Date   

Re: FORGOTTEN TREASURES

Don Burn
 

Has anyone ever started a list of known errors in MM drawings? At least then if someone wants to use them, they know what to watch out for.

Don Burn

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2022 7:04 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] FORGOTTEN TREASURES

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 02:39 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:


You all are misunderstanding the point. Yes, Hundman’s drawings are handsome, and yes, he produced a great lot of them, and yes, mistakes happen. My own problem with Mr. Hundman is that he would never admit a mistake or omission, nor allow any correction. A letter containing even a faint criticism of MM would not be published. As a result, a number of MM errors, doubtless unintentional and perfectly correctable, were kept quiet by this policy.

Tony,
Hundman may have had thin skin, he's certainly not alone in not liking criticism, but the real reason goes deeper. Bob Hundman was on a crusade to remake the standard for model railroad kits to follow the Kurtz Craft pattern, rather what Athearn, MDC, and Train Miniature had established as the defacto standard for plastic kits. He had finally found a 'live one' in Bill Gould, willing to risk his money on Hundman's vision, and the last thing he needed was someone to tell Gould, publicly, that he was wrong. Meanwhile, the only way the tankcar was going to get done was if he could find a drawing of a car with a four course tank, because, for all the skill Gould had as an engraver, he had limited expertise as a moldmaker. Richard's criticism of the choice of prototype therefore directly threatened the creation of this imagined new normal for plastic kits.

We all see how that worked out.

Dennis Storzek


Re: FORGOTTEN TREASURES

Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 02:39 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
You all are misunderstanding the point. Yes, Hundman’s drawings are handsome, and yes, he produced a great lot of them, and yes, mistakes happen. My own problem with Mr. Hundman is that he would never admit a mistake or omission, nor allow any correction. A letter containing even a faint criticism of MM would not be published. As a result, a number of MM errors, doubtless unintentional and perfectly correctable, were kept quiet by this policy.
Tony,
Hundman may have had thin skin, he's certainly not alone in not liking criticism, but the real reason goes deeper. Bob Hundman was on a crusade to remake the standard for model railroad kits to follow the Kurtz Craft pattern, rather what Athearn, MDC, and Train Miniature had established as the defacto standard for plastic kits. He had finally found a 'live one' in Bill Gould, willing to risk his money on Hundman's vision, and the last thing he needed was someone to tell Gould, publicly, that he was wrong.  Meanwhile, the only way the tankcar was going to get done was if he could find a drawing of a car with a four course tank, because, for all the skill Gould had as an engraver, he had limited expertise as a moldmaker. Richard's criticism of the choice of prototype therefore directly threatened the creation of this imagined new normal for plastic kits.

We all see how that worked out.

Dennis Storzek


Re: FORGOTTEN TREASURES

Scott H. Haycock
 

How is the quality of the scans? Are the pages readable? Are the images acceptable? 

Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent

On 04/05/2022 4:38 PM Kenneth Montero <va661midlo@...> wrote:


Chesapeake & Ohio Railway Historical Society sells a DVD containing all of the Mainline Modeler issues for $89.95.  Find the "Catalog" link near the bottom of the home page, click on it, then scroll to the bottom of that page.

Ken Montero

PS For folks looking for specific back issues, I may be able to help you find them for sale. Please contact me off-line at: va661midlo at comcast dot net.
On 04/05/2022 1:55 PM Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...> wrote:


Is there a readily available, easy to use electronic index to MM articles. I haven't found one yet. 

I didn't subscribe.  I did buy almost every issue in my LHS up until about 2001 when my mainline modeling interest waned and I went off on a narrow gauge tangent in F scale for about 6 years. by then MM was gone.
--
Ken Adams
Omicron BA2.2 may come and go but I still live mostly in splendid Shelter In Place solitude
Location: About half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: FORGOTTEN TREASURES

Kenneth Montero
 

Chesapeake & Ohio Railway Historical Society sells a DVD containing all of the Mainline Modeler issues for $89.95.  Find the "Catalog" link near the bottom of the home page, click on it, then scroll to the bottom of that page.

Ken Montero

PS For folks looking for specific back issues, I may be able to help you find them for sale. Please contact me off-line at: va661midlo at comcast dot net.

