Date   

Re: grain elevators

david d zuhn <zoo@...>
 

To answer your question, while I have seen news photos of explosions at huge
elevator complexes, I've never seen a simple concrete elevator fire. Does
the concrete itself get damaged, or just the machinery portions?
A couple of amsll concrete elevators I've poked around in after a fire
showed that the interior of the concrete needed a real cleaning, to such
an extent that it was easier to clean it just enough to prep it for a
new skim coat conrete lining. All of the metal fittings needed to be
replaced (interior ladder, door ways, top machinery, etc).

These were fires from overheated contents, not explosions from the
dust.

The exterior was also in need of painting. The heat inside discolored
the surface pretty severely, but no damage. They could have just left
it, but the PR value of a burnt elevator isn't high.

--
david d zuhn <zoo@...>
Saint Paul Bridge & Terminal Ry.


Re: grain elevators

John Boren <mccjbcmd@...>
 


I think someone is mixed up that wood elevators with a metal or
asbestos covering on the out side made them fire proof. Also concrete
elevators were also more fire proof. This is not true. The danger of
fire came NOT from the outside but from the inside. There were
temperature probes put in each bin at about 10 to 15 foot intervals to
keep tract of the temperature in each bin if the wheat got to hot it
would erupt in flames. When the temperature reached a certain point
they would move it to another bin. The moving cools it off. That is why
an elevator never filled all of it's bins at least one would be empty
and depending the size of the elevator may many more. You have never
seen a concrete elevator on fire???? I have.
The metal coverings put on wood elevators was to protect it from the
wood rotting from the weather.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Larry, I agree that a lot of the fire hazard in a grain elevator is
internal. Plus there's an explosion hazard also. (I've heard that the
concrete elevators are designed so that in case of an explosion their top
blows off, possibly saving the rest of the elevator. But some disaster
photos I've seen show this certainly isn't guaranteed.)

But in smaller towns, not Salina but towns of a few thousand people or less,
the fire departments were pretty limited volunteer operations. These towns
would have problems with a fire starting in one building and spreading to
other buildings. I would think that siding would help in these situations.
It would as you mentioned also help weatherproof a building if
well-maintained. Not sure if it makes things worse by trapping water in
those elevators I've seen with the siding in bad shape.

To answer your question, while I have seen news photos of explosions at huge
elevator complexes, I've never seen a simple concrete elevator fire. Does
the concrete itself get damaged, or just the machinery portions?

I do appreciate your eyewitness comments (and others on this list) in
evaluating things I read in books. Kind of like going to a large company
and asking how things get done. You'll usually get different answers if you
ask the big boss or ask the people actually doing the work!

Jack Boren


Re: This is completely ON topic!

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Chris Barkan wrote:
I think the X-29's fore-runner, the X-25 is actually a more
interesting & attractive car, and it too is under-represented. And
it can lay claim to being the first large-production all-steel boxcar.

I considered the Class X25 cars, but quantity has a quality all its
own. Besides, it's fun to defeat arguments by the folks who claim "I
model (fill in the blank) RR - I don't need to know about those
Pennsy boxcars" by having them pull a yard or train photo from said
railroad and pointing out the X29s. Doesn't even work for the guys
out in Hawaii - the Oahu Railway had narrow gauge versions of the
X29, two of which survive in the Hawaiian Railway Society's
collection at Ewa. ;-)


Ben Hom
Ann-Margaret has a dash in her name, but PRR car classes DON'T...


Favorite freight car

David Soderblom
 

Hard to pick just one car, isn't it? A lot of their charm to me is out-and-out homeliness combined with interesting uniquenesses and logos.

favorite: SP GS gons; not unique to the SP, I know, but still... If I have to get more specific, I'll say G-50-23.

runners-up: MILW ribbed-side boxcars
B&O wagon-tops; them's homely, but spottable miles away
NYC "USRA" steel boxes; as plain as Jane gets
almost any flat car; breaks up the silhouette of a train so nicely, and you get to see the lading

favorite logos: SAL "Through the Heart of the South"
NP monad
DL&W "Phoebe Snow"
GN
CB&Q "Everywhere West"

David Soderblom
Baltimore MD


Re: This is completely ON topic!

