Date   

Re: B&O m-15k & M-15n

Kenneth Montero
 

Jim,

The files were not attached to your email (as delivered). You might try sending each of them in separate emails if the size of the attached files with both photos is too large.

Ken Montero

On 05/13/2022 12:20 AM Jim Mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:




Yes, the M-15k wagtontops were used as cores for M-15n and M-15p wagtontop rebuilds.   The M-15k population was consumed quickly in the purest biblical sense.   For B&O modelers, this 1955-56 M-15k - to - M-15n/p is a notable and precipitous transition for rolling stock selection.

A main difference between the 1955-56 rebuilt M-15n and M-15p subclasses is that the M-15n's were 40-ton capacity, the M-15p's had 50-ton capacity.    The difference was not in the car structure but in the plain journal bearing capacities in the trucks used.

Ever the wear-it-out-patch-it-up-make-it-do B&O was given to reapplying brake gear and trucks to rebuild programs and cars built new from builder kits.   Much depended on what other cars were being retired at the time.   Paperwork was kept matching up donating car carcasses and their recipients by road number, for a safety audit trail.

Attached are two photos from the Tom Underwood collection at the Barriger library illustrating M-15n and M-15p.   Rather large raw files, I hope they come through.


Re: Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

Brian Carlson
 

You can’t find any in the 60’s or later because they just didn’t last that long unmodified. 

TH&B cars were long lived into the 50’s but they were an exception. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On May 12, 2022, at 11:58 PM, Jim Mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:



Regarding the past Rapido USRA double sheath boxcar and upcoming USRA single sheath boxcar release ..... and I am having trouble finding any road names for such boxcars that lasted up to and past 1960 in their original hardware appearance in general interchange.   AB brakes replaced K-brakes of course.   Plenty were rebuilt with aftermarket sides, not yet Rapido offerings.

Some ORER entries within and past this group's 1920-60 base timeline show several hardy CNJ USRA single-sheath boxcars still around, yet they may have been in lead-zinc service between the two Palmerton, NJ. smelters, a very short on-line move.

Some TH&B double-sheath boxcars were still around in yellow paint, yet they may have been operating on-line LCL service.

B&O's M-24 USRA single sheath boxcars were converted en masse to company service about 1953 or so.  They lasted a long time yet were not in revenue service anymore.   The last M-24a/b boxcars equippped with hoppers for cement loading lost their jobs about 1958.

Insights about long-lived USRA wood boxcars in an original hardware appearance would be welcome.











--
Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

Eric Hansmann
 

Two key articles on these USRA box cars were published in a couple of Railway Prototype Cyclopedia volumes. Both of these efforts are above and beyond any previous coverage.

RPCyc Vol 16 has 53 pages of data and photos covering the USRA Double-Sheathed box cars.

RPCyc Vol 17 has 51 pages of data and photos covering the USRA Single-Sheathed box cars and rebuilds.

I would be very surprised if these resources were not being used by the Rapido development team. There are probably other prototype photos of these cars that were not published in these volumes, but additional usage and ownership data would be minimal.

Have you asked if they are using these RPCyc volumes?

If these details spark curiosity among readers, you can download and review an RPCyc article index PDF from the Helpful Links page of the Resin Car Works blog. Scroll down a bit to the Prototype Resources links.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On 05/12/2022 9:58 PM Jim Mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:




Regarding the past Rapido USRA double sheath boxcar and upcoming USRA single sheath boxcar release ..... and I am having trouble finding any road names for such boxcars that lasted up to and past 1960 in their original hardware appearance in general interchange.   AB brakes replaced K-brakes of course.   Plenty were rebuilt with aftermarket sides, not yet Rapido offerings.

Some ORER entries within and past this group's 1920-60 base timeline show several hardy CNJ USRA single-sheath boxcars still around, yet they may have been in lead-zinc service between the two Palmerton, NJ. smelters, a very short on-line move.

Some TH&B double-sheath boxcars were still around in yellow paint, yet they may have been operating on-line LCL service.