On 04/05/2022 1:55 PM Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...> wrote:


Is there a readily available, easy to use electronic index to MM articles. I haven't found one yet. 

I didn't subscribe.  I did buy almost every issue in my LHS up until about 2001 when my mainline modeling interest waned and I went off on a narrow gauge tangent in F scale for about 6 years. by then MM was gone.
--
Ken Adams
Omicron BA2.2 may come and go but I still live mostly in splendid Shelter In Place solitude
Location: About half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: FORGOTTEN TREASURES

Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 01:46 PM, Charlie Vlk wrote:

I find it interesting that, in spite of the advantages of computer drawing programs the content of drawings seems to have diminished in the magazines and I am not sure why this might be….

Because nobody builds anything from drawings anymore, Charlie. The magazines got tired of wasting space on drawings that only two pattern makers actually used, to craft masters for resin kits, which only a couple hundred modelers actually assemble. Scale drawings don't sell magazines, and they don't sell advertising, so why waste the space? Meanwhile, with all the archives of 'real railroad drawings', to borrow a line from Athearn advertising of years ago, that have become available, the pattern makers just decided to cut out the middleman with his errors, and go right to the source.

As to the 'French shading' style popular for published drawings, it's certainly doable in CAD, even easier in Illustrator. The main features are to use different line weights on the top and bottom of projecting features; CAD software dating back to the eighties had methods to map different line segments to different pens, and thus different line weights. The other notable feature was to draw domed features like rivets with a segment of the circle missing at the top left, again easily doable in any drafting or illustration package that allows a feature to be drawn once and copied multiple times.

The real reason you don't see it anymore is in my first paragraph.

Dennis (who had a few pen 'n ink drawings published) Storzek


 


FORGOTTEN TREASURES

Andy Carlson
 

I lost a friend of 40+ years back in 2020. He had an interesting life with many interests, not the least was scratchbuilding locomotives, most were in N scale. Through the numerous shared NMRA conventions, my friend had many visits with Bob Hundman and they both were avid Norfolk and Western fans. Bob bought many of my friend's N scale scratch built steam engines.

At one convention, which I also attended, my friend told Bob that his drawing of a certain articulated steam locomotive would have hampered any scratch building from his drawings. Seems the problem was there was no auxillary drawing of the sand dome hatch and none of the published photos offered a helpful view. Bob asked if my friend had made the locomotive, which was answered with a yes but with some unanswered ideas of the sand dome cover. Bob's response was that of the several 1000 issues that drawing was in, probably only one locomotive was scratch built from it. He said, rightly, I agree, that the drawings are for the most part simply eye candy with very little expectation that any use will come from the drawings.

Oh, bye the way, Giesel's M.R. drawings were commonly derided for their gross errors, obvious from viewing the prototype pictures included in these articles.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Tuesday, April 5, 2022, 02:39:57 PM PDT, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:


> Curt Fortenberry  wrote:
>
> All drawings have an error somewhere, can't be helped.  The drawings I produced, as were many of Bob's, were traces of the original source, and sometimes you just had to make an educated guess and fill in the blanks. 

You all are misunderstanding the point. Yes, Hundman’s drawings are handsome, and yes, he produced a great lot of them, and yes, mistakes happen. My own problem with Mr. Hundman is that he would never admit a mistake or omission, nor allow any correction. A letter containing even a faint criticism of MM would not be published. As a result, a number of MM errors, doubtless unintentional and perfectly correctable, were kept quiet by this policy.

Tony Thompson
tony@...







Re: FORGOTTEN TREASURES

Tony Thompson
 

Curt Fortenberry wrote:

All drawings have an error somewhere, can't be helped. The drawings I produced, as were many of Bob's, were traces of the original source, and sometimes you just had to make an educated guess and fill in the blanks.
You all are misunderstanding the point. Yes, Hundman’s drawings are handsome, and yes, he produced a great lot of them, and yes, mistakes happen. My own problem with Mr. Hundman is that he would never admit a mistake or omission, nor allow any correction. A letter containing even a faint criticism of MM would not be published. As a result, a number of MM errors, doubtless unintentional and perfectly correctable, were kept quiet by this policy.

