Date   

Re: Kadee CGW box car oops?

Tim O'Connor
 

The picture I posted -IS- the Dyersville image. You can clearly see a Rock Island
box car red car coupled to it. No way was the 5464 car red or maroon --
and in
fact, the photo shows a red-maroon patch above the lube stencil.

Tim O'Connor

On 11/29/2021 7:30 PM, earlyrail wrote:

Compartmentalzer and Quick Loader.

I check my copy of the original posted image
Mine is from a C&NW Historical Society duplicate of a W A Vaugh original.
Shows a maroon body, much lighter the the post image
Taken Dyersville, IA 7/61

Howard Garner
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*


Re: Kadee CGW box car oops?

earlyrail
 

Compartmentalzer and Quick Loader.

I check my copy of the original posted image
Mine is from a C&NW Historical Society duplicate of a W A Vaugh original.
Shows a maroon body, much lighter the the post image
Taken Dyersville, IA 7/61

Howard Garner


Re: Single-sheathed box cars

Tim O'Connor
 


The NP and ATSF both had single sheathed hide cars.

On 11/29/2021 5:28 PM, Nelson Moyer wrote:

Most of the hide cars I’ve seen modeled were 40 ft. steel boxcars. Was that pretty standard, or were SS boxcars also used?

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 4:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Single-sheathed box cars

 

Owen, hides can indeed be heavy. Sometime in the 50s packing plants switched from salting dry hides to soaking hides in a brine solution and shipping them wet. Wet hides are indeed much heavier than dry hides.

 

As to interchange. Hides came from slaughter houses, ie packing plants. Most of which were located in the Mid-West, ie Chicago, Omaha, Kansas City, St Paul, Sioux City, etc. And you will find that many tanneries were located out east, New England, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Tennessee, etc. A IC hide car would most likely be in captive service. It could be loaded with hides online in Chicago, Dubuque, Waterloo, Fort Dodge, Omaha, Sioux City and other locations. But the raw hides would be headed east, interchanged most likely at Chicago to any of many eastern roads.

 

Doug Harding



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Kadee CGW box car oops?

Tim O'Connor
 


Could "C" stand for Car Pac, another type of special loading equipment?


On 11/29/2021 5:42 PM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

Brian;

 

In my experience, they refer to “Cushioned” and “Quick Loader”

 

May be wrong…..

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Termunde via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 5:35 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Kadee CGW box car oops?

 

What do those letters mean? The "C" and "QL" etc.? TIA!

Take Care,

 

Brian R. Termunde

Murray, Utah



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Single-sheathed box cars

Nelson Moyer
 

Thanks for the photos, Doug. I guess I can consign one of my XM-21s or XM-23s to hide service, since they were both built in the teens, and there were still  90 in revenue service in 1953.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 4:59 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Single-sheathed box cars

 

Nelson yes SS cars were used for hide service. Here are a few photos.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: Single-sheathed box cars

Nelson Moyer
 

The smell was what prompted my question. Intuitively, steel cars would stink less when the doors were closed than wood cars, since liner would soak up the slop, but it wouldn’t penetrate the steel, whereas SS cars would never dry out, and the smell would be worse outside the car, even with the doors closed. Of course, I doubt that the railroads cared much about shielding the public (or their employees for that matter) from odors.

 

I’d use an old steel boxcar as a hide car, but the CB&Q didn’t have any old steel boxcars in 1953. The built the first steel boxcar in 1940.

 

Seem to me that cars with damaged liners wouldn’t be good for hides, as they could damage the payload during loading and unloading.

 

I can relate somewhat to terrible smells. I had an EPA research grant to study pathogen removal in wastewater treatment lagoons at hog confinement facilities. I visited a couple of facilities to collect samples, and the odor was so strong that it escaped iced coolers holding the samples in the trunk of my car, and I had to drive two hours back to the lab with all the car windows rolled down just to be able to breath. The car reeked for about a week after that. I stored the samples in coolers in the cold room at the lab, and they were only opened for processing in a biological safety cabinet, not because they were that dangerous, but to contain and vent the odor. Fortunately, my research assistant did most of that work.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Todd Sullivan via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 4:35 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Single-sheathed box cars

 

Hide cars were any boxcars that were unfit for most kinds of loading - grain, finished lumber, merchandise, etc.  They tended to have rough interiors (worn out, interior sheathing splintered, with holes).  Once a car was loaded wiht green hides, you  NEVER loaded it with anything else.  Oh, and they smelled terrible!

