be a concern though.


Re: Buffalo Creek boxes to Canada?

George LaPray
 

The Buffalo Creek cars were pretty common in Minnespta at least thru the mid 70s.  A lot of wheat moved by lake boats from Duluth Superior to Buffalo.  Some years they were not able to get  it all moved via water before freeze up, in those years expect hundreds of BCK boxes to show up in Duluth Superior for wheat loading to Buffalo. I recall solid trainloads of loaded BCK boxes heading east for Chicago mostly via SOO.


Re: Refrigerator Car Return Instruction 1955

Steve SANDIFER
 

Yes. Santa Fe even built freight houses at Kansas City and Chicago where one track was 7” lower than the others where box cars and reefers could be located. The reefer floor was 14” higher than the box car floor so instead of pushing a 2 wheel dolly up 14” (wow) you would push it 7” up to a reefer or 7” down to a box car.

I have a conductors record book from 1923 in Kansas. It shows 1088 cars in trains. 288 of those were reefers (21%) of which 43 were in LCL service. 11% of the cars in this record were LCL cars: 101 westbound and 21 eastbound.

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2021 9:07 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Refrigerator Car Return Instruction 1955

 


I've seen many photos of cars at LCL freight houses and I can't recall ever seeing
a reefer amongst the box cars. Has anyone got photos showing this?

Tim O'Connor

On 11/10/2021 6:19 PM, Richard Townsend via groups.io wrote:

I have a document from the Colorado & Southern (CB&Q subsidiary) instructing agents to use reefers for LCL if the travel was in the direction of the reefer's home.

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Nov 10, 2021 2:09 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Refrigerator Car Return Instruction 1955

I can’t speak to 1955, but in the 40s and early 50s ATSF used SFRD reefers commonly for LCL service.  The largest percentage of LCL traffic was from east to west and was clean, dry, and usually came short of cubing or weighing out a car.  Reefers were perfect for this.

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Refrigerator Car Return Instruction 1955

Tim O'Connor
 


I've seen many photos of cars at LCL freight houses and I can't recall ever seeing
a reefer amongst the box cars. Has anyone got photos showing this?

Tim O'Connor


On 11/10/2021 6:19 PM, Richard Townsend via groups.io wrote:
I have a document from the Colorado & Southern (CB&Q subsidiary) instructing agents to use reefers for LCL if the travel was in the direction of the reefer's home.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Nov 10, 2021 2:09 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Refrigerator Car Return Instruction 1955

I can’t speak to 1955, but in the 40s and early 50s ATSF used SFRD reefers commonly for LCL service.  The largest percentage of LCL traffic was from east to west and was clean, dry, and usually came short of cubing or weighing out a car.  Reefers were perfect for this.


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Buffalo Creek boxes to Canada?

Robert G P
 

Thanks so much Tim!       Fascinating topic.

-Bob

On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 9:12 PM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Bob, the rules are based on the idea of "home districts". The BCK belonged to district 16 which includes
New York and Pennsylvania. The rule is that if a car belongs to a railroad in District X, and the car is now
in District X, or is in any ADJACENT District Y, then - no matter which railroad it is on at the moment - it
can be sent as a load from X or Y to any other destination on any other railroad.

So an empty BCK box car in Texas for example would NOT be loaded in Texas to go to California, but it could
be loaded to go to New Jersey or Virginia or Maine - yet none of those destinations is "home" to the BCK.
In Maine, it could be loaded with clothes pins and sent directly to California - without violating any rules!
This is why freight cars famously could travel around for months or even years and never reach home rails.

Tim O'Connor


On 11/10/2021 6:44 PM, Robert G P wrote:
Pardon my ignorance on the matter, but why are those specific states highlighted? I was under the impression that any interchange XM car in the continental U.S could be loaded and shipped anywhere. 

Thanks 
- Bob

On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 6:20 PM Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Except many were stenciled for flour service only and return to Buffalo. We’re they used for other cargo’s, yes. Car service rule zero, protect the shipper. 

Also, what’s forgotten is these cars and their DL&W and LV cousins did go out west often due to integrated vertical manufacturing processes. Lots of flour milled in Buffalo was sent for further processing/use along. I have lists of photos in Texas at a sunshine bakery. 

I have a lot of data on flour/grain moves in and out of Buffalo but haven’t figured out a good way to present it that would be interesting.  