Bruce F. Smith <smithbf@...>
 

Bill asks
In 100 words or less, what is your single favorite Steam Era Freight Car,
and WHY? Principal contributors Ted Culotta and Ben Hom are required to
respond.
Dangerous ground here Bill. "Favorite" implies emotional and not logical
reasoning, and thus a favorite car could be the antithesis of a logical car
<G>. After all, what stands out in the mind is often the oddball, or
unusual, so for favorites, I would have to vote for two, one-of-a-kind cars:

1) PRR X30 70' steel boxcar. A special purpose boxcar with end doors
designed for loading aerial ladder trucks for American LaFrance in Elmira
New York. A 70' boxcar in a fleet of 40'ers...too cool...AND the Elmira
branch is one of my favorite PRR branches...AND it combines a fascination
of trains and fire engines...Hopefully, Rail Classics will release this car
in HO shortly.

2) PRR FD2/FW1 flat car. Two cars really as there was a depressed center
body and a well hole body that carried different numbers. With 16 axles, 4
ex-tender trucks and its humongous size, it is a train all by itself (and
often had to handled as such!)

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
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|/_____________________________&#92;|_|____________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: Grainloading Facilities in the 1950's

Don Valentine
 

Quoting Mont Switzer <ZOE@...>:

SHAWN: ADDING TO WHAT ANDY HAS SAID MOST MIDWESTERN TOWNS STARTED OUT
WITH
A WOODEN ELEVATOR STRUCTURE THAT WAS USED TO GRIND FEED AS WELL AS
STORE
GRAIN FOR SHIPMENT. AS GRAIN PRODUCTION INCREASED AND FARMERS WENT TO
CASH
CROPS STORAGE SILO'S WERE BUILT USING THE FAVORED TECHNOLOGY OF THE
TIME.

NEARBY SULPHUR SPRINGS, IN IS A GREAT EXAMPLE. THE OLD FEED MILL IS A
WOODEN STRUCTURE BUILT BEFORE 1920. STORAGE CAPACITY WAS FIRST
INCREASED
WITH SILO'S BUILT OF CONCRETE BLOCKS WITH STEEL STAYS AROUND THEM.
I'M
GUESSING THIS WAS DONE IN THE LATE 1920'S OR 1930'S. NEXT CAME SILO'S
ASSEMBLED OF FLANGED STEEL BOLTED TOGETHER. THEY WERE PROBABLY BUILT
BEFORE
WWII. IN THE 1950'S A NEW REINFORCED CONCRETE DUMPER AND SILOS WERE
ADDED
AND THEY DOMINATE THE ELEVATOR TO THIS DAY. THE 1960'S SAW THE ADDITION
OF
HUGE CORRUGATED STEEL "GRAIN BINS" ADDED.

And this is the question I was about to raise. When did these galvanized
steel bins really come into general use? I can't recall really seeing them
until the end of "our" era.

Take care, Don Valentine


Re: Grainloading Facilities in the 1950's

Don Valentine
 

Quoting "Beckert, Shawn" <shawn.beckert@...>:


The point of my original question was to gain an understanding of
how boxcars in grain service were loaded in the 1950's. We know
grain was bagged and loaded into cars, we know that cars with grain
doors were loaded by chute.
Are we speaking of boxcars with Signode style grain doors being loaded by
chute or 40 ft. cars having doors with the special grain doors built into the
regular door?


But did wooden grain elevators load both
ways? And did concrete elevators load by chute only, or did some have
the capability to fill "by the bag" and load a boxcar the old fashioned
way?
How many elevators actually loaded "by the bag" at all? If each bag were
stitched this would require another whole operation although I suppose larger
bags could be used and simply tied off with a piece of binder/baler twine.


Re: Grainloading Facilities in the 1950's

Don Valentine
 

Quoting John Boren <mccjbcmd@...>:


Concrete elevators date back to about 1915 when they became the standard
for
building new elevators. Generally the wood ones weren't torn down,
however,
so concrete and wood types coexisted for decades. In fact, there are
still
quite a few wood elevators left. I see them all the time in small towns
in
Kansas still today.

But if reports on the Canadian news as recently as last week are correct
the wooden elevators are fast disappearing north of the border. We used to
have a standing joke in our family that in the northern American midwest if
you were at all confused with directions you looked for a grain elevator,
a water tower and a Lutheran church steeple in the skyline and drove into
town to ask.



Wood elevators were typically 65-75 feet tall, while concrete elevators
were
85-115 feet tall. (The very large elevator complexes with dozens of
bins
were up to 130' tall.) So as the need for capacity increased (higher
crop
yields plus trucks allowed grain to be hauled farther to larger
elevators)
there was a change to concrete because they had outgrown the practical
limits of wood elevator bins. A book I read (Grain Elevators by Lisa
Mahar-Keplinger IIRC) also stated that the factors favoring the
changeover
were concrete ones were cheaper, easier to build, and fireproof, and
lower
maintenance.

