Date   

CABOT (CABX) carbon black hopper decals

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

I have a set of HO Scale "Early" CABOT (CABX 107) carbon black hopper decals that I'm not going to use. I believe that they might have come with an early release Rail Shops model but they may have been aftermarket. There are no other markings on the set which is all white, 2" x 4.75". I tried to scan them but the white decals on light blue paper... yeah... no.

Free to a good home. Just send me (OFF LIST) your snail mail and I'll pop them in the US mail for you. If you can't figure out how to send a private response to an on-list message, my email is smithbf at auburn dot edu.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: MOW cars, was Accurail MKT 36’ boxcar

Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

Even into the seventies the prewar steel cars had utility for certain classes of rough freight. I remember in the mid seventies riding the Lake St. "L" and seeing the C&NW team track yard at Rockwell St. (four block long tracks) filled with 40' steel boxcars. This was at the height of the used brick craze, where the "Chicago pink" common brick was shipped all over the country as designer 'rustic' building material, just as fast as they could tear condemned inner city buildings down. At that time the brick was shipped loose, stacked just three or four layers deep all across the car floor, loaded by laborers by hand with brick tongs. Later the businesses marketing the brick dropped off pallets and wrappers at the demolition sites and the day labor that was cleaning the bricks also stacked them.

The best reason to use old wood boxcars for bunk cars is they are easier to heat, think of the difference in volume between the typical caboose and a AAR boxcar, and the wood cars stay cooler during the summer. Also, starting in the late fifties there was a lot of older passenger cars being retired, and those were preferred for camp car conversions

Dennis Storzek


Re: MOW cars, was Accurail MKT 36’ boxcar

Steve SANDIFER
 

It could also be that railroads cut back on the use of sleeping facility type work cars. Unionized workers went to motels and restaurants instead of sleeping on the rails. 

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of mopacfirst
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2022 1:27 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] MOW cars, was Accurail MKT 36’ boxcar

 

Not sure why, but the 40' steel boxcars didn't seem to be well represented in later MoW builds.  One supposition I have is that more of the 40' steel cars from the forties and fifties tended to be retired because of obsolescence based of cubic capacity by the sixties - seventies, either scrapped or converted to 50' cars.  Many of the box-type MoW cars that existed in the forties - fifties were still around, having been converted from single- or double-sheathed cars, or (in the case of MP) steel-side rebuilds that were obsolete because of their small size.  Beyond the time of this list, much larger and more modern cars started to go to MoW, displacing these older cars.  In other words, the 40' steel cars tended to be just in the wrong time frame for much conversion to MoW.  Of course there are exceptions, like the UP box in Portola that's in full freight car scheme for its era but in silver with black lettering.

Another explanation is that the all-steel cars had more value as scrap than the old steel-underframe cars, so they perhaps were more likely to be cut up than converted to MoW.

Ron Merrick


Re: Photo: Standard Coal Company Box Car Unloader (1914)

Josh
 

The Standard Coal Company was located on the Denver & Rio Grande's Spring Canyon Branch in Standardville Utah. As the name indicates, it was a "standard city," one of the first built to a master plan, one of the most modern and technologically advanced towns in the entire country, incredible considering it was a coal company town. The foundations for the tipple still stand and are impressive.

This is all standard gauge. The Utah lines were standard gauged in 1889-1891. After that, there was not one single foot of narrow gauge track operated by the Rio Grande anywhere in the state, so chances are if you see a picture in this group taken in Utah the question "is this narrow gauge?" is moot.

Others have covered the hows and whys of this style of Ottumwa boxcar loader. A while back commodities shipped in stock cars were discussed. Stock cars also carried coal and there are many photos of stock cars positioned at the tipples of the Carbon County (Utah) coal fields of which this photo is a part of. This loader tipped the car up, a conveyor filled the end of the car to the door, then they placed temporary bulkheads against that load and tipped the car the other way and did the same on the opposite end. Unloading was done with good old fashioned shovels and muscle, since most coal yards that received these boxcars didn't have an unloading machine to reverse the process.

