Date   

Re: PFE 9245x R-30-5 in April 1943 - still in late 1920s paint?

Robert kirkham
 

The TMX reporting mark has a note in the 1953 ORER that says “See Mars Incorporated and Union Refrigerator Transit Lines, a Division of General American Transportation Corp”.  The TMX listing under URT notes that these cars are to be returned to the Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul and Pacific RR”, which is also interesting.  In 1953 there are three number series, 1000-1249, 1250-1399 and 1400-1999, for a total of 74 cars.    They are called out as between 41’6 and 43’ 5” external length, with internal length between 32’ 9 and 33’ 2”.

Rob   



On May 15, 2022, at 9:50 AM, lrkdbn via groups.io <lrkdbn@...> wrote:

That third photo intrigues me.What was the TMX car? Also, I think the next car is a ex Reading steel frame reefer in service to ERDX or DSDX
Larry King


Re: PFE 9245x R-30-5 in April 1943 - still in late 1920s paint?

lrkdbn
 

That third photo intrigues me.What was the TMX car? Also, I think the next car is a ex Reading steel frame reefer in service to ERDX or DSDX
Larry King


Re: Dry Ice Corp reefer, DICX ?? 218? in May 1943

Robert kirkham
 

Great selection of photos Tim.   Given the illegibility of the reporting mark in the Delano photo, no.208 in your email may even be the same car (with different lettering in some places).  

I spent a little more time reading the 1953 ORER for Pure Carbonic Company, and found the listing for 100 cars in series 160-259.  The cars were 25’ interior length, 6’ 1” IW and 6’ IH.



Rob  

  



On May 15, 2022, at 9:23 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


There were dry ice reefers (attached) and later on (mid 1950's) Pure Carbonic began to operate
a fleet of insulated box cars (RB bunkerless refrigerators) and those ran into the 1970's!

Tim O'Connor


On 5/15/2022 9:36 AM, William Dale wrote:
Rob,
     During the Valley Forge RPM, Steve Funaro presented on the dry ice cars of the era. While the photo attached is a finished kit he released, and not necessarily this exact topic, the car in question was touched off upon. Now, Steve did express an interest in doing these particular style of cars, it may be quite a time till we see it, but maybe it may be worth a try to contact them. Just a thought.

Billy

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts <dicx_208 40ft_reefer MDT PureCarbonic dryice circa 1956.jpg><dicx_128 40ft_reefer MDT partial-view PureCarbonic dryice PhiladelphiaPA 5-15-1949.ebay.jpg><dicx_190 40ft_reefer MDT PureCarbonic dryice BuffaloNY shopdate 12-52 scrap date 6-58.JParker 118.jpg><dicx_374 40ft_box RB rebuild PureCarbonic dryice shopdate 3-57.ebay.firstout.jpg>


Re: Repack interval

Bob Chaparro
 

I also have an interest in journal repacking stencils. The recent discussion motivated me to look back over the many comments that have been posted on this subject.

Below are comments made on this list with their authors identified. In some cases, the comments were edited to focus on the topic rather than the larger discussion they were part of, and some were edited for clarity. I’m sure I have missed some comments.
My appreciation to everyone who contributed to the topic.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

++++

 

1953 Rule 66, (a) Journal boxes on empty cars, not repacked within 15 months, as indicated by the stenciling on the car, regardless of the responsibility of the handling company for the change of wheels or other repairs, must be repacked.  After the expiration of fourteen months, if empty or loaded car is on repair track for other work, journal boxes must be repacked regardless of whether or not car requires other repairs.

Guy Wilber

 

The question of repack (not reweigh) interval has been addressed here on at least two occasions -- see threads beginning with #67797 and #106475.  These include weigh-ins from both Bob Karig and Guy Wilber.  The short answer is that that, starting in 1929, the interval seemingly went from 12 to 15 to 14 to 18 months.