B&O's M-24 USRA single sheath boxcars were converted en masse to company service about 1953 or so.  They lasted a long time yet were not in revenue service anymore.   The last M-24a/b boxcars equippped with hoppers for cement loading lost their jobs about 1958.

Insights about long-lived USRA wood boxcars in an original hardware appearance would be welcome.













Re: B&O m-15k & M-15n

Jim Mischke
 



Yes, the M-15k wagtontops were used as cores for M-15n and M-15p wagtontop rebuilds.   The M-15k population was consumed quickly in the purest biblical sense.   For B&O modelers, this 1955-56 M-15k - to - M-15n/p is a notable and precipitous transition for rolling stock selection.

A main difference between the 1955-56 rebuilt M-15n and M-15p subclasses is that the M-15n's were 40-ton capacity, the M-15p's had 50-ton capacity.    The difference was not in the car structure but in the plain journal bearing capacities in the trucks used.

Ever the wear-it-out-patch-it-up-make-it-do B&O was given to reapplying brake gear and trucks to rebuild programs and cars built new from builder kits.   Much depended on what other cars were being retired at the time.   Paperwork was kept matching up donating car carcasses and their recipients by road number, for a safety audit trail.

Attached are two photos from the Tom Underwood collection at the Barriger library illustrating M-15n and M-15p.   Rather large raw files, I hope they come through.


Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

Jim Mischke
 



Regarding the past Rapido USRA double sheath boxcar and upcoming USRA single sheath boxcar release ..... and I am having trouble finding any road names for such boxcars that lasted up to and past 1960 in their original hardware appearance in general interchange.   AB brakes replaced K-brakes of course.   Plenty were rebuilt with aftermarket sides, not yet Rapido offerings.

Some ORER entries within and past this group's 1920-60 base timeline show several hardy CNJ USRA single-sheath boxcars still around, yet they may have been in lead-zinc service between the two Palmerton, NJ. smelters, a very short on-line move.

Some TH&B double-sheath boxcars were still around in yellow paint, yet they may have been operating on-line LCL service.

B&O's M-24 USRA single sheath boxcars were converted en masse to company service about 1953 or so.  They lasted a long time yet were not in revenue service anymore.   The last M-24a/b boxcars equippped with hoppers for cement loading lost their jobs about 1958.

Insights about long-lived USRA wood boxcars in an original hardware appearance would be welcome.











Re: early insulated tank car

Steve SANDIFER
 

The car at St. Louis is NCHX #117, Monsanto Chemicals Company, 1940. Built by AC&F for Monsanto, 8000 gallon, double hull car designed for transporting concentrated nitric acid. The inner tank is constructed of an aluminum alloy which is protected by a cushion of air and a steel outer shell. Donated in 1961.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2022 6:35 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] early insulated tank car

 

Yes, with a printed paper wrapper to go over a milled wood core. Red Ball called it an acetic acid tank car. I have a kit but have not tried to build it yet. The tank ends are cast metal, as are the underframe and the dome.

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Drew M. via groups.io <phillydrewcifer@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 12, 2022 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] early insulated tank car

Didn't Red Ball at one time offer a model of the Monsanto car?

Drew Marshall in sunny South Philly

On May 12, 2022, at 18:21, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:

Monsanto car at the museum in St. Louis.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groupsio
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2022 12:12 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] early insulated tank car

 

There are actually a few prototypes (MCHX is in a museum, I think St. Louis). I've attached all of the photos I have of this type of tank car. Note that most of them are post-WWI builds, with the bulk of them being built during WWII. Mostly, they were used to transport nitric acid.

 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

 

 

 

 

 

On Thursday, May 12, 2022, 09:44:45 AM CDT, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:

 

 

Yes, it has a prototype.