On the subject of winter supplies - coal mines don't shut down when it snows. Perhaps dealers did stock up in the fall, but the mines are still running 24 hours a day, seven days a week. They're not piling that coal at the mine portal, they absolutely must have sufficient cars at all times to handle 100% of their output every single day. This was a struggle for the D&RG to meet those requirements, which is partially why the Utah Railway was organized and constructed a parallel mainline once the mine companies were fed up with the inability of the D&RG to satisfy the demand for timely shipment. Thus, coal was being shipped all year long, especially during Utah's wet winters when slushy snow falls in the desert and freezes overnight, turning any open loads into solid blocks of ice which is still a problem today.

 

Josh Bernhard


Re: Photo: Standard Coal Company Box Car Unloader (1914)

Charles Greene
 

Bob,

Your post generated a fascinating discussion. Good 'ol American ingenuity...when there's a need someone will come up with a solution to fill that need. I found a patent (https://patents.google.com/patent/US1266474A/en) to supplement Doug Harding's post about the Ottumwa company.

Chuck Greene
St. Charles, IL


Re: MOW cars, was Accurail MKT 36’ boxcar

mopacfirst
 

Not sure why, but the 40' steel boxcars didn't seem to be well represented in later MoW builds.  One supposition I have is that more of the 40' steel cars from the forties and fifties tended to be retired because of obsolescence based of cubic capacity by the sixties - seventies, either scrapped or converted to 50' cars.  Many of the box-type MoW cars that existed in the forties - fifties were still around, having been converted from single- or double-sheathed cars, or (in the case of MP) steel-side rebuilds that were obsolete because of their small size.  Beyond the time of this list, much larger and more modern cars started to go to MoW, displacing these older cars.  In other words, the 40' steel cars tended to be just in the wrong time frame for much conversion to MoW.  Of course there are exceptions, like the UP box in Portola that's in full freight car scheme for its era but in silver with black lettering.

Another explanation is that the all-steel cars had more value as scrap than the old steel-underframe cars, so they perhaps were more likely to be cut up than converted to MoW.

Ron Merrick


Photo: OR&N Boxcar 5060 (1902)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: OR&N Boxcar 5060 (1902)

Photo from the University of Oregon Libraries:

https://oregondigital.org/catalog/oregondigital:df711c688

End view. Photo can be enlarged.

From Wikipedia:

“The Oregon Railroad and Navigation Company (OR&N) was a railroad that operated a rail network of 1,143 miles running east from Portland, Oregon, United States, to northeastern Oregon, northeastern Washington, and northern Idaho. It operated from 1896 as a consolidation of several smaller railroads.

OR&N was initially operated as an independent carrier, but Union Pacific purchased a majority stake in the line in 1898. It became a subsidiary of UP titled the Oregon–Washington Railroad and Navigation Company in 1910. In 1936, Union Pacific formally absorbed the system, which became UP's gateway to the Pacific Northwest.”

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Accurail MKT 36’ boxcar

lrkdbn
 

I'd like to draw attention to the ACF design underframe with the exposed channel cross bearers-basically the same as the ART reefer in another recent post on this site. ACF used this design a lot in the 1910-25 period.
Larry King


Re: Photo: ART Reefer 13660 (Undated)

lrkdbn
 

This car was an ART design built about 1912-14. by ACF . The shorter door was common on cars of this vintage-consider PFE R_30-5 or 6 as built. There seems to have been a trend around or just after WW1
towards taller doors on reefers at least in the produce trade. The 1922 CBD p.222 has drawings of this car with the original wood roof, and Westerfield has a kit.
Larry King


Re: Photo: Standard Coal Company Box Car Unloader (1914)

Todd Sullivan
 

Bruce,

Most certainly coal would freeze in the winter if the loaded open-topped coal cars were snowed on or were subjected to other winter precipitation that froze in the loads.

Back in the 1980s and 1990s, I visited the Reading's two largest anthracite breakers, one at Locust Summit, PA and the other at St. Nicholas.  Both  were shut down in the late 1950s or early 1960s, but both were mostly complete when I visited them.  The  St. Nicholas breaker had a complex set of tracks that allowed unprocessed anthracite from mines to be hauled up a creek valley above the breaker and thawing sheds.  In the winter, frozen coal loads could be dropped down from the uppermost yard to the thawing sheds.  The thawing sheds had 6 tracks and probably could hold six to eight 33ft twin hoppers per track.  They were enclosed by doors on each end and steam heated.  After thawing, each car was dropped down to the scale track and weighed (minus the weight of most of the snow and ice), and then dropped down further to the dumping spot.  The anthracite was taken by conveyor to the top of the breaker, which was six stories tall, and then processed through slate-picking to remove slate and rocks, then crushing and washing, and finally graded for size and reloaded into hoppers that had come through the whole process above the breaker.  After loading, the cars were weighed again, then classified into outbound trains.  For years, I thought and planned to build a smallish layout based on the St Nicholas breaker operation, but I never got to the point of building anything.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Photo: Gondolas With Structures For Hoover Dam (Circa 1930-1935)