Most of the surviving wood elevators were sided after construction with
asbestos or metal, principally to reduce fires. The book stated that
wood
elevators without steel or asbestos siding burned on the average every
four
years!!
I beleive at least Canadian experience would show this to be somewhat
overstated. The other issue is how many were lost to fire and how many were
lost to dust explosions, an issue not even concrete can prevent. While the
the two are a least somewhat similar, a dust explosion being an extremely
rapid buring of the dust, they were not treated or recorded as the same.

Has anyone ever hear of a dust explosion in a grain car? Perhaps when
being loaded? It would seem the potential is there but I don't believe I've
ever heard of one.

Take care, Don Valentine


Re: Kadee C&O 50' PS-1

HAWK0621@...
 

In a message dated 5/21/03 2:02:46 AM, scottp459@... writes:

I'm surprised to find myself asking this, but where has a photo been
published
of the C&O 21000-21499 series as modeled by Kadee? I'm looking for one
in original form. I want to put about 9 years of wear on the paint job.
The photo in C&O Color Guide is in later paint and minus running board.
Otherwise the details seem to match well. I think?
Scott,
There's a photo taken July 1956 of C&O 21109 published on page 114 of Erie In
Color by Morning Sun Books. Two brand new Erie 50' box cars are shown coupled
to this car and is the primary reason the photo is in this book. The C&O car
was only three months old at the time. The photo is a distant shot taken from
a high angle of a freight yard with the C&O car in the foreground. Black ends
and an unpainted galvanized roof/running board is evident in the photo. It
appears to me that the seam caps were coated with black car cement, a
practice used by several builders during the early to mid-1950s on various
series of cars.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: This is completely ON topic!

CBarkan@...
 

I think the X-29's fore-runner, the X-25 is actually a more interesting &
attractive car, and it too is under-represented. And it can lay claim to being
the first large-production all-steel boxcar.

Chris-Barkan

In a message dated 5/20/03 8:58:49 PM, b.hom@... writes:

<< PRR Class X29: It wasn't the first steel boxcar. It had three significant
design limitations: a side sill design that trapped water, when combined
with a leaky roof design, led to significant corrosion problems in virtually
every car built. Additionally, the car had a smallish cubic capacity due to
its 8 ft 7 in IH. The Pennsy kept it in production so long that it was
obsolescent by the time the last one was built in 1932. But the Pennsy
built 28,701 of them, and they showed up in every kind of freight and
passenger (as express cars) all over North America from 1924 into the 1960s.
You simply can't model a steam era freight train without at least one. >>


Re: Favorite freight car

CBarkan@...
 

In a message dated 5/21/03 8:41:08 AM, drs@... commits blasphemy by
stating:

<< B&O wagon-tops; them's homely, but spottable miles away >>


Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder. I think the B&O's wagontops
are among the most esthetically attractive of all freight cars. Combined
with the elegance and uniqueness of their construction design, they are
certainly among my favorite. Of course I MIGHT be biased.

I agree that they are spottable from a great distance (perhaps even miles in
the right photograph!)

Chris Barkan


Kadee C&O 50' PS-1

Scott Pitzer
 

I'm surprised to find myself asking this, but where has a photo been published of the C&O 21000-21499 series as modeled by Kadee? I'm looking for one in original form. I want to put about 9 years of wear on the paint job. The photo in C&O Color Guide is in later paint and minus running board. Otherwise the details seem to match well. I think?
Years ago I did one from the Bev Bel/Robin's Rails kit, where I replaced much of their lettering with more accurate stuff from Champ, but I didn't make a note of what photo I was referring to!
Thanks
Scott Pitzer


Re: This is completely ON topic!

Denis F. Blake <dblake2996@...>
 

Without a doubt, from my view point, that would be the Seaboards 1932 cars.
These cars saw service for many years with some of them getting rebuilt into
ventilated express cars as well. The Seaboard was second in total owned of
these cars, behind the Mopac.

Sure would be nice to get a plastic model of this car but there were simply
too many variations and too few so called "major" owners for this to happen.

Best regards,

Denis F. Blake
NS Conductor
Columbus, OH
TTHOTS

Please visit my photo site at

http://hyperphoto.photoloft.com/view/allalbums.asp?s=cano&u=1665499

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Lane" <billlane@...>
To: "Steam Era Freight cars" <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 7:50 PM
Subject: [STMFC] This is completely ON topic!