 

 

Dan Mitchell

==========

 

On May 12, 2022, at 10:15 AM, Ray Hutchison <rayhutchison2@...> wrote:

 

There is an interesting Ambroid kit of an early insulated tank car, shown below, also released as a Northeastern kit  (Brass Trains has a built model of this, listed as brass but clearly the Ambroid kit, same decals and obvious builders error, for $225 ).  I would like to determine if this was a foobie (which I think would be uncommon for an Ambroid kit) as I have not been able to find any photographs of the car.  And if it is not a foobie, where there might be a builders diagram of the actual car.  Thank you for any leads...

<Screen Shot 2022-05-12 at 9.09.52 AM.png>

 


Re: early insulated tank car

Richard Townsend
 

Yes, with a printed paper wrapper to go over a milled wood core. Red Ball called it an acetic acid tank car. I have a kit but have not tried to build it yet. The tank ends are cast metal, as are the underframe and the dome.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Drew M. via groups.io <phillydrewcifer@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 12, 2022 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] early insulated tank car

Didn't Red Ball at one time offer a model of the Monsanto car?

Drew Marshall in sunny South Philly

On May 12, 2022, at 18:21, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:
Monsanto car at the museum in St. Louis.
 
 
J. Stephen Sandifer
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2022 12:12 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] early insulated tank car
 
There are actually a few prototypes (MCHX is in a museum, I think St. Louis). I've attached all of the photos I have of this type of tank car. Note that most of them are post-WWI builds, with the bulk of them being built during WWII. Mostly, they were used to transport nitric acid.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL
 
 
 
 
 
On Thursday, May 12, 2022, 09:44:45 AM CDT, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:
 
 
Yes, it has a prototype.
 
 
Dan Mitchell
==========


On May 12, 2022, at 10:15 AM, Ray Hutchison <rayhutchison2@...> wrote:
 
There is an interesting Ambroid kit of an early insulated tank car, shown below, also released as a Northeastern kit.  (Brass Trains has a built model of this, listed as brass but clearly the Ambroid kit, same decals and obvious builders error, for $225 ).  I would like to determine if this was a foobie (which I think would be uncommon for an Ambroid kit) as I have not been able to find any photographs of the car.  And if it is not a foobie, where there might be a builders diagram of the actual car.  Thank you for any leads...

<Screen Shot 2022-05-12 at 9.09.52 AM.png>
 


Re: early insulated tank car

Drew M.
 

Didn't Red Ball at one time offer a model of the Monsanto car?

Drew Marshall in sunny South Philly

On May 12, 2022, at 18:21, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:

Monsanto car at the museum in St. Louis.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2022 12:12 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] early insulated tank car

 

There are actually a few prototypes (MCHX is in a museum, I think St. Louis). I've attached all of the photos I have of this type of tank car. Note that most of them are post-WWI builds, with the bulk of them being built during WWII. Mostly, they were used to transport nitric acid.

 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

 

 

 

 

 

On Thursday, May 12, 2022, 09:44:45 AM CDT, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:

 

 

Yes, it has a prototype.

 

 

Dan Mitchell

==========



On May 12, 2022, at 10:15 AM, Ray Hutchison <rayhutchison2@...> wrote:

 

There is an interesting Ambroid kit of an early insulated tank car, shown below, also released as a Northeastern kit.  (Brass Trains has a built model of this, listed as brass but clearly the Ambroid kit, same decals and obvious builders error, for $225 ).  I would like to determine if this was a foobie (which I think would be uncommon for an Ambroid kit) as I have not been able to find any photographs of the car.  And if it is not a foobie, where there might be a builders diagram of the actual car.  Thank you for any leads...

<Screen Shot 2022-05-12 at 9.09.52 AM.png>

 


Re: Aerial Photo: U.S. Navy Brooklyn Yard (1937)

Robert kirkham
 

even shows the edge of the layout and the modellers tool bag on the floor beneath it.  

not

Rob

On May 12, 2022, at 3:31 PM, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:

This photo looks like a model, sharp turnouts and all.
 