Jack Mullen
 

As Bruce said, they're idlers. The girders are a bit longer than the cars' I.L.  Note that the gons each have an open drop end facing the adjacent flat. The cars are in groups of three, two gons with open ends facing opposite directions with a flat between, making efficient use of idlers.

Jack Mullen


Re: Photo: Standard Coal Company Box Car Unloader (1914)

Bruce Hendrick
 

Thanks to all for the additional information. I was surprised that coal freezing was an issue. I would have thought a winter’s supply of coal would be in place long before the harsh weather

I certainly know of similar tight-bottom hopper operations but hadn’t heard of these unloaders for boxcars as described by the other Bruce I would imagine the tilting back & forth to get coal to pour out an open door would create great wear & tear on the cars.

Thanks again,

Bruce Hendrick


Re: Photo: Standard Coal Company Box Car Unloader (1914)

Eric Hansmann
 

I wonder how many box car doors came off their track while rocking on these type of unloaders. I often come across photos and damage reports on door issues in the pre-1930 decades. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On Jun 9, 2022, at 3:16 PM, Douglas Harding <iowacentralrr@...> wrote:

During the steam era most roads west of the Mississippi preferred gons over open hoppers for coal. In winter months they used boxcars, esp the northern roads, to prevent rain/snow freezing the coal. Boxcar loaders were used for loading. 
There was a company in Ottumwa Iowa (heart of Iowa coal country) that made boxcar loaders and unloaders. 
IH also made a loader.
Of course labor was cheap in those days, so laborers with shovels were also common.

Photos attached.

Doug Harding
Youtube: Douglas Harding Iowa Central Railroad


Re: T&P 1937 AAR boxcars

Richard Remiarz
 

I have received color photos from a number of list members and was reminded of the color photo of one of these cars in RPCyc Volume 3 (along with paint formulas for T&P).  Thank you.

 

Of course, the more you learn the less you know.  The cars were built with wooden running boards and Youngstown doors with Union Duplex fixtures.  However, all of the photos I received of the cars repainted in the 1950s show replacement 5-panel Superior doors and steel running boards, and 6 of the 7 cars show a reinforcement plate on the lower left side of the door. 

 

Based on these photos it looks like I may need to change running boards and add a Superior door, leaving the Union Duplex fixture mini-kit for another project.

 

This leads to two questions.

 

Did all of the cars have their doors replaced with Superior doors by the mid-50s?

 

What type of steel running boards were used?

 

Thanks again for everyone’s help.

 

Rich Remiarz

Vadnais Heights, MN

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Rich Remiarz
Sent: Thursday, June 9, 2022 10:42 AM
To: realstmfc@groups.io
Subject: T&P 1937 AAR boxcars

 

Greetings,

 

I am looking for some help.  I am building a model of a Texas & Pacific 1937 AAR boxcar using a National Scale Car MK102 mini-kit.  I will be lettering the car as it would appear in the mid-50s with the T&P herald.  What shade of red were T&P boxcars in the 1950’s?  Thank you for your help.

 

Sincerely,

Rich Remiarz

Vadnais Heights, MN

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

 


Re: Photo: Standard Coal Company Box Car Unloader (1914)

Bruce Smith
 

Bruce,

To further clarify,
No, the cars have roofs and are not top loaded. They are loaded through the doors. There appears to be some wood cooperage, similar to grain doors, present in the door opening. These would likely be removed once the car was situated on the unloader.

No, the car is not unloaded by its end. It is unloaded through the doors. The unloader, in tilting the car up, moves the load from the end to the middle of the car. Many unloaders also tilted side to side, allowing a door to be on the low side and cargo to run out. Then the other end of the car would be lifted, allowing the cargo from that end out. It might require a couple of cycles of tipping to mostly empty a car, which could have the final residue removed by hand, but it sure beat moving it all by hand!

