Date   

Re: Vallejo Paint Equivalent For PFE Orange (more)

Nelson Moyer
 

Thanks, Tony.

Richard is reported to have said that SFRD was close to PRE for the orange. Steve Sandifer sent the CMYK and Pantone numbers for SFRD orange from the ATSF paint and lettering book, and I had color swatches printed on a color calibrated printer. The results were surprising, as there was considerable difference between the two, with the Pantone swatch redder and darker. I attached the file. I used the CMYK numbers as a starting place to match using RGB, since I don't have a graphics program that supports Pantone or CMYK, and then did a series of fades and color photo color sampling. Those files are attached. I have four SFRD reefers to paint, and I haven't decided which fades to use, but I intend to paint them with different mixes. I'm open to suggestions from the group.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2022 2:22 PM
To: Espee@groups.io; main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Vallejo Paint Equivalent For PFE Orange (more)

As mentioned yesterday, I have posted some additional comments about PFE orange, in prototype and model form, in my blog. If you’re interested, the link is below.

https://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2022/06/pfe-orange-one-more-time.html

Tony Thompson
tony@...


Re: Vallejo Paint Equivalent For PFE Orange (more)

Robert kirkham
 

Nice write up Tony - i hadn’t appreciated the modeller’s use of the drift cards in the PFE book (where you describe how they bleed to the edge of the page). A very useful idea.

Rob

On Jun 26, 2022, at 12:21 PM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

As mentioned yesterday, I have posted some additional comments about PFE orange, in prototype and model form, in my blog. If you’re interested, the link is below.

https://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2022/06/pfe-orange-one-more-time.html

Tony Thompson
tony@...


Re: New member checking in

Dave Nelson
 

Bruce is correct.  If you dig into the archives you will find plenty of discussion on this topic.  I don’t recall now when I first posted about it; Tim Gilbert joined in shortly afterwards and wrote far more extensively that I did.

 

The “rule” we advocated was an even distribution of box and flat cars on mainline routes from around the start of WWII to sometime in the 50’s.  By even distribution I mean numbers proportionate with the ownership numbers from each road.

 

For my part I tallied over 1000 foreign road boxcars on a mainline in North Carolina from wheel reports. The sum of each foreign road was sorted highest to lowest and then compared to an ordered list of road names showing their total numbers of boxcars.  The two ordered lists matched up well down the list, finally pulling away from each other (IIRC) down in the 1% and less totals.  I then compared the percentages and with one or two very minor exceptions they too matched.

 

There was no data available to me from before WWII or after the mid 50’s, nort was there any data for way out in the boonies branch lines so the rule is qualified accordingly.  Additionally, I have examined urban traffic and was surprised that the number of house cars were much less than I expected. I do not know if that was a unique case but it does occur to me that with a large flow of inbound boxcars there might be very little need for roads to hang on to home road cars for protective service.  The opposite may well be true for very far out in the boonies, low traffic locations – few inbounds might mean more home road cars are needed for protection.  Both of those opinions could be useful to hobbyists.


As for the data I had, for example, running east out of Knoxville TN there were just as many SP, ATSF, and GN boxcars spotted as their ownership percent of the national fleet suggested would be seen.  If regional weighting was present that would not have been the case. So let’s dismiss the Kalmbach “theory” of regional effects.

 

Tim Gilbert’s research showed the same was true for flat cars.

 

Looking at the data there I could find  no such relationship for any other type of cars and that sounds right because many of those cars either did not leave home rails or if they did the numbers were quite small.  Consider stock cars: Texas was the state that provided California more cattle than any other state – and it’s a decently long run.  The problem is both SP and ATSF do all the way between those two points so those cars never had to leave home rails. 

 

Another example: There is photo evidence of NW hoppers in Indiana and MP hoppers in Utah. Turns out this was low volume shipments of coking coal headed to steel mills.  They were on a regular circuit and so unlike box and flat cars they did not wander about to be spotted off that circuit… they were simply out and back loads.  Almost all tank cars were on a steady circuit between two locations… no wandering.  Reefers did wander… but the available data is not large enough to draw a good conclusion.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2022 12:12 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] New member checking in

 

Ted,

 

 

The bottom line is that several extensive analyses, across much of the country, show that non-home road boxcars appear, over time, and many trains, in approximately their proportion of the national fleet. Yes, there are lots of exceptions, for example trains specifically designed to interchange with another road will be biased to that road (but other trains will have proportionally fewer of the same road), and branches with focused traffic, especially when those cars are in pools will be biased to the pool members, but for a general pool of cars, the best data to date says that the national poll percentage will produce the best results. There are and should be more PRR boxcars than SP boxcars on the Northern Pacific. 