Todd Sullivan


Re: Single-sheathed box cars

Douglas Harding
 

Nelson yes SS cars were used for hide service. Here are a few photos.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 4:28 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Single-sheathed box cars

 

Most of the hide cars I’ve seen modeled were 40 ft. steel boxcars. Was that pretty standard, or were SS boxcars also used?

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 4:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Single-sheathed box cars

 

Owen, hides can indeed be heavy. Sometime in the 50s packing plants switched from salting dry hides to soaking hides in a brine solution and shipping them wet. Wet hides are indeed much heavier than dry hides.

 

As to interchange. Hides came from slaughter houses, ie packing plants. Most of which were located in the Mid-West, ie Chicago, Omaha, Kansas City, St Paul, Sioux City, etc. And you will find that many tanneries were located out east, New England, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Tennessee, etc. A IC hide car would most likely be in captive service. It could be loaded with hides online in Chicago, Dubuque, Waterloo, Fort Dodge, Omaha, Sioux City and other locations. But the raw hides would be headed east, interchanged most likely at Chicago to any of many eastern roads.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: Single-sheathed box cars

Allan Smith
 

IC 50' SS cars 40140 and 40321 appeared on the Sierra RR in California in 1952 They hauled lumber from the Sonora mills to eastern markets. Conductors list from 1952 on the Sierra RR

Al Smith
Sonora CA

On Monday, November 29, 2021, 02:43:58 PM PST, mark_landgraf via groups.io <mark_landgraf@...> wrote:


I can attest that green hides showed up in Gowanda NY for many years in open top gondolas. As they collected rain or snow en route, it created a soup. The conductors were sure to keep coupling speeds low so as prevent slosh overs from occurring.  And oh the smell in the summer.

Mark Landgraf
Albany NY


On Monday, November 29, 2021, 5:35:19 PM EST, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:


Hide cars were any boxcars that were unfit for most kinds of loading - grain, finished lumber, merchandise, etc.  They tended to have rough interiors (worn out, interior sheathing splintered, with holes).  Once a car was loaded wiht green hides, you  NEVER loaded it with anything else.  Oh, and they smelled terrible!

Todd Sullivan


Re: Single-sheathed box cars

mark_landgraf
 

I can attest that green hides showed up in Gowanda NY for many years in open top gondolas. As they collected rain or snow en route, it created a soup. The conductors were sure to keep coupling speeds low so as prevent slosh overs from occurring.  And oh the smell in the summer.

Mark Landgraf
Albany NY


On Monday, November 29, 2021, 5:35:19 PM EST, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:


Hide cars were any boxcars that were unfit for most kinds of loading - grain, finished lumber, merchandise, etc.  They tended to have rough interiors (worn out, interior sheathing splintered, with holes).  Once a car was loaded wiht green hides, you  NEVER loaded it with anything else.  Oh, and they smelled terrible!

Todd Sullivan


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Kadee CGW box car oops?

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Brian;

 

In my experience, they refer to “Cushioned” and “Quick Loader”

 

May be wrong…..

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Termunde via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 5:35 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Kadee CGW box car oops?

 

What do those letters mean? The "C" and "QL" etc.? TIA!

Take Care,

 

Brian R. Termunde

Murray, Utah


Re: Single-sheathed box cars

Todd Sullivan
 

Hide processors were also in New York, specifically, the Endicott Johnson Shoe Company that stretched along the ERIE and DL&W tracks from Binghamton through Johnson City and Endicott (about 6 miles).  The WAG also served large tanneries in Elkland  and Westfield, PA just south of the NY-PA border.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Kadee CGW box car oops?

Brian Termunde
 

What do those letters mean? The "C" and "QL" etc.? TIA!

Take Care,
 
Brian R. Termunde
Murray, Utah


Re: Single-sheathed box cars

Todd Sullivan
 

Hide cars were any boxcars that were unfit for most kinds of loading - grain, finished lumber, merchandise, etc.  They tended to have rough interiors (worn out, interior sheathing splintered, with holes).  Once a car was loaded wiht green hides, you  NEVER loaded it with anything else.  Oh, and they smelled terrible!

Todd Sullivan


Re: Single-sheathed box cars

Nelson Moyer
 

Most of the hide cars I’ve seen modeled were 40 ft. steel boxcars. Was that pretty standard, or were SS boxcars also used?

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 4:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Single-sheathed box cars

 

Owen, hides can indeed be heavy. Sometime in the 50s packing plants switched from salting dry hides to soaking hides in a brine solution and shipping them wet. Wet hides are indeed much heavier than dry hides.