Brian J. Carlson 

On Nov 10, 2021, at 5:28 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


AHEM. The Buffalo Creek box cars were XM. They could be loaded by ANY railroad in Michigan,
Indiana, Ohio, Eastern Canada, West Virginia, Virginia, Maryland, Delaware. Pennsylvania, New Jersey,
New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, or Rhode Island with any
XM type of cargo and from there be sent to ANY destination in North America - under standard AAR
car loading rules.

Where is Tim Gilbert when we need him?? Weren't you guys paying attention during the YEARS of
discussions we had about car loading rules and why everyone's box cars went practically everywhere?

More generally, BCK box cars were a small percentage of the North American box car fleet, so they
were most likely infrequent visitors to western Canada or California or Texas - But they undoubtedly
did end up in those places sometimes.

Here is a ~1960 photo of BCK 2997 in Oakland, California.

Tim O'Connor



On 11/9/2021 10:56 PM, Jim Mischke wrote:

Bud and friend:


The Buffalo mills produced a variety of proprietary flours, mixes and feeds.   For a western Canadian customer, a Buffalo Creek boxcar will do.

Insulated boxcars protect ladings from temperature extremes.   Many are cold but few are frozen.   Jars and canned goods cannot be allowed to freeze, so that might be a lading for an insulated boxcar..  If western Canadian grocers want Mott's apple sauce from New York, an NYRB boxcar will do.

Canada has always been largely self-sufficient with pre-NAFTA tariff barriers to maintain it that way.  Yet there are many occasions when only an American product will suffice and distinctive US railroad cars make their way north.


--
Tim O'Connor


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Buffalo Creek boxes to Canada?

Tim O'Connor
 


Bob, the rules are based on the idea of "home districts". The BCK belonged to district 16 which includes
New York and Pennsylvania. The rule is that if a car belongs to a railroad in District X, and the car is now
in District X, or is in any ADJACENT District Y, then - no matter which railroad it is on at the moment - it
can be sent as a load from X or Y to any other destination on any other railroad.

So an empty BCK box car in Texas for example would NOT be loaded in Texas to go to California, but it could
be loaded to go to New Jersey or Virginia or Maine - yet none of those destinations is "home" to the BCK.
In Maine, it could be loaded with clothes pins and sent directly to California - without violating any rules!
This is why freight cars famously could travel around for months or even years and never reach home rails.

Tim O'Connor


On 11/10/2021 6:44 PM, Robert G P wrote:
Pardon my ignorance on the matter, but why are those specific states highlighted? I was under the impression that any interchange XM car in the continental U.S could be loaded and shipped anywhere. 

Thanks 
- Bob

On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 6:20 PM Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Except many were stenciled for flour service only and return to Buffalo. We’re they used for other cargo’s, yes. Car service rule zero, protect the shipper. 

Also, what’s forgotten is these cars and their DL&W and LV cousins did go out west often due to integrated vertical manufacturing processes. Lots of flour milled in Buffalo was sent for further processing/use along. I have lists of photos in Texas at a sunshine bakery. 

I have a lot of data on flour/grain moves in and out of Buffalo but haven’t figured out a good way to present it that would be interesting.  

Brian J. Carlson 

On Nov 10, 2021, at 5:28 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


AHEM. The Buffalo Creek box cars were XM. They could be loaded by ANY railroad in Michigan,
Indiana, Ohio, Eastern Canada, West Virginia, Virginia, Maryland, Delaware. Pennsylvania, New Jersey,
New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, or Rhode Island with any
XM type of cargo and from there be sent to ANY destination in North America - under standard AAR
car loading rules.

Where is Tim Gilbert when we need him?? Weren't you guys paying attention during the YEARS of
discussions we had about car loading rules and why everyone's box cars went practically everywhere?

More generally, BCK box cars were a small percentage of the North American box car fleet, so they
were most likely infrequent visitors to western Canada or California or Texas - But they undoubtedly
did end up in those places sometimes.

Here is a ~1960 photo of BCK 2997 in Oakland, California.

Tim O'Connor



On 11/9/2021 10:56 PM, Jim Mischke wrote:

Bud and friend:


The Buffalo mills produced a variety of proprietary flours, mixes and feeds.   For a western Canadian customer, a Buffalo Creek boxcar will do.