Dave Parker

 

Would anyone on this site know just exactly what was entailed when a railroad serviced a car and stenciled on the REPKD plus date, location and road abr.name? Most early steam era truck journals used oil for lube with some form of cotton waste material to transfer the oil and wipe it on the journals, so where does the" repacked "come into it. Were journals checked routinely on cars from foreign roads and how and when would this be done. Obviously, the early style brasses would have needed much more attention than todays fit it and forget it roller bearings. So how was this managed for a car that was 3000 miles from its home road?

Dan Gledhill

 

In the 1950s, various types of patented journal lubricating devices began to appear, and the use of these became widespread in the 1960s. Prior to that, however, journal lubrication was accomplished exactly as Dan describes.  Periodically (typically, about once a year) the cotton waste would pack down and deteriorate to the point where it needed to be replaced, and the carmen who inspected and lubricated journals would remove the old stuff, put in new stuff, and fill the lower part of the journal box with oil.  The old repacking data on the car would then be painted over and new data stenciled on.

Richard Hendrickson

 

When a car knocker thought they needed to be, so it varied.  But a useful rule of thumb is about once a year until the mid-to-late 1950s. By that time most railroads had adopted various kinds of patented 

journal lubricators, which then extended the time between repacking.

Richard Hendrickson

 

Before 1929 Rule 66 stated that journals should be repacked as necessary.  March 1, 1929 The ARA's Arbitration Committee revised Rule 66 and required cars in interchange be repacked every twelve months.

In 1933 the interval was increased to fifteen months.  In 1955 the interval was increased to eighteen months.  Beginning in 1958 if cars were equipped with specified journal lubricating devices the interval was twenty-four months, otherwise eighteen months through 1960.

Guy Wilber

 

From 1946 Interchange Rule 66, Paragraph (c):

The place, month, date and year of repacking and the railroad or private line reporting marks, must be stenciled on car body near the body bolster at diagonal corners with not less than 1-in. figures and letters, using the same station initial as is used for air-brake stencil.  This provision also applies to new cars.

Effective January 1, 1949, The Interchange Rules were modified to include Rule 66-A which added the roller bearing lubrication instructions.

Guy Wilber

 

I did a study of repack data on about 100 freight cars some years ago. In all cases the railroad initials were used as well as the railroad's location initials. In more modern repack stencils the type of waste material or oil, I'm not sure which was also designated.  There was no particular order for this information.

Mont Switzer

 

Brake inspection and servicing seems to have occurred about as often as journal box repacking (i.e., about once a year, more or less), though not necessarily at the same time or place.  As a rule, old stenciling was painted over and the new stenciling applied in the same place, but (as some photos attest) that wasn't always the case.  Where two sets of information were visible, obviously the most recent one was current.

Richard Hendrickson

 

Those Repack stencil rectangles are also discussed in the SPH&TS book on painting & lettering SP and PFE freight cars (page 127).

Dick Harley

 

Regular journal box repacking.  Every 12 months starting in 1920; I think this also increased in the mid-1930s as there was some movement towards standardizing intervals.  I should know how/when it changed, but can't put my hands on it right now.

The repack stencils can be harder to see on cars without stub-sills, as they were generally applied to the center sill.

Dave Parker

 

The COTS stencil did not come in to being until 1966.

Prior to that the car would be stenciled just above the truck with information about repacking the bearings, i.e. the RPKD stencil with date and location and/or railroad. Some shops painted a black patch over the old information before stenciling the new information, but a study of boxcars photos does not show a consistency in the lettering location or terminology used. Some used “Journal Pac” in their stencil.

Doug Harding

 

The "Journal Pac", or references to "lubricators" also came very late in the history of solid bearings, post 1960. Both are references to proprietary journal pads rather than loose waste.

Pre-1960 was just RPKD, date, and station symbol stenciled in contrasting color in the vicinity of the right-hand bolster. Roads could paint out the old data however they wanted; some roads tried to match the car color (red or black), some roads just used their standard FC color on everything, some roads used black on everything.

Dennis Storzek

 

If you look at freight car photos, especially boxcars, you will see the stencil somewhere above or near the right truck. It will be two or three lines, small letters, usually white in color with abbreviations for the shop that did the work.