Advantages over open top hoppers:
1. You own a boxcar and it is handy. Western roads did not own a lot of open hoppers
2. The load is protected from the weather (especially important for loads like grain, but also for some loads of coal

Definitely not "experimental". Multiple large scale commercial manufacturers offered such equipment.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


On 6/9/22, 2:50 PM, "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io on behalf of Bruce Hendrick" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io on behalf of brucehendrick@...> wrote:

CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

Does anyone know the specifics of this operation? Were these special boxcars with top loading capabilities? Is the car being unloaded via its end?

I can’t see how anyone would think this would be an improvement over using a standard open top hopper. Perhaps this was an experimental operation?

Thanks,

Bruce Hendrick
Brea, California


Re: Photo: Gondolas With Structures For Hoover Dam (Circa 1930-1935)

Charlie Duckworth
 

I’m only guessing but the empty flat cars may have been used to better distribute the weight of the steel structures going over a bridge. 
--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


Re: Photo: Gondolas With Structures For Hoover Dam (Circa 1930-1935)

Bruce Smith
 

Andy,

They are idlers, used because the loads overlap one end of the gondolas.

 

Regards,

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Andy Jackson <lajrmdlr@...>
Reply-To: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 4:06 PM
To: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Gondolas With Structures For Hoover Dam (Circa 1930-1935)

 

CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

We’re the empty flat cars used for more braking?

Andy Andy Jackson

Santa Fe Springs CA

 


Re: Photo: Gondolas With Structures For Hoover Dam (Circa 1930-1935)

 

We’re the empty flat cars used for more braking?

Andy Andy Jackson
Santa Fe Springs CA


Re: MoW camp cars (was Accurail

Jason P
 

Dennis,
Thank you for the reply. That is good information to know about the siding. As far as windows on camp cars, my personal favorite are the exterior sliding windows with the screens placed over the entire sliding track such as this GM&O camp car 67013 but to my knowledge nobody makes commercially like that. I suppose the closest bet would be to use one of the inner sashes from the Tichy window and build up the sliding track with strip. My suspicion is that this car was a former M&O boxcar built to the same plans as the Southern Rwy 36ft SU class boxcars. Supposedly it was rebuilt from boxcar #2943. M&O was previously under Southern Rwy control before the 1940 merger that created the GM&O. As such there was a fair number of steam locomotives, freight cars, and passenger cars on the M&O roster that definitely had the "Southern" touch.

-Jason 

On 06/09/2022 11:10 AM Dennis Storzek <dennis@...> wrote:


On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 08:31 PM, Jason P wrote:
Dennis,
Thank you for your reply! I figured it was a long shot but thought I'd at least ask. I don't know of any of those kits available locally to get a close-up look but it appears the doors are molded into the shell meaning they would have to be cut out and partially filled in to install a man door for a camp car. If so, I assume the only way to get a good match on filling in the door opening would be to cut up the sides of another donor body. I'm not sure if the Evergreen car siding would be close enough or not. Are the 40ft reefer sides sold on the parts page tooled o have the same board profile as the 36ft double sheathed boxcars?
Actually, since I liked the look of the Evergreen car siding and the grooves are almost exact scale, I used the same dimensions, so the Evergreen product should match quite well. Anyway, if it looks like a patch, it would have been a patch on the full size car, so this is actually good.

The Tichy and Grandt Line outfit car windows are all small, to fit between the posts and braces, which are obvious on a single sheathed car, but remember, the double sheathed cars had the same structure in their walls. Railroad shops typically didn't like to remove or cut structural members and weaken the car.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Photo: Watermelons In Livestock Car (Undated)

Dave Nelson
 

In 1956, on the Rio Grande, 51% of all livestock carloadings occurred in the 8 weeks of September and October.  On contrast, only 4% occurred in the 8 weeks of June and July.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2022 3:15 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Watermelons In Livestock Car (Undated)

 


Before the days of feed lots, cattle and sheep would be moved to take advantage
of seasonal pastures. So not all movements were to stock yards for sale, or from the
stock yards to slaughterhouses. So yes, in many places, cattle shipments were highly
seasonal. Feed lots and close by slaughterhouses changed the meat packing industry
dramatically after the 1950's.

Tim O'Connor


On 6/8/2022 3:50 PM, Ted Larson via groups.io wrote:

Does that suggest that cattle shipments were seasonal?
Ted Larson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

3921 - 3940 of 197075