 
J. Stephen Sandifer
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2022 11:36 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Aerial Photo: U.S. Navy Brooklyn Yard (1937)
 
Aerial Photo: U.S. Navy Brooklyn Yard (1937)
WPA photo courtesy of TrainWeb.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA
<image001.png>



Re: Delano paint comparisons .2

Robert kirkham
 

Here’s another Delano image & screen captures - this time, its also in Chicago in April 1943, https://www.loc.gov/item/2017878170/

The interesting thing I am noticing is how observations about one car in one photo run contrary to observations about another car in another photo.   And likewise, between two cars in one photo.

For example, in the first post earlier this week (https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/message/192581) , the paint on GN 1937 car shows little colour resemblance to GN truss rod car in the photo posted earlier today.   Maybe there is some commonality, but it's a stretch.  This GN car (next to a Rock Island car in the background) throws a third, quite different colour on the side sheathing.  Forget the idea of lighter value in this shot.
   

In the same way, the comments about the desaturated, light hue used on NYC in my email: https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/message/192617 aren’t born out in this photo (where NYC 262624(?) peaks out from ehind the IC gon and reefer.   Here, NYC freight car colour is a deep mineral boxcar colour.  


Likewise, the image of the Erie car in message 192617 showed some hints of its paint colour, but really leads to a different conclusion than emerges from this shot:

  

Here, the Erie car is showing more colour.  What little paint is on the B&O car in the foreground looks more bleached than the Erie car.  Comparing the Erie car with the IC autobox at right suggests the Erie paint is more brown than the the IC. 

But then compare the two IC autobox’s behind the B&O car.  Apart from the steel doors, they are very similar cars.  Yet the strongest resemblance between them is the colour of the filth, and one would get into difficulties the colour of either car was taken as standard:

Back to the drawing board, I guess . . . 


Rob


Re: early insulated tank car

Richard Townsend
 

It was in the July 2019 Running Extra.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Drew M. via groups.io <phillydrewcifer@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 12, 2022 10:11 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] early insulated tank car

There was an article with prototype date in a 2019 issue of Model Railroad Hobbyist about this car.

Drew Marshall in South Philly

On May 12, 2022, at 10:15, Ray Hutchison <rayhutchison2@...> wrote:
There is an interesting Ambroid kit of an early insulated tank car, shown below, also released as a Northeastern kit.  (Brass Trains has a built model of this, listed as brass but clearly the Ambroid kit, same decals and obvious builders error, for $225 ).  I would like to determine if this was a foobie (which I think would be uncommon for an Ambroid kit) as I have not been able to find any photographs of the car.  And if it is not a foobie, where there might be a builders diagram of the actual car.  Thank you for any leads...


Re: Aerial Photo: U.S. Navy Brooklyn Yard (1937)

Steve SANDIFER
 

This photo looks like a model, sharp turnouts and all.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2022 11:36 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Aerial Photo: U.S. Navy Brooklyn Yard (1937)

 

Aerial Photo: U.S. Navy Brooklyn Yard (1937)

WPA photo courtesy of TrainWeb.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: early insulated tank car

Steve SANDIFER
 

Monsanto car at the museum in St. Louis.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2022 12:12 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] early insulated tank car

 

There are actually a few prototypes (MCHX is in a museum, I think St. Louis). I've attached all of the photos I have of this type of tank car. Note that most of them are post-WWI builds, with the bulk of them being built during WWII. Mostly, they were used to transport nitric acid.

 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

 

 

 

 

 

On Thursday, May 12, 2022, 09:44:45 AM CDT, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:

 

 

Yes, it has a prototype.

 

 

Dan Mitchell

==========



On May 12, 2022, at 10:15 AM, Ray Hutchison <rayhutchison2@...> wrote:

 

There is an interesting Ambroid kit of an early insulated tank car, shown below, also released as a Northeastern kit.  (Brass Trains has a built model of this, listed as brass but clearly the Ambroid kit, same decals and obvious builders error, for $225 ).  I would like to determine if this was a foobie (which I think would be uncommon for an Ambroid kit) as I have not been able to find any photographs of the car.  And if it is not a foobie, where there might be a builders diagram of the actual car.  Thank you for any leads...