Re: USAX 11225 Questions

Bruce Smith
 

Tim,

From the AC&F book by Ed Kaminski, a sister car, SHPX 17561, 2/16/43, the right end stencil reads:

FOR LIQUIDS NOT OVER
8 LBS PER GAL. MAX. VAPOR
PRESSURE 16 LBS. P.S.I.  (might be 15, not 16)
ABSOLUTE 100 F.
EMERGENCY USG-A
A.C.&F. CO.
2-9-43
(handrail)
SAFETY VALVES 25 LBS. (might be 29?)
TANK 80(??) LBS.
TESTED 2-9-43
AT MILTON PA.
BY AC&F CO.
BUILT 2-43

And yes, it does really say LBS. P.S.I., lettering courtesy of the department of redundancy department.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2022 10:35 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] USAX 11225 Questions
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

I don't see an ICC class in this 1942 builder photo but there is an "EMERGENCY" in
small letters, followed by what looks like x15A ? ( 115A? or something else? )


On 6/13/2022 7:43 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:
IIRC, these cars were also ICC Class 102, instead of the typical class 103 of the era.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


This was a temporary relaxation of tank car construction standards in 1942 for the purpose of building up a fleet of cars to haul crude oil and gasoline until new pipelines could be built to handle the load. Their primary distinguishing trait was  the use of 4-course tank shells.

David Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Vallejo Paint Equivalent For PFE Orange (more)

Tony Thompson
 

As mentioned yesterday, I have posted some additional comments about PFE orange, in prototype and model form, in my blog. If you’re interested, the link is below.

https://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2022/06/pfe-orange-one-more-time.html

Tony Thompson
tony@...


Re: Vallejo equivalent for PFE orange?

Robert kirkham
 

Thanks for posting this Bob; i’m not on the ESPEE group.   In terms of colour matching, i see what Tony was saying.  

That said, looking at colour images from back in the day, i’ll be trying to achieve something much more faded and worn out, as shown in the video i posted earlier.  Maybe not “school bus yellow”, as i can see orange on most of the obviously PFE cars in the train, but it's subtle.

Rob   

On Jun 26, 2022, at 9:44 AM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:

Tony Thompson commented on this on the ESPEE group:
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Vallejo equivalent for PFE orange?

Bob Chaparro
 

Tony Thompson commented on this on the ESPEE group:

https://groups.io/g/Espee/topic/91988434

https://groups.io/g/Espee/message/115741

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: USAX 11225 Questions

Tim O'Connor
 


I don't see an ICC class in this 1942 builder photo but there is an "EMERGENCY" in
small letters, followed by what looks like x15A ? ( 115A? or something else? )


On 6/13/2022 7:43 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:

IIRC, these cars were also ICC Class 102, instead of the typical class 103 of the era.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


This was a temporary relaxation of tank car construction standards in 1942 for the purpose of building up a fleet of cars to haul crude oil and gasoline until new pipelines could be built to handle the load. Their primary distinguishing trait was  the use of 4-course tank shells.

David Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: New member checking in

Ted Larson
 

in answer to the question, 
Not referring to regional cars like coal hoppers.
My comment was in reply to the context of the preceding note, general purpose freight cars, 
And yes, my comment is strictly from my personal experience/observation, both past and present, from living out east, central, and out west.  
But yes, each person should do what they personally observe or like.  




--
Ted Larson
Trainweb.org/MHRR   ---   GN in 1965   ---   NASG.org 


PFE 1940s - Youtube video creator/era/date?

Robert kirkham
 

Looking for more colour images of freight cars, and this film looked useful for immediate post-WWII PFE reefers starting at 5:29:

1940’S SILENT HOME MOVIE TRIP TO PHOENIX BILTMORE HOTEL, NOGALES AND PICACHO PEAK, ARIZONA 33544


Probably a long shot but i wondered if it is possible to identify the photographer and approx date.

The first car in the train i’d guess is Western Pacific (logo isn’t 100% clear).  
The second has the diagonal “overland” slogan on coloured UP shield, descending left to right.  
Third car is not PFE.  
Fourth and subsequent cars are not profiled enough to make out very well.  However, seconds later, looking at the train from more distance, it is a long string of cars and i would say at least a couple have the black and white SP logo alone on one side.   
(I was not able to say whether any of the UP shields were in black and white only - the light in the image is so bright, i can accept they may be blue, red and white.)

I’d guess there is a returning soldier shown toward the end of the non-train portion, but i doubt that helps with year the film was made.

Anyhow, maybe more informed eyes than mine can narrow the dates.      