You are asking about detail lettering that was of little or no concern for many years to modelers and manufacturers. And most decal printers probably copied the same info in each new decal set as well. To my knowledge such detail has only become available since folks like Richard Hendrickson and Ted Culotta began pointing it out in their freight car articles. And the manufactures like Lifelike PK2000 began including such lettering on their models. And the decal producers realized there was a market for such detail.

As far as era goes, photos will be your guide. As for locations, any location where railroads had a RIP track might qualify. You will have to hunt down the proper lettering for you specific railroad or location.

Doug Harding

 

I just spent almost 2 hours looking at as many photos as I could find for the era this list is dedicated to - and solidified my thinking about "the general look and placement of the lube/repack data".

As more than one of you pointed out there are variations but, in general:

1) The prior data was painted over ... often in a color that makes them even hard to find - but just as often in a non-similar color with either black or tuscan being the most common choice for the "patch".

2) Then the new data was stenciled into that patch.

3) The patch is usually - but not always - above the right truck. If the car has one of those "tabs" sticking down from the general line of the sill it is often placed in that tab. I found several cars where it was placed to the left of the door about half way between the left edge of the door and the end of the car (mostly when done by/for UP - what's that about?).

4) As you go backward in time it gets harder and harder to find this detail. Perhaps they were placed somewhere else before about 1940?  If the photo is dated earlier than about 1935 or so there does not seem to be any such detail on the side of the car anywhere. Did I miss it?

Tom Birkett sent me a copy of a document detailing what was included in this info:

If you are doing this detail - whose decals are you using and what are you doing about the -need- for a variety of 'shops' to use?  And do you have some feeling for how many different 'shops' would be needed in order to have an acceptable feel for "these cars have been serviced away from their home roads fairly frequently"?

Jim Betz

 

The many Sunshine decal sets for reweigh symbols also included repack data, as do most Speedwitch sets and newer Microscale sets. Richard Hendrickson was of the opinion, after studying a heck of a lot of prototype photos, that at least of 80 percent of the repacks were from the owning road. But of course, the characters are so tiny as to be awfully difficult to read, so I have chosen not to worry about exactly what they say or what date they bear, for most models. And BTW, Richard also believed that repack frequency was approximately annually with solid-bearing trucks.

Then there are the brake service rules, and the lettering to go with it. That, and repack data, were the subjects of two posts on my blog. If you're interested, here are the links:

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2014/04/brake-service-rules-and-modeling.html

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2014/04/brake-service-rules-part-2.html

The second link shows the recommended lettering content and arrangement, though many photos contradict it.

Tony Thompson

 

AAR approved lubricating devices for plain bearings were required on all new and rebuilt cars as of January 1, 1957.  Cars which received heavy repairs (over 100 hours of labor) were subject to the same rule.

Cars so equipped were required to receive a 1-1/2" stenciled block of contrasting color near the original packing or repack stencil.  If the trade name of the device was applied to the car it was a requirement to maintain it as well.

Guy Wilber

 

A variety of patented lubricators were introduced in the 1950s which, in some form, secured the packing in place so that it remained constantly in contact with the journals. These were widely adopted by the major railroads. Apparently, they really reduced the frequency of hot boxes, especially as freight train speeds were steadily increasing.  Cars equipped with these lubricators were always stenciled, in the location where journal repacking was recorded, with the identity of its patent lubricators.  

Unfortunately, for modelers of the mid-1950s through the 1960s, no lettering manufacturer has offered suitable decals or dry transfers to replicate this stenciling AFAIK.

Richard Hendrickson

 

Journal bearings were a critical maintenance item on railroads.  Hot boxes resulting from poorly maintained journal bearings caused delays and derailments.  To prevent these problems, journal boxes

were routinely opened, inspected, and refilled with oil during each interchange. In addition, strict guidelines for their repacking were established by the A.R.A. under Rule 66 of the Code of Rules.