Tony Thompson
tony@...


Re: FORGOTTEN TREASURES

Curt Fortenberry
 


I'll second what Charlie said.  I did a couple of drawings for MM (I'm a civil engineer and started out using ink as well), and before I started Bob gave me his tips on how he approached the drawings.  His drawings were art.  Only my last drawing was done on the computer in CAD.

All drawings have an error somewhere, can't be helped.  The drawings I produced, as were many of Bob's, were traces of the original source, and sometimes you just had to make an educated guess and fill in the blanks.  Bob would sometimes pass on a subject if there wasn't enough information.  He still produces but he's in his 80's now and he said he's starting to slow down.

Curt Fortenberry


Re: FORGOTTEN TREASURES

al whitecar
 

Charlie

Where did you go to school to get your degree in Arce? I went to Cal Poly school of architectural engineering and have a  BS degree. I am a registered structural engineer.

Al Whitecar

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Charlie Vlk
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2022 1:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] FORGOTTEN TREASURES

 

All-

 

I have a Bachelor of Science in Architectural Engineering and became a Illinois Registered Architect so am no stranger to a drafting board and T-square.  I was trained with wood pencils and ink ruling pens and spent many hours doing working drawings on velum cloth.

But I am still in awe of the likes of Bob Hundman and J. Harold Giesel who were the Deans of Model Railroad Presentation Drawings.

In my second career in the Model Railroad Industry I prepared a few drawings from photographs, field measurements and railroad source material for factory use and have a good  of the amount of blood, sweat and tears that go into making such drawings.   The work that I did was not meant for publication in a magazine and as such was not done in ink with the line weight conventions that made drawings in MM, MR, and RMC so striking.

No, those drawings were not always perfect.  But knowing the amount of work that goes into them I am astonished that the rate of production of those two gentlemen resulted in work that nobody seems to be matching today.

If you have looked at older Railroad Industry Journals the inspiration for their work is apparent.  The craft and artistry in mechanical drawings, presentation drawings and even realistic perspective renderings is breathtaking.

The work of Bob Hundman and J. Harold Giesel  should get more credit than either have received and I am sure there are others who also should be recognized such as Linn Wescott who did some workmanlike drawings in his early career at Model Railroader.

I know that some drawings done using CAD are being published occasionally but, while they might be more accurate (most are “modern” stuff that I don’t know well enough to judge) they sure don’t have the presence that the old pen and ink drawings had.

I find it interesting that, in spite of the advantages of computer drawing programs the content of drawings seems to have diminished in the magazines and I am not sure why this might be….

 

Charlie Vlk 


Re: FORGOTTEN TREASURES

Charlie Vlk
 

All-

 

I have a Bachelor of Science in Architectural Engineering and became a Illinois Registered Architect so am no stranger to a drafting board and T-square.  I was trained with wood pencils and ink ruling pens and spent many hours doing working drawings on velum cloth.

But I am still in awe of the likes of Bob Hundman and J. Harold Giesel who were the Deans of Model Railroad Presentation Drawings.

In my second career in the Model Railroad Industry I prepared a few drawings from photographs, field measurements and railroad source material for factory use and have a good  of the amount of blood, sweat and tears that go into making such drawings.   The work that I did was not meant for publication in a magazine and as such was not done in ink with the line weight conventions that made drawings in MM, MR, and RMC so striking.

No, those drawings were not always perfect.  But knowing the amount of work that goes into them I am astonished that the rate of production of those two gentlemen resulted in work that nobody seems to be matching today.

If you have looked at older Railroad Industry Journals the inspiration for their work is apparent.  The craft and artistry in mechanical drawings, presentation drawings and even realistic perspective renderings is breathtaking.

The work of Bob Hundman and J. Harold Giesel  should get more credit than either have received and I am sure there are others who also should be recognized such as Linn Wescott who did some workmanlike drawings in his early career at Model Railroader.

I know that some drawings done using CAD are being published occasionally but, while they might be more accurate (most are “modern” stuff that I don’t know well enough to judge) they sure don’t have the presence that the old pen and ink drawings had.