 

As to interchange. Hides came from slaughter houses, ie packing plants. Most of which were located in the Mid-West, ie Chicago, Omaha, Kansas City, St Paul, Sioux City, etc. And you will find that many tanneries were located out east, New England, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Tennessee, etc. A IC hide car would most likely be in captive service. It could be loaded with hides online in Chicago, Dubuque, Waterloo, Fort Dodge, Omaha, Sioux City and other locations. But the raw hides would be headed east, interchanged most likely at Chicago to any of many eastern roads.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: Single-sheathed box cars

Douglas Harding
 

Owen, hides can indeed be heavy. Sometime in the 50s packing plants switched from salting dry hides to soaking hides in a brine solution and shipping them wet. Wet hides are indeed much heavier than dry hides.

 

As to interchange. Hides came from slaughter houses, ie packing plants. Most of which were located in the Mid-West, ie Chicago, Omaha, Kansas City, St Paul, Sioux City, etc. And you will find that many tanneries were located out east, New England, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Tennessee, etc. A IC hide car would most likely be in captive service. It could be loaded with hides online in Chicago, Dubuque, Waterloo, Fort Dodge, Omaha, Sioux City and other locations. But the raw hides would be headed east, interchanged most likely at Chicago to any of many eastern roads.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Owen Thorne
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 3:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Single-sheathed box cars

 

Thank you, Jeff,

I can almost smell that hide car through my screen! 

Interesting that car IC 34861 in your photo does not match the diagram you sent for the earlier group of 50' s/s IC hide cars, 34990-99, embedded in the diagram for 40000-40089, which indicates "no metal panel," that the left door "closed" but not indicated, noted or shown as having been removed, and a "stemwinder" Universal brake wheel retained at that late date (1954?) As this new photo is of a power-brake equipped, wooden but steel reinforced door car in a new number series for me, I looked it up in ORER 1959 and found 34890-99 the closest series (ten cars) but not a match. So this conversion may have been either after our STMFC period or "off the books."

The CU FT 4303 of the hide car listings matches that of the three IC non-end-door equipped 50' composite autocar groups. Curious is the increase in CAPY from 75000 to 100000 lbs. Is this likely just a truck/bearing upgrade? The earlier discussed 34990-99 matching your diagram also showed this CAPY increase when they appeared in the 1955 ORER. Were hides so heavy?

In the 1959 ORER there is also a group of 74 (up from 68 in 1955) 40' 40t composite 6' door, small boxcars in 34900-34989 series so, IC guys, are all the 34xxx-series cars in the late-steam era hide cars?

Finally, how likely would IC hide cars be interchanged to deliver to a leather works in, say, Wilmington, DE, or Philadelphia, PA?

Thank you,
Owen Thorne 
owen at udel dot edu


Re: Photos of NC&StL 70100-70199 and SP&S 32005-32054 41' Flatcar Ends

Todd Sullivan
 

Ken -

Nice work on the SP&S flat.  I have two of these models built, and want to letter them SP&S as well.  I thought through the decal options you discussed without buying any, and decided that perhaps the  best approach is to use Microscale's 1/8" size from their No. 90001 Railroad Roman Letters and Numbers - White set.  I think the prototype lettering size for the initials and number on these flat cars was 10", so 1/8" in HO should be close.  Once I do the decalling -perhaps next week - I will post photos and comments.  Many thanks, however, for your leading edge research, as it has confirmed some suspicions I had about lettering sizes from boxcar decal sets.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Photos of NC&StL 70100-70199 and SP&S 32005-32054 41' Flatcar Ends

Ken Adams
 

After a lot of frustration with the decal situation for this car, I finally broke down and ordered the Champ set through eBay if only because it has most of the dimensional lettering I really need.  Apparently there was no SP&S reporting marks and number set on the decal.  Also it I understand the Champ set lacks reweigh dates. I have used a K4 SP&S boxcar set for now but this results in an oversize "SP&S". The car number was however the correct size.  The boxcar set lacks number to make up accurate Load Limit and Light Weight numbers and reweigh/repack dates and locations. I tried using lettering pieced together from my fairly extensive SP collection that includes T&NO and a few other older lines with an ampersand in the RR abbreviation but nothing matched the size needed for the flat car sill.  I would love a recommendation for a smaller SP&S RR reporting abbreviation.

Note I have modified the car for an AB airbrake upgrade to fit my modeling period.  I am only a semi-prototype modeler as I do not try to replicate all of the piping. I have a narrow Owl Mountain lumber load on hand to add some additional weight to the car. 
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: Single-sheathed box cars

Owen Thorne - owen at udel.edu
 

Thank you, Jeff,

I can almost smell that hide car through my screen! 

