Date   

Re: Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

Bruce Smith
 

Bill,


First, we’re really talking about cars with composite (steel and wood) or wood superstructures. While wood sheathing is applied to the interior of steel cars, they are not referred to as “double sheathed”, even if they really are. The sheathing consists of boards that are used to create the walls, floor, and sometimes roof, of the car.  On a single sheathed car, there is typically a single layer of boards that form both the inside lining and the outside “sheathing” of the car. These were typically attached to the inside of the metal superstructure (bracing) of the car, generating the modeling term “outside braced boxcar”.  On a double sheathed car, sheathing was attached to both the inside (liner) and outside (car body sheathing) of the car superstructure bracing. This provided greater protection from the weather for delicate loads that needed to be kept dry. In addition, it might be insulated, providing some level of temperature control.


Thus, on a practical level, single sheathed cars can be recognized by the visible exterior bracing, while double sheathed cars typically have a wood sided exterior with the bracing hidden behind the sheathing.

 

Regards,

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of "wrlyders via groups.io" <blyders@...>
Reply-To: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, May 16, 2022 at 11:53 AM
To: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

 

CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

This thread seems to have morphed into a “which single and double sheathed box cars cars made it thru the Transition era into the 60s”.

 

I have done some searches on sheathed box cars and know they were built in the 1910s thru WWII and lasted into the 50s.

 

I have a Northeastern Models single sheathed box car to build.

 

But I have a more basic question: What is a single sheathed box car vs. a double sheathed box car”? What is the sheathing?

 

Thanks, Bill

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ted Larson via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2022 7:46 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

 

As a kid I watched many GN trains go through town full of old SS and DS cars.  For online grain service they could have been at work past their interchange life? 




--
Ted Larson
Trainweb.org/MHRR   ---   GN in 1965   ---   NASG.org 


Re: Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

wrlyders
 

This thread seems to have morphed into a “which single and double sheathed box cars cars made it thru the Transition era into the 60s”.

 

I have done some searches on sheathed box cars and know they were built in the 1910s thru WWII and lasted into the 50s.

 

I have a Northeastern Models single sheathed box car to build.

 

But I have a more basic question: What is a single sheathed box car vs. a double sheathed box car”? What is the sheathing?

 

Thanks, Bill

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ted Larson via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2022 7:46 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

 

As a kid I watched many GN trains go through town full of old SS and DS cars.  For online grain service they could have been at work past their interchange life? 



--
Ted Larson
Trainweb.org/MHRR   ---   GN in 1965   ---   NASG.org 


Re: PFE 9245x R-30-5 in April 1943 - still in late 1920s paint?

al_brown03
 

On the subject of color shifts in old photos: understanding that the Mars car is actually chocolate brown, my first reaction was "Brunswick green".

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: F&C AC&F Mathieson Dry Ice Car

Ed Hawkins
 



On May 15, 2022, at 10:26 PM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

Given the SHPX markings on the early kit, is it reasonable to think the that car was built by AC&F?

Bruce,
Following is a list of ACF dry ice cars built with sides in which the upper part are sloped. Build dates range from 1935 to 1946. Several prior orders built from 1932 to 1935 had straight sides. In the list the 4-digit ACF lot no. is followed by the reporting marks, car no. series, quantity built, and build date. As the roster denotes, there were relatively few cars of this type built by ACF with all 38 built at the Chicago plant.

1409 - LCIX 1006-1010, 5, 5-35
1487 - MALX 5016-5017, 2, 5-36
1643 - MAWX 5018-5019, 2, 5-37
1681 - MAWX 5020, 1, 1937 (month unknown)
1801 - MAWX 5021-5023, 3, 4-38
2206 - MAWX 5024-5027, 4, 5-41
2427 - MAWX 5028-5032, 6, 4-42
2828 - SHPX 1500-1514, 15, 3-46 (leased to Mathieson) 

Painting specs for all cars: aluminum superstructure; black underframe, grabs, hand brake, brake rigging, and trucks. Stencils for the LCIX cars were green & vermillion. Stencils were black for MALX, MAWX, SHPX. Incidentally, these cars were not all of the same exact design. ACF drawings denote the same general arrg’t drawing applied to lots 1487, 1643, and 1681. A difference g/a drawing applied to lots 2206, 2427, and 2828. Lots 1409 and 1801 both had a g/a drawing unique to each lot number. In addition are 4 g/a drawings for dry ice cars with straight sides for MALX and LCIX. Four brake arrg’t drawings cover one lot with straight sides and three that apply to all 8 lots with sloped sides. 