Insulated boxcars protect ladings from temperature extremes.   Many are cold but few are frozen.   Jars and canned goods cannot be allowed to freeze, so that might be a lading for an insulated boxcar..  If western Canadian grocers want Mott's apple sauce from New York, an NYRB boxcar will do.

Canada has always been largely self-sufficient with pre-NAFTA tariff barriers to maintain it that way.  Yet there are many occasions when only an American product will suffice and distinctive US railroad cars make their way north.


--
Tim O'Connor


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Buffalo Creek boxes to Canada?

Tim O'Connor
 


They were all stenciled return empty to Buffalo. But so what? Under AAR rules they would
be treated like other XM box cars. There's nothing in the ORER that indicates the cars enjoyed
some special exemption from the usual rules. Of course if the alternative is to return a car a long
distance as an empty, there's an incentive to find a load for it in the general direction of its home
road - but that incentive would apply to anyone's car in that situation.

There must be more to the story though. Buffalo Creek began buying new box cars over a short
period of time in the 1950's - from having no cars at all, to having almost 2,000! What happened
that led this small terminal railroad to do that?

Tim O'Connor


On 11/10/2021 6:19 PM, Brian Carlson via groups.io wrote:
Except many were stenciled for flour service only and return to Buffalo. We’re they used for other cargo’s, yes. Car service rule zero, protect the shipper. 

Also, what’s forgotten is these cars and their DL&W and LV cousins did go out west often due to integrated vertical manufacturing processes. Lots of flour milled in Buffalo was sent for further processing/use along. I have lists of photos in Texas at a sunshine bakery. 

I have a lot of data on flour/grain moves in and out of Buffalo but haven’t figured out a good way to present it that would be interesting.  

Brian J. Carlson 

On Nov 10, 2021, at 5:28 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


AHEM. The Buffalo Creek box cars were XM. They could be loaded by ANY railroad in Michigan,
Indiana, Ohio, Eastern Canada, West Virginia, Virginia, Maryland, Delaware. Pennsylvania, New Jersey,
New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, or Rhode Island with any
XM type of cargo and from there be sent to ANY destination in North America - under standard AAR
car loading rules.

Where is Tim Gilbert when we need him?? Weren't you guys paying attention during the YEARS of
discussions we had about car loading rules and why everyone's box cars went practically everywhere?

More generally, BCK box cars were a small percentage of the North American box car fleet, so they
were most likely infrequent visitors to western Canada or California or Texas - But they undoubtedly
did end up in those places sometimes.

Here is a ~1960 photo of BCK 2997 in Oakland, California.

Tim O'Connor



On 11/9/2021 10:56 PM, Jim Mischke wrote:

Bud and friend:


The Buffalo mills produced a variety of proprietary flours, mixes and feeds.   For a western Canadian customer, a Buffalo Creek boxcar will do.

Insulated boxcars protect ladings from temperature extremes.   Many are cold but few are frozen.   Jars and canned goods cannot be allowed to freeze, so that might be a lading for an insulated boxcar..  If western Canadian grocers want Mott's apple sauce from New York, an NYRB boxcar will do.

Canada has always been largely self-sufficient with pre-NAFTA tariff barriers to maintain it that way.  Yet there are many occasions when only an American product will suffice and distinctive US railroad cars make their way north.


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
<bck_2997 40ft_SD_box ACF-1956 shopdate 3-60 OaklandCA circa 1960.jpg>

--
Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Photos of NC&StL 70100-70199 and SP&S 32005-32054 41' Flatcar Ends

Ray Carson
 

Colin,

I bought Tichy flatcar decals months ago. I was planning on using those. I personally haven't got around to using any Tichy decals yet but I've read that they're thick? I don't think that'll be a concern though.


Re: Buffalo Creek boxes to Canada?

 

Interesting that Kadee just announced this car for November. 

Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Nov 10, 2021, at 6:53 PM, Jim Mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:



Sorry to sound so narrow.   I try to research and model known loads between certain shippers and consignees, in likely cars.  You were asking about specific Canada-bound boxcars and I framed examples for your consideration.

The originating railroad is responsible for finding a suitable car for a shipment, usually they have cars of their own to cover the traffic.  Finding load backhauls for empty foreign boxcars was common, home road boxcars were more the norm.

5221 - 5240 of 193487