<Screen Shot 2022-05-12 at 9.09.52 AM.png>

 


Delano paint comparisons

Robert kirkham
 

Still messing around in Delano’s photos; probably boring some - sorry about that.  The comparison of paint colours seems useful for my modelling.  As with all these images, you may draw different conclusions than I about what we are looking at.  The reality of cars carrying different paint age and different weathering make this a bit of a mugs game, and I know it.     I’m trying to extract some insight within those limitations. 

This time, i’m looking at car pairs in this image: https://www.loc.gov/item/2017878074/.   According to the Library of Congress, it's still 1943.   

When I look at the T&P autobox below, I see a lot of filth and vestiges of various versions of boxcar colour.  I’m thinking it would be interesting to prime/paint a model a dark, low saturation brown and then use washes and dry brushing to add the boxcar red shades, followed by lettering and then other weathering. Haven’t tried that successfully yet.  That car would make a nice kit . . .

The GNR truss rod car has a rosy glow that reminds me of the GN car in a movie of a wreck on the PGE that was was posted here a few months ago c.1954.  https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/message/187189   But recent conversation about the film used by Delano and its colour representation makes me a bit cautious about that.  I notice the patches of boxcar red in the top 4-8 valleys of the steel doors on the TP car are not that different (a tinge more oxide).   Assuming that the film & exposure and scanning are moving these colours toward each other, it seems that a model of a GN car in 1943 would benefit from a paint coat that is a somewhat more red shade of boxcar red than i’d use for the T&P car.    I converted the shot to gray scale and note that the GN car is also a slightly lighter value than the other cars around it.  That could be important in terms of sorting out the relevant paint mix.   (i converted the colour image in Apple photos with a (thoughtless) click of a button; there is probably a "better” way (given my purpose)).


Here’s another pairing from the same LofC Delano image, showing an Erie and CB&Q car.  To me, the CB&Q car looks like it as a more fresh coat of paint, although you can see filth/weathering on the roof, car ends and above the Everywhere West slogan on the door.  To my eye, it’s a more saturated colour than on the T&P car, and more of a boxcar red than the colour on the GNR car.   

Comparing with the Erie car is all about contrasts.  Here the paint is mostly gone, exposing a very dark colour beneath and rust blooms in large patches.  The logo and reporting marks are very worn.  Drawing what i can from the remaining paint, my focus is on the brightest patch at the top, centre-right of the door, and note that its a washed out, desaturated boxcar brown.      For modelling, i think about using a sponge or something like it to add the boxcar brown after first painting the darker colours.  Haven’t tried that yet either.    

Once again, the gray scale image is useful in that it shows the value difference between that very saturated CB&Q colour, versus the dark undertones and vestiges of paint on the Erie car.   


The last screen capture i am pulling from the image is this trio of MP, NY and ??? SP maybe?  [I’m uncertain whether that is a UP boxcar (one track back, to the right of the tank car)?]  

I notice the colour of the NYC car is consistent with thoughts shared here from the past couple of days - how the NYC paint colour was a lighter value, lower saturation colour when compared to other railroads.    This is born out in the gray scale image following.   

The SP (maybe) car to the left is darker and more red.  And in between, we have the more typical boxcar red of the MP car.  




More grist for the modelling mill.  The MP car with its 8’6” IH appeals to me as a project . . . 

Rob 


Re: Aerial Photo: U.S. Navy Brooklyn Yard (1937)

Robert kirkham
 

The photo shows quite the interesting mix of old and newer equipment.   

Rob

On May 12, 2022, at 9:36 AM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:

Aerial Photo: U.S. Navy Brooklyn Yard (1937)
WPA photo courtesy of TrainWeb.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA
<dummyfile.0.part>


Re: early insulated tank car

Steve and Barb Hile
 

MCHX 117 is in the NMOT in St. Louis.  I took some pictures there in 2013.