The National Museum of Transportation has these g/a and b/a drawings plus numerous detail parts these cars. 

Contact me OFF-LIST if interested in obtaining a PDF of the available drawings. While I can provide the drawing list, the NMOT processes the orders.

Regards,
Ed Hawkins









Re: PFE 9245x R-30-5 in April 1943 - still in late 1920s paint?

ed_mines
 

I've seen many B&W photos of long strings of PFE reefers on the Erie.
Some cars are light colored; some are dark.
Erie had at least one tunnel which would get very smokey with a steam locomotive. The dark colored car are probably covered with soot and grime.)
Many colorants blanch (lighten in color) in sunlight. Old Westerfield boxes are a good example.
PFE inspected every car being returned and washed some cars. I think the cleaning solution may have encouraged the color shift.
Car servicing including washing and repainting was probably limited during WWII.
Tony's excellent book has pictures of steam era PFE cars in color and they were orange.
I've seen early '50s era color pictures of PFE reefers where the car side is yellow/gold and the reweigh data is on an orange, repainted background. 



Re: Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

 

Perhaps it’s time to change the subject line?

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Allen Cain <Allencaintn@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, May 16, 2022 at 8:24 AM
To: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

 

What industries would have been receiving dry ice reefers in the mid 1950s?

 

--

Allen Cain

Modeling The Southern RR in 1955 in HO Scale


--
Allen Cain
Modeling the Southern in 1955 in HO Scale


Re: F&C AC&F Mathieson Dry Ice Car was Dry Ice Corp reefer, DICX ?? 218? in May 1943

Allen Cain
 

The box states that it would fit up to 1960 but I cannot find it in the 1955 October ORER under the SHPX reporting marks included with the decals.

If this is correct are their decals available in HO which are correct for this car in 1955?

--
Allen Cain
Modeling The Southern RR in 1955 in HO Scale

--
Allen Cain
Modeling the Southern in 1955 in HO Scale


Re: Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

Allen Cain
 

What industries would have been receiving dry ice reefers in the mid 1950s?

--
Allen Cain
Modeling The Southern RR in 1955 in HO Scale

--
Allen Cain
Modeling the Southern in 1955 in HO Scale


Re: St Louis Refrigerator Car Co

Joe Pauley
 

Heres a few more


Roof ribs

Walter Cox <WaltGCox@...>
 

I am working on a six covered hopper car build and will require ribs for all 6 roofs. Is there a source for decent ribs or am I looking at scratch building them. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. The cars involved are the CNR semi clones of the AFC NYC cars. (Yeah, the old E & B Valley kits but they are the only game in town  and I have already scaled down the side ribs.)
Walt

In a message dated 5/16/2022 2:19:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, repairman87@... writes:
 

I have the General Arrangement drawings from AC&F of this car so it was definitely but by them.

I ordered one of these kits off of Ebay.  I will compare it to the drawings.  I looked at the photos of the Ebay kit and noticed the drawings indicate a miner lever hand brake not an Ajax.  Also the roof should have ribs where the seams meet.  Both of these should be easy fixes.  The underframe isn't even close to the General Arrangement drawings.  It has different cross members and the brake rigging is different.  The GA drawings call for leverage cams and other oddities for the time period.  Again certainly over comeable 

All that said I am excited to get the model.  It will build into a unique model.  Plus it's always a good day when new resin kits come out.

Scott McDonald 


Re: Rapido USRA double sheath and single sheath boxcar question

Ted Larson
 

As a kid I watched many GN trains go through town full of old SS and DS cars.  For online grain service they could have been at work past their interchange life? 