Repacking journal bearings was a labor intensive process.  The rules required that the journal boxes be jacked, that all journal wedges be removed, inspected, and replaced as necessary, and that the journal boxes be cleaned and repacked in accordance with association guidelines.  Only after all journal boxes on the car had been repacked could the stencil be applied indicating that they had been repacked. The rules required that the place, month, day and year, and the reporting marks of the repacking railroad be stenciled on the car body near the bolster at diagonal corners with not less than one-inch figures and letters.

 Over time, the rules regarding the interval between repacking of the journals changed. Prior to March 1, 1929, the rule stated that journals "should be repacked when necessary, using properly prepared

packing (new or renovated) in accordance with Recommended Practice, at which time all packing should be removed from the boxes and boxes cleaned; dust guards to be renewed (if necessary) or replaced when wheels are changed.

From March 1, 1929 through 1932, Rule 66 stated journal boxes should be repacked "after the expiration of twelve months," and from 1933 through 1955, the interval was fifteen months. In 1956, the interval was extended to eighteen months,32 and in 1958, the interval for cars equipped with journal lubricating devices was extended to twenty-four months. When a journal lubricating device was used, it would be indicated near the repacking stencil.

In 1950, the A.A.R. inserted Rule 66a governing the maintenance of roller bearings into its Rules of Interchange. Under this rule, railroads were required to lubricate the roller bearings every twelve months.  The place, month, day, and year of lubrication and the reporting marks of the railroad doing the lubrication along with the symbol "LUB" were to be stenciled near the body bolster at diagonal corners with not less than one-inch figures and letters. 

In 1958, this interval was modified slightly.  The interval for roller bearings lubricated with oil remained at twelve months, but the interval for those lubricated with grease was extended to eighteen months.

Bob Karig


Re: St Louis Refrigerator Car Co

Douglas Harding
 

20220514_201009.jpg20220514_201018.jpg

Charlie, I finally did some digging and found one of the SLRX cars I did almost 20 years ago, using a MDC reefer kit. Certainly not a detailed model, but at the time it was about the only option for a 36' car. As I was doing a string of Decker and Armour reefers at the time using Clover House dry transfers, I'm pretty sure the SLRX cars also have Clover House lettering.

Doug Harding
Youtube: Douglas Harding Iowa Central Railroad


On Sat, May 14, 2022 at 8:45 AM Douglas Harding via groups.io <iowacentralrr=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Charlie years ago I used the 36' MDC reefer and I think Clover House dry transfers https://cloverhouse.com/Cart/product_info.php?products_id=10176 
Not a hi detailed model, but an op session good enough.

Doug Harding
Youtube: Douglas Harding Iowa Central Railroad


On Sat, May 14, 2022 at 6:23 AM Charlie Duckworth <omahaduck@...> wrote:

Thanks for all the replies and images.  Lester Brewer upgraded a pre painted Accurail reefer that was done for a NMRA convention as one of his blogs.  Am thinking that’s a logical choice for a decal set.  SLRX also had bunkerless 36’ (or 34’?) reefers.  Is there a close model that could be converted to one of these cars as well?   

--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


Re: Dry Ice Corp reefer, DICX ?? 218? in May 1943

Tim O'Connor
 


There were dry ice reefers (attached) and later on (mid 1950's) Pure Carbonic began to operate
a fleet of insulated box cars (RB bunkerless refrigerators) and those ran into the 1970's!

Tim O'Connor


On 5/15/2022 9:36 AM, William Dale wrote:

Rob,
     During the Valley Forge RPM, Steve Funaro presented on the dry ice cars of the era. While the photo attached is a finished kit he released, and not necessarily this exact topic, the car in question was touched off upon. Now, Steve did express an interest in doing these particular style of cars, it may be quite a time till we see it, but maybe it may be worth a try to contact them. Just a thought.

Billy

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

John Riddell
 

Jim,

In July 1965 there were still 12 USRA DS boxcars in revenue service for the TH&B.

John Riddell


Re: Dry Ice Corp reefer, DICX ?? 218? in May 1943

Robert kirkham
 

I should have included a screen capture from the original image, as its not showing the car being issued by F&C.   Here it is:


Rob

On May 14, 2022, at 10:52 PM, Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

Thanks for the lead Phil.