 

 

The interior was/is accessible and I walked through it.

 

 

I was not surprised to see the round headed rivets on the interior.  But was surprised that they were also round headed on the exterior of the tank.  And that the wagon top cover was open at the bottom!

 

 

I wish that I knew better exactly what the jacket was designed to accomplish.  I think that it is less about insulation and more about containment of “lighter than air” vapors while in transit.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2022 12:12 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] early insulated tank car

 

There are actually a few prototypes (MCHX is in a museum, I think St. Louis). I've attached all of the photos I have of this type of tank car. Note that most of them are post-WWI builds, with the bulk of them being built during WWII. Mostly, they were used to transport nitric acid.

 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

 

 

 

 

 

On Thursday, May 12, 2022, 09:44:45 AM CDT, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:

 

 

Yes, it has a prototype.

 

 

Dan Mitchell

==========



On May 12, 2022, at 10:15 AM, Ray Hutchison <rayhutchison2@...> wrote:

 

There is an interesting Ambroid kit of an early insulated tank car, shown below, also released as a Northeastern kit.  (Brass Trains has a built model of this, listed as brass but clearly the Ambroid kit, same decals and obvious builders error, for $225 ).  I would like to determine if this was a foobie (which I think would be uncommon for an Ambroid kit) as I have not been able to find any photographs of the car.  And if it is not a foobie, where there might be a builders diagram of the actual car.  Thank you for any leads...

<Screen Shot 2022-05-12 at 9.09.52 AM.png>

 


AAR Rules

Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

Group,

I occasionally browse the Modern Freight Cars List, and noticed this posting last night, which I've re-posted here with Mr. Dawson's permission. Mr. Dawson was nice enough to add a little biographical information, which I've added at the bottom.

AAR Rules

I suspect that many, probably most, members of the railroad historical and enthusiast communities do not fully appreciate the significance and power of the AAR Interchange Rules.  How many industries can one think of in which your competitor can inspect your capital equipment, decide based on his inspection that it needs to be repaired, perform the repairs, send you a bill for the repairs (the arrival of which is likely the first that you have heard of it), and you are obligated to pay the bill?  Railroad freight cars do operate under such a system.  The origins of the freight car interchange system and of the railroad associations that control it are described in John H. White’s magnificent book, The American Railroad Freight Car.  To ensure that freight cars running on lines other than those of the car owner can operate safely and be repaired with a minimum of disruption and delay, all parties that operate cars in interchange, that is to say on lines other than their own, agree to subscribe to and be governed by the AAR Interchange Rules.  The rules are enforced by the fact that any railroad can refuse to accept cars offered in interchange that do not comply with the Interchange Rules.  Note that this does not prevent railroads from operating non-compliant cars on their own lines, although such cars are still subject to the requirements of the FRA Freight Car Safety Standards and safety appliance regulations.  It also does not prevent individual railroads from operating non-compliant cars by agreement among themselves.  For example, the 125-ton trucks used on most articulated double stack cars are not authorized for unrestricted interchange, but most railroads accept them over particular lines that can handle the higher axle loadings.  And the AAR does have standards for the wheels, axles, and bearings used on those cars. 

 

The Interchange Rules serve several different functions: 

 