Hi All,

I figured I would shake the list up with something that is completely ON
STMFC topic. Wow, what a novel concept I!! (:->)

In 100 words or less, what is your single favorite Steam Era Freight Car,
and WHY? Principal contributors Ted Culotta and Ben Hom are required to
respond.

This outta be interesting. I stir the pot, and see what happens.....

Thanks
Bill



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Re: This is completely ON topic!

thompson@...
 

Ben Hom said:
PRR Class X29: ...the Pennsy
built 28,701 of them, and they showed up in every kind of freight and
passenger (as express cars) all over North America from 1924 into the 1960s.
You simply can't model a steam era freight train without at least one.
I'd vote with Ben. That's why the X29 was on the first Friends of the
Freight Car shirt. (and you thought I was an unrepentant teaser of SPFs...)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Caboose brakes

thompson@...
 

Jace Kahn said:
It is not often that I can second-guess you on freight car matters, but some
of the four-wheel bobbers did, in fact, have only one brakewheel (notably
the famous Reading ones), perhaps because it was not so far from one
platform to the other as with eight-wheel cabooses.
Okay, Jace, I should have said that STATISTICALLY cabooses always had two
brake wheels. I'm sure that there are 19th century cars without them.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Athearn's 48-foot gon

thompson@...
 

Scott Chatfield writes:
Just a word about that gon. It does have a prototype, Bethlehem's late-50s
gon outfitted for coil steel service, thus the covers that were included
with some kits, and the extra rivets in the sides. Unfortunately, ol'
Uncle Irv shortened the car so it could reuse his 50-foot flat's fishbelly
underframe, which itself is a problem 'cause I think most if not all
fishbelly side gons had straight centersills, not fishbellies (and
certainly by the late '50s they did). That's why the gon is only ~48 feet
long...unfortunately, the way Irv compressed the gon's features makes it
impossible to kitbash it into a proper-length model of those Bethlehem
gons, short of cutting ALL of the ribs off the sides and relocating them on
a longer body...Irv rendered the ladders and
grabs wrong, I think because one of the few drawings was overly simplified.
And you're still sure, Scott, that this follows a prototype? I'd call it
a loose use of the word "follow."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: This is completely ON topic!

Spen Kellogg <spenkell@...>
 

Bill Lane wrote:
Hi All,
I figured I would shake the list up with something that is completely ON
STMFC topic. Wow, what a novel concept I!! (:->)
In 100 words or less, what is your single favorite Steam Era Freight Car,
and WHY? Principal contributors Ted Culotta and Ben Hom are required to
respond.
This outta be interesting. I stir the pot, and see what happens.....
SP Tea and Silk car. Second choice is the SP BR-40-10 express reefer.

Regards, Spen Kellogg


Re: This is completely ON topic!

Steven Delibert <STEVDEL@...>
 

Well, painful to answer an on-topic message, but this one is easy for
me: New York Central "USRA" boxcars, of course: Shouldn't exist, were
built by the bazillions and survived for decades, easy to spot, signature
car of my favorite big railroad, available in several variations in
Wonderful Westerfield kits, only close competition is Westerfield NYC
hoppers . . ...
Now, if somebody really made Ulster & Delaware models, we might have
something to debate, but otherwise, case closed for me! Doubtless rational
minds may differ.
Steve Delibert

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Lane <billlane@...>
In 100 words or less, what is your single favorite Steam Era Freight Car,
and WHY? Principal contributors Ted Culotta and Ben Hom are required to
respond.


Re: Grainloading Facilities in the 1950's

Mont Switzer <ZOE@...>
 

SHAWN: WHEN I WAS HANGING AROUND THE LOCAL ELEVATOR IN THE 1950'S AND
1960'S (BECAUSE IT WAS NEXT TO THE RAILROAD) THEY RECEIVED CORN, WHEAT, OATS
AND A NEW CROP, SOY BEANS. THE CORN WAS SHELLED AND ELEVATED TO BINS IN THE
ELEVATOR BUILDING. THE CORN COBS WERE ELEVATED ALSO AND THEN ALLOWED TO
DROP IN THE COB BURNER BY GRAVITY. THE WHEAT, OATS AND SOY BEANS WERE ALSO
ELEVATED AND STORED. BOXCARS WERE LOADED IN BULK BY GRAVITY FROM THE BINS
HIGH ABOVE IN THE ELEVATOR. SIX FOOT DOOR CARS ONLY, STEEL CARS PREFERRED.
THIS GRAIN WAS PURCHASED BY THE ELEVATOR FROM THE FARMERS AND WHEN RESOLD
WAS SHIPPED IN BULK BY RAIL. A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF GRAIN WAS RETAINED FOR
LOCAL FEED MILLING NEEDS.