Rob


Re: InterMountain C&O 1937 boxcar with Deco Ends

Charlie Duckworth
 

Bill
You have a great sense of humor….

While the AK water color pencils can be dipped in water I also just draw with them as a normal colored pencil but the lead is softer and allows you to blend it.  I bought the rust color set but haven’t had them that long so I haven’t really mastered the heavy rust you see on some cars.  As others have commented there’s a lot of weathering techniques done by the 1/35 armor modelers that are museum quality and that’s were I get many of my ideas in doing our HO freight cars.  
--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


Re: Tru-Color Primer Questions

Kevin Macomber
 

One of the things I have observed over the years is modelers use what they feel comfortable with. This is how we became the largest reseller of out of production paint in the US with typically about 8500-9000 bottles of paint on the shelf.

-K

On 2022-06-25 19:51, Ken Adams wrote:
Kevin
I would beg to disagree about Tamiya nozzles. The nozzle question has
been debated over and over again in non-model railroad modeling
forums. There has also been a proliferation of proprietary paint
system nozzles. Some work. Some don't.
Also, for a variety of reasons including health I do not use an
airbrush unless there is absolutely no other alternative. Brush-able
acrylics have allowed me to continue model building in model
railroading as a hobby. I have and have had many airbrushes over the
last 67 years I have been a modeler. I don't particularly care to use
them and am able to get most satisfactory results in the same manner
as the pre-1950's prototype usually did, by hand brushing. When I need
to use a rattle can I go out on my townhouse deck and brave the
prevailing wind primarily for primer coats.
And in most cases regardless of the primer I and many others will be
brush painting the top coat with an acrylic such as from Vallejo, AK
or one of the other brands favored by vehicle, armor and war game
modelers. Many other model railroaders are now discovering that
brushing is a fast simple alternative for painting rolling stock and
structures.
I have tried Tru-Color brushable paints and unfortunately found they
did not match the European brands such as Vallejo and AK in leveling
ability to eliminate brush stroke marks and single coat coverage. The
long gone Polly Scale was thicker and used to work but in some cases
left brush marks. I used to use it primarily on structures.
--
Ken Adams
Omicron BA2.2 may come and go but I still live mostly in splendid
Shelter In Place solitude
Location: About half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io
Links:
------
[1] https://RealSTMFC.groups.io/g/main/message/193523
[2] https://groups.io/mt/91992102/645454
[3] https://RealSTMFC.groups.io/g/main/post
[4] https://RealSTMFC.groups.io/g/main/editsub/645454
[5] https://RealSTMFC.groups.io/g/main/leave/11334620/645454/765963421/xyzzy
--
Kevin Macomber
NGMC
(717) 474-8399
www.narrowgaugemodeling.com


Re: Tru-Color Primer Questions

Ken Adams
 

Kevin

I would beg to disagree about Tamiya nozzles.  The nozzle question has been debated over and over again in non-model railroad modeling forums. There has also been a proliferation of proprietary paint system nozzles.  Some work.  Some don't. 

Also, for a variety of reasons including health I do not use an airbrush unless there is absolutely no other alternative. Brush-able acrylics have allowed me to continue model building in model railroading as a hobby. I have and have had many airbrushes over the last 67 years I have been a modeler. I don't particularly care to use them and am able to get most satisfactory results in the same manner as the pre-1950's prototype usually did, by hand brushing. When I need to use a rattle can I go out on my townhouse deck and brave the prevailing wind primarily for primer coats.

And in most cases regardless of the primer I and many others will be brush painting the top coat with an acrylic such as from Vallejo, AK or one of the other brands favored by vehicle, armor and war game modelers. Many other model railroaders are now discovering that brushing is a fast simple alternative for painting rolling stock and structures.

I have tried Tru-Color brushable paints and unfortunately found they did not match the European brands such as Vallejo and AK in leveling ability to eliminate brush stroke marks and single coat coverage.  The long gone Polly Scale was thicker and used to work but in some cases left brush marks. I used to use it primarily on structures.
--
Ken Adams
Omicron BA2.2 may come and go but I still live mostly in splendid Shelter In Place solitude
Location: About half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: InterMountain C&O 1937 boxcar with Deco Ends

akerboomk
 

RE: John Henning photo door
Looks to me like it is BCR + someone over-did the rust effects...
--
Ken Akerboom


Re: Lettering removal proto 2000 hoppers

Ted Larson
 

This comes to me with high recommendation for lettering removal.  



--
Ted Larson
Trainweb.org/MHRR   ---   GN in 1965   ---   NASG.org 


Re: Tru-Color Primer Questions

Kevin Macomber
 

They are industry standard nozzles, but my recommendation is to use the primer in the bottle and use your airbrush. I think there is better control of thin coats.