  1. They ensure that the components of one car operate in harmony with those of other cars in a train.  The couplers on adjacent cars must couple and uncouple with each other reliably and must be at a known location on the car.  Cars’ air brake systems must respond in a predictable manner to control signals sent from the engineer’s brake valve.  It’s hard to imagine anything more crucial than that the cars in a heavy train descending a steep grade do not run away when the engineer makes a brake application and expects a particular speed to result. 
  2. They ensure that major components are interchangeable regardless of manufacturer, thereby reducing the number of different components that have to be stocked in repair facilities.  Thus, any E60 coupler (and each of its internal components) can be replaced by any other E60 coupler or component.  The ability of a train crew to replace a broken coupler knuckle out on the road is dependent on the knuckle kept in the locomotive (or caboose, in the past) being interchangeable with the one that failed. 
  3. Ensuring that cars in a train and their components have a minimum degree of strength to perform safely in the harsh railroad operating environment.  One aspect of this is the removal of obsolete and less safe cars or components from interchange operation like solid journal bearings, cast iron wheels, cast metal brake shoes, etc. 
  4. They establish criteria for repair or replacement depending on the extent of wear or damage.  Wheels representing the greatest maintenance and repair cost over the life of the typical freight car, Interchange Rule 41, “Wheels”, is instructive.  Among many other criteria, it states that wheels must be replaced when rim thickness falls below ¾” or 7/8” (depending on wheel size) or have thermal cracks in the flange or rim.  Similarly, Rule 12, “Brake Shoes and Shoe Keys”, states that brake shoes must be replaced when worn to 3/8” thickness or less. 
  5. If repairs are found necessary based on Section “A. Cause for Repairs” in the rule applicable to that component, appropriate repairs are defined in Section “B. Correct Repairs” of the same rule. 
  6. Each repair is assigned a Job Code at the end of the particular interchange rule.  In the Price Matrix of the Interchange Rules, commonly performed job codes are assigned a specific number of labor hours to perform the repair/replacement as well as a price for the component applied.  The hourly labor rate and component prices are updated annually and are uniform throughout the United States.  In 2015, for example, Job Code 1840, “Brake Shoe, Composition, High Friction 2 Inches”, established $6.70 for the cost of the new shoe plus 0.124 hours labor to perform the shoe replacement.  At the $120.54 standard labor rate, the labor cost to change the shoe was $14.95, for a total cost of $21.65.  Repairs for which standard hours have not been determined are billed at the actual number of hours expended times the standard labor rate. 
  7. A means is established to settle disputes over interpretation of the Interchange Rules and over whether one party was mistreated by another.  Perhaps another party performed (or claimed to perform) repairs on a car that the owner felt was unjustified under the Interchange Rules or charged an unjustified amount for the repair.  By signing the interchange agreement, car owners and repairing parties agree to submit such disputes to the Arbitration and Rules Committee (hence its name), whose rulings are final and absolute.  In addition to arbitrating disputes between different parties, the AAR also has a Mechanical Inspection Department which conducts unannounced audits of repair and inspection facilities.  I remember that at one time Conrail had to forfeit all its AAR billing from a particular location in Altoona for a specified period of time (one month, six months?  I don’t recall.) because of fraudulent billing. 

 

So, how are the Interchange Rules established, maintained, and updated?  As indicated in White’s book, they originated with the Master Car Builders Association in the latter part of the 19th century.  After several organization changes over the years, they are now under the jurisdiction of several technical committees within the AAR Safety and Operations Division.  Although at one time the AAR technical committees consisted solely of representatives of operating railroads, they now have members representing private car owners and suppliers.  Even though railroads now own less than 50% of interchange freight cars, railroads still retain a majority of voting members in each committee.  Since the railroads have to live with the results of any equipment failures out on the road, this is entirely reasonable in my opinion.  The Interchange Rules themselves, which are updated twice a year, are the responsibility of the Arbitration and Rules Committee.  The standards and specifications for cars and their components, which are made mandatory by reference in the Interchange Rules, are established by various technical committees.  Those committees are responsible for various aspects of freight cars and components such as brake systems, wheels and axles, couplers & draft gears, etc.  They, like the Equipment Engineering Committee of which I was a member for several years and Chairman in 2001 and 2002, make recommendations to the Arbitration Committee for any changes or additions to the Interchange Rules, but any actual changes to the rules are enacted by the Arbitration Committee.  Prices and standard labor hours are established by the Car Repair Billing Committee, which reports to the Arbitration and Rules Committee. 

 

Again, my thanks to Hudson Leighton for providing us with this list of changes to the requirements for freight cars and their components. 