Rob

On May 14, 2022, at 10:32 PM, nyc3001 . <nyc3001@...> wrote:

iirc most of the DICX reefers were rebuilt from MDT wood and composite reefers.

-Phil Lee



Re: Dry Ice Corp reefer, DICX ?? 218? in May 1943

kevinhlafferty
 

Those kits are actually available. They don't appear to be listed on the F&C website but Locomotive Hobbies has them available on eBay along with what I assume is an earlier style car. I have purchased one of the kits but am currently awaiting some replacement decals as the ones in the kit were disappointing. YMMV
F&C 8520

Kevin Lafferty


Re: Dry Ice Corp reefer, DICX ?? 218? in May 1943

William Dale
 


Re: Dry Ice Corp reefer, DICX ?? 218? in May 1943

William Dale
 

Rob,
     During the Valley Forge RPM, Steve Funaro presented on the dry ice cars of the era. While the photo attached is a finished kit he released, and not necessarily this exact topic, the car in question was touched off upon. Now, Steve did express an interest in doing these particular style of cars, it may be quite a time till we see it, but maybe it may be worth a try to contact them. Just a thought.

Billy


Re: Dry Ice Corp reefer, DICX ?? 218? in May 1943

Robert kirkham
 

Thanks for the lead Phil.

Rob

On May 14, 2022, at 10:32 PM, nyc3001 . <nyc3001@...> wrote:

iirc most of the DICX reefers were rebuilt from MDT wood and composite reefers.

-Phil Lee


Re: Dry Ice Corp reefer, DICX ?? 218? in May 1943

nyc3001 .
 

iirc most of the DICX reefers were rebuilt from MDT wood and composite reefers.

-Phil Lee


Re: Repack interval

greg kennelly
 

Thank you, Guy and others who responded to my question.  Based on that information, it would seem reasonable to me to expect that a photograph of a STMFC with a repack stencil of 4 Sep 1951 would be dated sometime between that date and early December 1952, or did a more stringent rule apply before 1953 that would shorten the interval.  I am attempting to determine the approximate date of introduction of a particular British American Oil Company paint scheme.
Greg Kennelly


Re: PFE 9245x R-30-5 in April 1943 - still in late 1920s paint?

Tony Thompson
 

Rob Kirkham wrote:

Continue to explore what is lurking in the Delano collection, and found this very partial image of PFE 9245X.   It is past the shed, among the nearer cars one track to its left (a little lower and further left than the two aluminum or white coloured tanks).   https://www.loc.gov/item/2017878186/.   Being only casually acquainted with the PFE, I went to the ORER first, and then to the PFE book and Tony Thompson’s blog.   Still wondering what I’m seeing.   So, not trying to be provocative but the photo makes me curious. 

<Screen Shot 2022-05-14 at 7.39.48 PM.png>

My understanding has been that the earlier, more yellow, PFE colour would have been long gone by the mid 1930s (see p.117 of the PFE book by Thompson, Church & Jones, 2nd ed.) but this photo (8-9 years after 47606 cars had been (re)-painted) doesn’t show orange.  

Rob, it’s well known that PFE orange weathered/faded to a yellowish color. That’s what you see.

Tony Thompson



Dry Ice Corp reefer, DICX ?? 218? in May 1943

Robert kirkham
 

I’m not sure how many colour photos there are of these reefers in the midst of WWII.  Pealing paint make the reporting marks a bit tricky, but if you squint right, they are obvious.  My 1953 ORER copy doesn’t list a car with the number series i’ve used; - something like 218?  Hard to say.  The car is a bright white (or aluminum?) colour - the second nearest car to the photographer, right of centre in the photos.    https://www.loc.gov/item/2017878179/

Might make an interesting modelling project.  I wonder if there are better photos or drawings, or it would be a “make your best guess” project . . .

Rob


PFE 9245x R-30-5 in April 1943 - still in late 1920s paint?