THE ELEVATORS AROUND HERE WERE ALSO FEED MILLS. FARMERS WOULD BRING IN
THEIR GRAINS, DUMP THEM AND GET THEM BACK GROUND AND MIXED AS FEED IN BURLAP
BAGS. THE FEED BAGS WERE USUALLY HAULED BACK TO THE FARM IN THE SAME TRUCK
THAT BROUGHT THE GRAINS IN ALTHOUGH SOME FARMERS PURCHASED GRAIN THAT WAS IN
STORAGE IN THE ELEVATOR.

THERE COULD HAVE BEEN LOADS OF BAGGED FEED SHIPPED AND RECEIVED IN BOXCARS
DURING THIS PERIOD, BUT I DO NOT RECALL ANY. THIS WAS LEFT TO THE LARGER
MILLS THAT SHIPPED AND RECEIVED IN BULK.

THE LOCAL ELEVATOR ALSO RECEIVED VARIOUS GRADES OF COAL IN HOPPER CARS,
LIQUID FERTILIZER IN TANK CARS, BAGGED FERTILIZER, SALT, FENCING, FEEDERS,
WATER TANKS AND GATES IN BOXCARS. ALL OF THIS WAS SOLD AND DISTRIBUTED BY
THE ELEVATOR COMPANY. OCCASIONALLY WE WOULD SEE A FLAT CAR OF ELECTRICAL
POLES FOR THE LOCAL REMC OR TELEPHONE POLES THE LOCAL BELL TELEPHONE
AFFILIATE. YOU CAN GET A LOT OF MILEAGE OUT OF A SINGLE ELEVATOR SIDING.

IN RURAL AMERICA THE LOCAL ELEVATOR WAS THE HUB OF ACTIVITY DURING THE
HARVEST. BECAUSE OF THE ELEVATOR THE LOCAL BANK, DRUG STORE, RESTAURANT,
SERVICE STATION, HARDWARE AND A COUPLE OF OTHER SMALL BUSINESSES WERE IN
EXISTENCE. MONT SWITZER

----- Original Message -----
From: Beckert, Shawn <shawn.beckert@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 7:21 PM
Subject: [STMFC] RE: Grainloading Facilities in the 1950's


UPRR had covered hoppers in the 1940's
But UP #1-500 were 1958 cubic feet, 70 tons nominal capacity
cars which suggest they were intended to carry much denser
commodities than grain.
Grain hoppers generally were rated at around 3000 cubic foot
capacity for 70 tons nominal capacities. The UP had none of
these listed in the April 1949 ORER. I am aware of no such
animal existing on other roads in 1949, but my survey is rather
brief.
It's my understanding that the 70-ton cars were used primarily for
cement or sand loading. The GATX Airslide cars came along in the
late 1950's, as I recall, and I'm not sure that they were used for
grain so much as processed flour and the like. The "grain hopper"
didn't come into its own until the PS-2's of the 1960's, AFAIK.

The point of my original question was to gain an understanding of
how boxcars in grain service were loaded in the 1950's. We know
grain was bagged and loaded into cars, we know that cars with grain
doors were loaded by chute. But did wooden grain elevators load both
ways? And did concrete elevators load by chute only, or did some have
the capability to fill "by the bag" and load a boxcar the old fashioned
way? It's not an idle question; such information would be helpful in
modeling an elevator located in the southwest of the 1950's. I haven't
been able to locate any photos of grain elevators in the region/period
I'm modeling to help in resolving this issue.

Shawn Beckert




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Re: Brass costs

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: <thompson@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Brass costs


Tony Thompson moaned:

You mean I was supposed to get paid for all that research I did for
those
guys? Where were you when I needed you, Schuyler?
Yeah, well, I've done my share too, but I can tell you that when Alco Models
[to use a defunct example] did a model the research was ALL on the
contributor, or at least 95% was. Now, I know that some importers do their
own research. The contribution made by non-employees of the importer in the
cases of two cases I have personally been involved with was essentially
advising the importer where to find an example of the real thing, which they
went and researched themselves.

OTOH, I have done, for the same importer, extensive research into a
prototype which will be produced as a model, of which there is a snowball's
chance it would ever have been done otherwise. I will be compensated, at a
rate approaching $0.05/hr. If that.

SGL

175381 - 175400 of 194669