I find it interesting that, in spite of the advantages of computer drawing programs the content of drawings seems to have diminished in the magazines and I am not sure why this might be….

 

Charlie Vlk 


Re: Looking for a drawing of a Rock Island stock pen

Charlie Duckworth
 

Thanks, I’ve got a commercial coal bin on the other side of the elevator so they’ll be busy respotting not only the boxcars but a possible gondola of coal as well.  I’d forgot about the sand I’ll make sure it’s added. 

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 1:44 PM Douglas Harding <iowacentralrr@...> wrote:

Charlie I applaud your plan. Stockpens were often located near grain elevators in small towns. Your operators may regret your choice to put them at the end of the spur, as they will have to move grain boxcars everything they switch the stockpens. For your construction a single chute and two pens would be typical, at least one pen with a shed for hogs if modeling the Midwest. Include water troughs and water source, ie a pump, water pipe or windmill. Feed bunks always look nice. A pile of sand by the chute for fresh bedding. A plus would be small shed or half a boxcar for hay and feed storage. Or a worn path to the elevator for such supplies.

 

Doug Harding

https://www.facebook.com/douglas.harding.3156/

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK8X8Yb8NEAZqbZjHT5z0sA

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Charlie Duckworth
Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2022 12:57 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Looking for a drawing of a Rock Island stock pen

 

Doug and Steve were gracious enough to send me RI stock pen drawings and photos this morning.  Armed with that information I’ve added enough track to the MFA elevator track for two stockcars and two boxcars for grain loading.  Now to start pulling out Northeastern strip wood.  Before someone calls me out I know I still need to add the roof walk to the RI stock car.  



--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


Re: Looking for a drawing of a Rock Island stock pen

Douglas Harding
 

Charlie I applaud your plan. Stockpens were often located near grain elevators in small towns. Your operators may regret your choice to put them at the end of the spur, as they will have to move grain boxcars everything they switch the stockpens. For your construction a single chute and two pens would be typical, at least one pen with a shed for hogs if modeling the Midwest. Include water troughs and water source, ie a pump, water pipe or windmill. Feed bunks always look nice. A pile of sand by the chute for fresh bedding. A plus would be small shed or half a boxcar for hay and feed storage. Or a worn path to the elevator for such supplies.

 

Doug Harding

https://www.facebook.com/douglas.harding.3156/

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK8X8Yb8NEAZqbZjHT5z0sA

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Charlie Duckworth
Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2022 12:57 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Looking for a drawing of a Rock Island stock pen

 

Doug and Steve were gracious enough to send me RI stock pen drawings and photos this morning.  Armed with that information I’ve added enough track to the MFA elevator track for two stockcars and two boxcars for grain loading.  Now to start pulling out Northeastern strip wood.  Before someone calls me out I know I still need to add the roof walk to the RI stock car.  



--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


Re: Looking for a drawing of a Rock Island stock pen

Charlie Duckworth
 

Doug and Steve were gracious enough to send me RI stock pen drawings and photos this morning.  Armed with that information I’ve added enough track to the MFA elevator track for two stockcars and two boxcars for grain loading.  Now to start pulling out Northeastern strip wood.  Before someone calls me out I know I still need to add the roof walk to the RI stock car.  



--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


Re: FORGOTTEN TREASURES

Ken Adams
 

Is there a readily available, easy to use electronic index to MM articles. I haven't found one yet. 

I didn't subscribe.  I did buy almost every issue in my LHS up until about 2001 when my mainline modeling interest waned and I went off on a narrow gauge tangent in F scale for about 6 years. by then MM was gone.
--
Ken Adams
Omicron BA2.2 may come and go but I still live mostly in splendid Shelter In Place solitude
Location: About half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: FORGOTTEN TREASURES

Tony Thompson
 

Ed Mines wrote:

I always wondered why Richard Hendrickson didn't like the magazine/Hundman.
Because Hundman wouldn’t publish Richard’s letter, responding to Hundman's glowing review of the just-introduced tank car kit by Bill Gould (later produced by Tichy and still available). Richard pointed out that this “USRA” tank car was never actually built, though it was a beautifully designed and executed kit. And not only was Richard’s letter rejected, but Hundman stated (I’ve seen the letter) that Mainine Modeler never made mistakes. This was, let us say, a position that Richard did not accept.