--
Ted Larson
Trainweb.org/MHRR   ---   GN in 1965   ---   NASG.org 


Re: F&C AC&F Mathieson Dry Ice Car was Dry Ice Corp reefer, DICX ?? 218? in May 1943

Scott
 

I have the General Arrangement drawings from AC&F of this car so it was definitely but by them.

I ordered one of these kits off of Ebay.  I will compare it to the drawings.  I looked at the photos of the Ebay kit and noticed the drawings indicate a miner lever hand brake not an Ajax.  Also the roof should have ribs where the seams meet.  Both of these should be easy fixes.  The underframe isn't even close to the General Arrangement drawings.  It has different cross members and the brake rigging is different.  The GA drawings call for leverage cams and other oddities for the time period.  Again certainly over comeable 

All that said I am excited to get the model.  It will build into a unique model.  Plus it's always a good day when new resin kits come out.

Scott McDonald 


F&C AC&F Mathieson Dry Ice Car was Dry Ice Corp reefer, DICX ?? 218? in May 1943

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

I purchased one of the new F&C Mathieson dry ice cars at the PRRT&HS Annual meeting this week and since it does not include very much prototype data, I was curious to learn more about these cars!

For example, the box indicates 1938 as the earliest date, but the decals seem to show 1942 as a build date for one car, and 1946 for another. 

Given the SHPX markings on the early kit, is it reasonable to think the that car was built by AC&F?

Regards,
Bruce Smith

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of bounce+13731+192676+676026+2098347@groups.io <bounce+13731+192676+676026+2098347@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2022 8:37 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Dry Ice Corp reefer, DICX ?? 218? in May 1943
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.


Re: PFE 9245x R-30-5 in April 1943 - still in late 1920s paint?

Jack Mullen
 

The Mars billboard reefers painted chocolate brown are fairly well known, since foobie versions have been applied to a number of inappropriate models. The post-ban plain lettered cars are less well known.  From b/w photos which showed a dark body color, I'd assumed the TMX cars remained in brown. This photo however seems to be dark green.  Anybody know more?

Jack Mullen


Re: St Louis Refrigerator Car Co

pennsylvania1954
 

Boxcar end on the left will help date the photo.
--
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


Re: AAR Rules

Guy Wilber
 

Dennis wrote:

"However, I felt that his explanation of how the standard charges for repairs worked, a topic that, to my knowledge, has never been discussed here, was worth the exposure and discussion. Indeed, just today someone seemed confused how a car could be repacked on a foreign line, and the answer is simple... it's due (which is why the date of the last RPKD is stenciled on the car) do it and bill the car owner."

One of the essential fundamentals of the Interchange Rules was that foreign cars were to be treated in the same manner as home cars.  All billing costs, both labor and parts, are listed within the Interchange Rules....any time you (or anyone) has a question regarding that aspect I will do my best to answer.  The procedural part is easy and I agree that Mr. Dawson did a nice summary of the process.  

"As to side agreements to handle non-compliant cars, someplace I ran into a reference That one of the major Canadian roads agreed to handle non-compliant cars for the Pacific Great Eastern to the Vancouver docks, but not beyond the Vancouver switching district. I imagine the PGE was a signatory to the AAR Interchange agreement, but also had lots of non-compliant cars; this would allow more of their meager roster to service their traffic. The problem is, since I don't remember where I saw it, I can't say for sure if it was pre-1960."

You unknowingly answered your own question.  As long as non compliant cars remained within a switching district to be loaded or unloaded it was permitted.  NO use in interchange.  There may very well have been exceptions, but those were VERY minimal.  Pacific Great Eastern was a subscriber to the Interchange Rules.  


Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada

 
 
 

 


Re: AAR Rules

Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Sun, May 15, 2022 at 03:53 PM, Guy Wilber wrote:
Mr. Dawson stated; "It also does not prevent individual railroads from operating non-compliant cars by agreement among themselves." 
 