 

Dick Dawson

A professional CV prepared by Mr. Dawson:

I have been a railfan for my entire life, but through pure coincidence I was able to take a job with the New York Central as an Assistant Engineer in the mechanical engineering department exactly one year, as it turned out, prior to the Penn Central merger. Following the merger, I transferred to Philadelphia to join the PC equipment engineering department.  Both the NYC and the PC were building freight cars in their own shops at the time, and I was quickly drawn into doing design work on them.  Among the cars I designed were the F50 coil steel cars and the X67  high-cube boxcars.  I left the PC to join Trailer Train in 1973.  I was hired as a research engineer but when the Railbox program of general service boxcars was started, I was transferred to that project because of my prior boxcar engineering experience in a company staffed with flatcar people.  After developing the Railbox specification I was hired by Berwick Forge and Fabricating to head their engineering department in 1977.  Berwick was primarily a boxcar manufacturer, but I also got involved with the Teoli bathtub coal gondolas which we built.  I stayed with Berwick Forge until 1984 when it went out of business following the virtual disappearance of the freight car market during the early 1980s.  The market for new freight cars has always been very cyclical, but the drop in the 1980s was extremely severe.  I was fortunate to be able to return to Trailer Train as Manager Quality Assurance but became Director Engineering & Research two years later when the incumbent retired.  I stayed with Trailer Train, whose name changed to TTX Company in 1991, until I retired from full-time work in 2003.  While at TTX, I developed the all-purpose spine cars, a series of heavy-duty and depressed-center flatcars, and two flatcars designed for auto rack service.  I represented TTX on the AAR Equipment Engineering Committee for 11 years and was its chairman for two years.  Before retiring I established the AAR Safety Appliance Task Force which wrote new regulations that superseded the FRA safety appliance regulations for new cars and continued as its chairman after retirement from TTX, working for the AAR until its work ended in 2019.  I did other consulting work for the AAR until 2020 and still do some work as an expert in litigation involving freight cars. - Dick Dawson

Dennis Storzek

 


Re: Application of K4 decals

Bob Chapman
 

I agree with Ken -- warm water seems to do the trick here. YMMV.

Bob Chapman


Re: early insulated tank car

Ray Breyer
 

There are actually a few prototypes (MCHX is in a museum, I think St. Louis). I've attached all of the photos I have of this type of tank car. Note that most of them are post-WWI builds, with the bulk of them being built during WWII. Mostly, they were used to transport nitric acid.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL





On Thursday, May 12, 2022, 09:44:45 AM CDT, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:


Yes, it has a prototype.


Dan Mitchell
==========

On May 12, 2022, at 10:15 AM, Ray Hutchison <rayhutchison2@...> wrote:

There is an interesting Ambroid kit of an early insulated tank car, shown below, also released as a Northeastern kit.  (Brass Trains has a built model of this, listed as brass but clearly the Ambroid kit, same decals and obvious builders error, for $225 ).  I would like to determine if this was a foobie (which I think would be uncommon for an Ambroid kit) as I have not been able to find any photographs of the car.  And if it is not a foobie, where there might be a builders diagram of the actual car.  Thank you for any leads...

<Screen Shot 2022-05-12 at 9.09.52 AM.png>


Re: early insulated tank car

Drew M.
 

There was an article with prototype date in a 2019 issue of Model Railroad Hobbyist about this car.

Drew Marshall in South Philly

On May 12, 2022, at 10:15, Ray Hutchison <rayhutchison2@...> wrote:
There is an interesting Ambroid kit of an early insulated tank car, shown below, also released as a Northeastern kit.  (Brass Trains has a built model of this, listed as brass but clearly the Ambroid kit, same decals and obvious builders error, for $225 ).  I would like to determine if this was a foobie (which I think would be uncommon for an Ambroid kit) as I have not been able to find any photographs of the car.  And if it is not a foobie, where there might be a builders diagram of the actual car.  Thank you for any leads...

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