Interesting that car IC 34861 in your photo does not match the diagram you sent for the earlier group of 50' s/s IC hide cars, 34990-99, embedded in the diagram for 40000-40089, which indicates "no metal panel," that the left door "closed" but not indicated, noted or shown as having been removed, and a "stemwinder" Universal brake wheel retained at that late date (1954?) As this new photo is of a power-brake equipped, wooden but steel reinforced door car in a new number series for me, I looked it up in ORER 1959 and found 34890-99 the closest series (ten cars) but not a match. So this conversion may have been either after our STMFC period or "off the books."

The CU FT 4303 of the hide car listings matches that of the three IC non-end-door equipped 50' composite autocar groups. Curious is the increase in CAPY from 75000 to 100000 lbs. Is this likely just a truck/bearing upgrade? The earlier discussed 34990-99 matching your diagram also showed this CAPY increase when they appeared in the 1955 ORER. Were hides so heavy?

In the 1959 ORER there is also a group of 74 (up from 68 in 1955) 40' 40t composite 6' door, small boxcars in 34900-34989 series so, IC guys, are all the 34xxx-series cars in the late-steam era hide cars?

Finally, how likely would IC hide cars be interchanged to deliver to a leather works in, say, Wilmington, DE, or Philadelphia, PA?

Thank you,
Owen Thorne 
owen at udel dot edu


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] PRR F-41 Underbody

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Guys;

 

Keep in mind, neither the Walthers nor Tichy models are accurate on deck details for a F41 (no dash).  See attached.  There are visible longitudinal members visible in the deck that are not present on the standard “Commonwealth” flat as produced by GSC.

 

The deck mods are not terrible (I have done both), but require some thought and effort.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Lester Breuer
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2021 5:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] PRR F-41 Underbody

 

My friend is looking for photo or drawing of a PRR F-41 flat car underside. He has a Tichy Train Group PRR F-41 Flat Car Kit . The kit had no detail needed for underside.  He would like to add the AB brake Rigging under the car. The Kit was made for the Pittsburgh Limited 1996 Mid central region 50th anniversary convention. He has been unable to find any information for the underside on this PRR flat car.

Thank You for your time and effort to help.
Lester Breuer


Re: Single-sheathed box cars

Owen Thorne - owen at udel.edu
 

Hi Tim,
Thank you for adding these photos and your thoughts to the discussion. You are correct that the earlier discussion did revolve around the MDC (Roundhouse) cars as their features are better starting points to represent some other railroads' 50' s/s autocars (MP, T&P, WP, especially.)

The IC cars were different in several ways. If my understandings and research is correct, the two cars in your pictures match the earlier three of the five groups of IC 50' s/s autocars, and these did sport the 5-5-7 (top to bottom) corrugated ends (Murphy?) paired wood doors, and Hutchins roofs. See the diagrams Jeff Adams shared. While the Walthers 5800 series kit has the correct roof to model any of these earlier three IC groups, and the correct doors for at least two sub-groups (the others being 10') the ends would need to be scrounged or scratched. One of the three earlier groups also sported a Murphy end door.

But the fourth and fifth of the five groups of IC cars featured the same peaked Hutchins roof, the 11-panel, z-bar, Howe truss sides, and 3-3-3 early Dreadnought "outie" ends matching the Walthers kits, thus making them my preference for modeling these last two groups. One group of 50 IC cars also featured a Dreadnought end door like the Walthers kits, so that is another plus.

Some Frisco cars and one series of NP cars are close to Walthers with the 12' door opening, 11-panel z-bar Howe sides, and 3-3-3 "outie" Dreadnought ends matching but require builder fitting circular (NP) or radial (Frisco) roofs. Maybe next...

Were one to use any of the various 2100 series MDC (Roundhouse Athearn) kits to model any IC 50' s/s autocar, one would first need to replace the MDC radial roof, and the MDC 3-3-3 "innie" ends (a sort of 2.5-3-3 end, but pretty accurate.) These indented early Dreadnought (recessed, reverse, inverse?) were commonplace and used on several other 1920-30's 50' s/s autocars according to Richard Hendrickson's articles and photos published in RMJ in the 1990's and cited above (MP family, T&P, WP) but with radial roofs, also a feature of the MDC kits. There have been several excellent articles written detailing conversions of MDC kits to MP family, including T&P, and WP models. I do not recall anyone dealing with the MDC Roundhouse 50' s/s kits that featured a single wide door. Anyone else recall?

Thank you,
Owen Thorne

4901 - 4920 of 193481