Robert kirkham
 

Continue to explore what is lurking in the Delano collection, and found this very partial image of PFE 9245X.   It is past the shed, among the nearer cars one track to its left (a little lower and further left than the two aluminum or white coloured tanks).   https://www.loc.gov/item/2017878186/.   Being only casually acquainted with the PFE, I went to the ORER first, and then to the PFE book and Tony Thompson’s blog.   Still wondering what I’m seeing.   So, not trying to be provocative but the photo makes me curious. 


My understanding has been that the earlier, more yellow, PFE colour would have been long gone by the mid 1930s (see p.117 of the PFE book by Thompson, Church & Jones, 2nd ed.) but this photo (8-9 years after 47606 cars had been (re)-painted) doesn’t show orange.   I’m thinking: armour-yellowish car sides, bare galvanized roof with bare wood or boxcar red battens, hatches, platforms and running boards, and uh?? boxcar red car end (unless that’s black?).   I suppose it could be very badly worn paint; it is mid WWII after all.

The other explanation -  colour issues with Delano photos - does not provide a satisfying explanation for this photo.  The rendering of colour in the balance of the photo indicates that orange was well within the capability of the film and exposure.  This small piece of loading dock equipment (to the left of the MKT boxcar) demonstrates that:

These other cars provide further evidence of the great range of colour in the photo.  Both are interesting, eh!  


Still having a lot of fun just exploring Delano’s record.


Rob


Re: Livestock car?

Nelson Moyer
 

The CB&Q converted baggage cars into horse cars with rows of screened windows on both sides of the doors like the ones in the photo. The only other thing I can think of is that this was a MOW car to carry a large crew of workers to the work site.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert kirkham
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2022 8:40 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Livestock car?

 

No reporting marks evident, but an interesting car.  https://www.loc.gov/item/2017878181/   Compared to the nearer cars a 45’ or 50’ car?

 

Yes, another Delano photo.   

 

 

Rob


Livestock car?

Robert kirkham
 

No reporting marks evident, but an interesting car.  https://www.loc.gov/item/2017878181/   Compared to the nearer cars a 45’ or 50’ car?

Yes, another Delano photo.   


Rob


Re: Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

Tim O'Connor
 


Thanks for that! I knew I bought that Westerfield GN kit all those years ago for a good reason, as
I was modeling up to 1960 then. But now in 1973 I expect they're gone - at the 50 year limit if for
no other reason.



On 5/14/2022 5:06 PM, Robert Heninger wrote:

Tim,

There's a Dick Kuelbs photo of GN 25947 on the MKT in Dallas, TX in 1961 on page 17 of Great Northern Equipment Color Pictorial, Book One - Box Cars and Stock Cars, by Scott R. Thompson. Granted, this is a USRA clone built 1923, but it is in revenue service, and is not labeled for hide service.

There's a J.W. Mathews photo of GN 25063 (a clone) at Wenatchee, WA in March of 1961, from Richard Hendrickson's collection published on page 138 of the Second Edition of Lines East, by Patrick C. Dorin. It is in revenue service, not labeled for hide service.

I have a photo in my collection of  GN 24667, which is one of the USRA cars, with a 4-62 reweigh date, taken 1962 in Baltimore, MD, by Joe Collias. This car too is in revenue service, and is not stenciled for hide service.

I do have a Joe Collias photo of GN 25183, one of the clones, taken in 1963 in Watertown, SD, labeled for hide service. 

The cars are all in the postwar overall mineral red scheme, with the "Great Northern Railway" herald.

One caveat: GN did replace the grab iron "ladders" on the cars with actual ladders in a post-WWII reconditioning of the cars, but they kept their wood running boards and Murphy XLA roofs.

The GN did use these two series as stock for 1950s rebuilding programs that resulted in stock cars, and many were converted to MOW bunk cars, etc. in the 1950s, but my July 1960 ORER lists 264 of the USRA cars and 367 of the USRA clones in revenue service.

These are the latest surviving revenue service wood sheathed USRA cars I am aware of.

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND 

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

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