Tony Thompson
tony@...


Re: Green Marked Coal

Bob Weston
 

Another marketing gimmick was the use of "scatter tags". These were small tags made of cardboard or thin metal that were imprinted with a  company's logo and other info. They were approximately the size of a quarter and came in various shapes such as round, square, triangular, diamond etc.  Coal companies would scatter these tags throughout loads of house coal so users could ID which company the coal came from. I believe they were used mainly in the first half of the Twentieth Century.  Bob Weston


Re: Green Marked Coal

Douglas Harding
 

It was a marketing gimmick, as people could not tell one chunk of coal from another. Hard to trademark coal, but spraying it with a color helped identify one “brand” of coal from another. It also assured coal dealers they were getting what they had ordered. Coal from different mines had different heating qualities, produced different amounts of ash, smoke, soot, etc. If a housewife found that blue coal created less soot and ash landing on her clean laundry, she was not about to let any other “brand” be delivered to her house.

 

Doug Harding

https://www.facebook.com/douglas.harding.3156/

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK8X8Yb8NEAZqbZjHT5z0sA

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert G P
Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2022 9:07 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Green Marked Coal

 

Wonder why it was sprayed?  If for any other reason than what Philip mentioned. 

 

-Bob

 

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 8:28 AM Philip Dove <philipdove22@...> wrote:

Perhaps slightly off topic but in some place if coal was to be stored undisturbed for a longer period owners sometimes whitewashed or painted the top of the heap so any theft was more noticeable because it left a black patch on the white surface. 

 

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022, 23:52 ed_mines via groups.io, <ed_mines=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I don't know anything about green coal but there was blue anthracite coal.

I believe the coal was sprayed while it was in hoppers so only the top layer of coal would be covered.
There were little cardboard circles mixed in with blue coal proclaiming it was blue brand coal.

Attachments:


Re: Green Marked Coal

Charles Peck
 

"Wonder why it was sprayed?  If for any other reason than what Philip mentioned. "
Back when many homes were heated with coal, coal was a consumer commodity. This was advertising.
They used claims like Cleaner Burning or Less Ash. Local home delivery coal yards could post 'We have Blue Diamond Coal"
and charge a premium price for it.  Coal sold to a railroad or a power plant was only set by price. Household consumer coal
was different.  Getting noticed, having a "Brand" meant getting more money. 
Chuck Peck

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 10:07 AM Robert G P <bobgp5109@...> wrote:
Wonder why it was sprayed?  If for any other reason than what Philip mentioned. 

-Bob

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 8:28 AM Philip Dove <philipdove22@...> wrote:
Perhaps slightly off topic but in some place if coal was to be stored undisturbed for a longer period owners sometimes whitewashed or painted the top of the heap so any theft was more noticeable because it left a black patch on the white surface. 

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022, 23:52 ed_mines via groups.io, <ed_mines=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I don't know anything about green coal but there was blue anthracite coal.

I believe the coal was sprayed while it was in hoppers so only the top layer of coal would be covered.
There were little cardboard circles mixed in with blue coal proclaiming it was blue brand coal.


Attachments:


Re: Freight Cars Journal

Todd Sullivan
 

Microsoft always knows best ... haha.

I disabled the spellcheck function on all my electronic devices long ago, and I live a relatively carefree life.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Green Marked Coal

Robert G P
 

Wonder why it was sprayed?  If for any other reason than what Philip mentioned. 

-Bob

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 8:28 AM Philip Dove <philipdove22@...> wrote:
Perhaps slightly off topic but in some place if coal was to be stored undisturbed for a longer period owners sometimes whitewashed or painted the top of the heap so any theft was more noticeable because it left a black patch on the white surface. 

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022, 23:52 ed_mines via groups.io, <ed_mines=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I don't know anything about green coal but there was blue anthracite coal.

I believe the coal was sprayed while it was in hoppers so only the top layer of coal would be covered.
There were little cardboard circles mixed in with blue coal proclaiming it was blue brand coal.


Attachments:

3041 - 3060 of 194714