Dennis, you recently made this same claim:  "The AAR regulations only governed interchange, and were based on an agreement between all the member railroads. As such, each road could use whatever "banned" equipment on its own lines, and even make side agreements to accept "banned" equipment from other roads."
I respect Mr. Dawson's contributions, he is well informed.  I do believe it is important to distinguish the differences within the periods of interest.  
Guy,
I agree completely, and since Mr. Dawson's entire career happened after our period of interest, he does not speak to the situation before his time. However, I felt that his explanation of how the standard charges for repairs worked, a topic that, to my knowledge, has never been discussed here, was worth the exposure and discussion. Indeed, just today someone seemed confused how a car could be repacked on a foreign line, and the answer is simple... it's due (which is why the date of the last RPKD is stenciled on the car) do it and bill the car owner.

As to side agreements to handle non-compliant cars, someplace I ran into a reference That one of the major Canadian roads agreed to handle non-compliant cars for the Pacific Great Eastern to the Vancouver docks, but not beyond the Vancouver switching district. I imagine the PGE was a signatory to the AAR Interchange agreement, but also had lots of non-compliant cars; this would allow more of their meager roster to service their traffic. The problem is, since I don't remember where I saw it, I can't say for sure if it was pre-1960.

Dennis Storzek 
 
 
 

 


St Louis Refrigerator Car Co

Charlie Duckworth
 

Anyone have any prototype images of the St Louis Refrigerator Cars with truss rods and know how long they lasted in service?   I’ve recently bought a spool of fishing line to do a WFEX car and have 700’ of line to use up.   

Thanks 

--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


Re: Dry Ice Corp reefer, DICX ?? 218? in May 1943

Dave Nelson
 

Tweeked slightly to remove some of that red overlay and to add a bit of cyan.  No assurance of accuracy to historical facts is given.
Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2022 9:23 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Dry Ice Corp reefer, DICX ?? 218? in May 1943

 


There were dry ice reefers (attached) and later on (mid 1950's) Pure Carbonic began to operate
a fleet of insulated box cars (RB bunkerless refrigerators) and those ran into the 1970's!

Tim O'Connor


Re: AAR Rules

Guy Wilber
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

I occasionally browse the Modern Freight Cars List, and noticed this posting last night, which I've re-posted here with Mr. Dawson's permission. Mr. Dawson was nice enough to add a little biographical information, which I've added at the bottom.

Mr. Dawson stated; "It also does not prevent individual railroads from operating non-compliant cars by agreement among themselves." 

Dennis, you recently made this same claim:  "The AAR regulations only governed interchange, and were based on an agreement between all the member railroads. As such, each road could use whatever "banned" equipment on its own lines, and even make side agreements to accept "banned" equipment from other roads."

There were no "side agreements" between railroads for use of equipment prohibited in interchange during the 1900-1960 period.  

Interchange Rule 130.  Acceptance or rejection of this Code of Rules must be as a whole, and no exception to an individual rule or rules shall be valid.

All members (railroads and private lines) signed onto and agreed to abide by the Interchange Agreement; "...the Subscriber will abide by The Code of Rules governing the condition of, repairs to, and settlements for freight cars for the interchange of traffic, as formulated and promulgated by the former Master Car Builders' Association and by The Association of American Railroads (Division V - Mechanical), or by either thereof (which rules are designated on the minutes of said Association's proceedings and are commonly known as "Interchange Rules"), and by each of said rules, and abide by each and all decisions and interpretations of The Arbitration Committee provided for by said Code of Rules..." 

"Although at one time the AAR technical committees consisted solely of representatives of operating railroads, they now have members representing private car owners and suppliers."

All the previous associations allowed representatives from private lines positions on the various committees.  Union Tank Lines and General American both had several representatives on the Tank Car Committee through the years.  Armour & Company had a representative on the Arbitration Committee as well as the Special Committee on Salt Water Drippings. 

"Even though railroads now own less than 50% of interchange freight cars, railroads still retain a majority of voting members in each committee.  Since the railroads have to live with the results of any equipment failures out on the road, this is entirely reasonable in my opinion.  The Interchange Rules themselves, which are updated twice a year, are the responsibility of the Arbitration and Rules Committee."

It was simply the Arbitration Committee during the 1900-1960 period which promulgated the Rules of Interchange.   

I respect Mr. Dawson's contributions, he is well informed.  I do believe it is important to distinguish the differences within the periods of interest.  


Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada
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