Tru-Color is made by them.

More importantly do not mix brands of paint. If your top coat is TC, your primer should be TC. I sell a great deal of their paint and spent time addressing the differences as many of my customers still use Floquil. If you use the same approaches as other paints, you will not get the best results.

Here are some details I have posted.
https://www.narrowgaugemodeling.com/tru-color-paint/

Kevin
NGMC

On 2022-06-25 17:20, Ken Adams wrote:
I was going through the paint section in my local hobby shop and I
came upon a rattle can of TCP-4011 Dark Primer. This was new to me as
I had no previous knowledge that TCP was making any primers. My
standard has been the Tamiya series of surface primers which have
worked well for the last 10 years for me.
Has anyone had relatable experience with the Tru-Color primers and
TCP-4011 Dark Primer in particular. Does it have as good a spray
nozzle as the very reliable Tamiya fine spray products. Does it coat
well on a single pass over raw grey plastic models? Is the spray at
least as fine as the Tamiya primers? The LHS clerk thought it is an
even finer spray than the Tamiya primers.
Does anyone know the provenance of the Tamiya spray can primers. On
the Can it says it is made for manufactured for Tru-Color Paint but no
actual location of manufacture is indicated. Is it truly a US/North
American manufactured product. Of course I know very well that Tamiya
is Japanese in origin and with recent problems with
international/intercontinental supply chains I am always anxious to
develop US/North American product sources whenever possible even if
just as a backup.
Looking forward to answers from other modelers who have actually tried
the Tru-Color rattle can primer product.
--
Ken Adams
Omicron BA2.2 may come and go but I still live mostly in splendid
Shelter In Place solitude
Location: About half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io
Links:
------
[1] https://RealSTMFC.groups.io/g/main/message/193518
[2] https://groups.io/mt/91992102/645454
[3] https://RealSTMFC.groups.io/g/main/post
[4] https://RealSTMFC.groups.io/g/main/editsub/645454
[5] https://RealSTMFC.groups.io/g/main/leave/11334620/645454/765963421/xyzzy
--
Kevin Macomber
NGMC
(717) 474-8399
www.narrowgaugemodeling.com


Re: InterMountain C&O 1937 boxcar with Deco Ends

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

Charlie is right at the top of my weathering heros list and I hang on his every word.  There are a wide variety of weathering pencils out there and I think that I have bought most of them.  I just came across a set of Conti pencils which I bought years ago after an article in RMC touted using pencils.  The key is to try different products and find what you are comfortable with.  

I thought that the AK pencils were a water color product that you moistened to use.  I may have these confused with another new product on the market.

Incidently Charlie is in good company on my hero list which includes Armoldd Swartzenegger, John Cena and Clint Eastwood.

Bill Pardie



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


Tru-Color Primer Questions

Ken Adams
 

I was going through the paint section in my local hobby shop and I came upon a rattle can of TCP-4011 Dark Primer.  This was new to me as I had no previous knowledge that TCP was making any primers. My standard has been the Tamiya series of surface primers which have worked well for the last 10 years for me. 

Has anyone had relatable experience with the Tru-Color primers and TCP-4011 Dark Primer in particular. Does it have as good a spray nozzle as the very reliable Tamiya fine spray products.  Does it coat well on a single pass over raw grey plastic models? Is the spray at least as fine as the Tamiya primers? The LHS clerk thought it is an even finer spray than the Tamiya primers. 

Does anyone know the provenance of the Tamiya spray can primers. On the Can it says it is made for manufactured for Tru-Color Paint but no actual location of manufacture is indicated.  Is it truly a US/North American manufactured product.  Of course I know very well that Tamiya is Japanese in origin and with recent problems with international/intercontinental supply chains I am always anxious to develop US/North American product sources whenever possible even if just as a backup. 

Looking forward to answers from other modelers who have actually tried the Tru-Color rattle can primer product.
--
Ken Adams
Omicron BA2.2 may come and go but I still live mostly in splendid Shelter In Place solitude
Location: About half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: InterMountain C&O 1937 boxcar with Deco Ends

Curt Fortenberry
 


I would suggest getting a color wheel.  It would help decide colors, tones, shades, etc.

Curt Fortenberry 


Re: Vallejo equivalent for PFE orange?

Robert kirkham
 

i’ll give it a look.  Thanks for the suggestion Andy

On Jun 25, 2022, at 1:14 PM, Andy Jackson <lajrmdlr@...> wrote:

=ob
Have you looked at Tru Color Paints PFE orange? They offer a few different shades of that orange.
Andy Jackson

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