Date   

Re: Photo: Railroad Yards - Minneapolis, Minnesota (1939)

Tim O'Connor
 


Soo Line on the left, CStPM&O on the right.

On 6/21/2022 12:54 PM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io wrote:

Photo: Railroad Yards - Minneapolis, Minnesota (1939)

Photo from the Library of Congress:

https://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2017718495/resource/

Good assortment of period freight cars.
Bob Chaparro



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Westerfield USRA SS Ann Arbor boxcar

Tim O'Connor
 


did this lettering change come at the behest of the Wabash ?

On 6/21/2022 11:13 AM, Robert kirkham wrote:

Those kits build into a nice looking model. 

The Ann Arbor lettering always seems more modern to my eyes that most of the other lines.  I wonder why they had the large name so early . . .

Rob   

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Thoughts on PFE Orange

Jerry Michels
 

Well said Bill.  Unless there is a reason to reproduce a fleet of freight cars, reefers included, in their as-delivered scheme, the base color is not terribly important.  A spectrum of color representing the effects of weathering produces much more appealing models.  Jerry Michels


Thoughts on PFE Orange

WILLIAM PARDIE
 


Having been a lifelong Southern Pacific modeler I have witnessed  many incarnations of PFE models. Early Silver Streak kits had prepainted sides.  I don't recall anyone questioning the color. Varuous manufacturers of pa
laatic models offered
prepainted models.  An article by Richard Hendrickson on a 1970's Prototyoe Modeler had me carving up a Trains Miniature model .With the advent of the Tichey refers we began to be more sophisticated with our modeling expectations.

In searching my memory bank I recall that at one point Datyight Orange was recommended as the preferred PFE color.  Of course Floquil and Scale coat Daylight Orange are different.  I have settled on Floquil over the years. I'm sure that the Pantone wheel has value but I' sure if some of our top modelers gathered to debate the results it would be difficult to reach agreement.

So what is a modeler to do?   I would suggest that we all select a color that we are comfortable with.
Sihnce most of us weather our models the base color is going to change.  I'm sure that if some of our top modelers bought their PFE models to an RPM meet and created a PFE fruit block we would all be in awe of the train and nobody (well almost nobody) would question the base color.

Bill Pardie



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


Re: PFE 1940s - Youtube video creator/era/date?

Robert kirkham
 

It turns out that my comment about the returning soldier not likely helping with the dating of the video may have been misplaced.  

In a private email, it was suggested that the auto shown might be a 1941 Buick, and the soldier was apparently a corporal in the 5th Army A-5 division that was activated in Morocco in 1943. The A-5 Division returned to the US in September 1945 and was inactivated by October 1945. Assuming the footage was compiled in approximately the order it was filmed, soldiers return and deactivation would suggest a date for the film as late in 1945 or a few months into 1946. Does anyone on the list have further suggestions or comments?

Rob



On Jun 26, 2022, at 12:11 AM, Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

Looking for more colour images of freight cars, and this film looked useful for immediate post-WWII PFE reefers starting at 5:29:

1940’S SILENT HOME MOVIE TRIP TO PHOENIX BILTMORE HOTEL, NOGALES AND PICACHO PEAK, ARIZONA 33544


Probably a long shot but i wondered if it is possible to identify the photographer and approx date.

The first car in the train i’d guess is Western Pacific (logo isn’t 100% clear).  
The second has the diagonal “overland” slogan on coloured UP shield, descending left to right.  
Third car is not PFE.  
Fourth and subsequent cars are not profiled enough to make out very well.  However, seconds later, looking at the train from more distance, it is a long string of cars and i would say at least a couple have the black and white SP logo alone on one side.   
(I was not able to say whether any of the UP shields were in black and white only - the light in the image is so bright, i can accept they may be blue, red and white.)

I’d guess there is a returning soldier shown toward the end of the non-train portion, but i doubt that helps with year the film was made.

Anyhow, maybe more informed eyes than mine can narrow the dates.      

Rob


Re: New member checking in

Craig Wilson
 

On a friend's layout, the focal point was the harbor at Frankfort/Elberta Michigan and car ferry dock/yard there.  He visited there on his sailboat every summer.  He knew little of the railroad beyond that yard and it was populated with freight cars that caught his fancy.  After he became interested in prototype operations we helped him with reworking the layout and changing the freight car fleet to better represent the prototype.  We were fortunate enough to get access to a large volume of the car ferry manifests for his era.  I put all the pages into 3-ring binders for the RR's historical society and as I did so, I kept track of the reporting marks and commodities that went through that yard.  Summary pages were made for each month as shown on the attached sheets.  This particular example is for the connection at Manitowoc Wisconsin so there is a higher proportion of Soo Line and CNW cars.  Other manifest sheets cover the connection at Kewaunee and as expected, there are almost no CNW and Soo Line cars but many GB&W cars.

Having this data showed which railroads were underrepresented in his fleet.  And which cars he should probably dispose of (like the three Intermountain C&IM boxcars - one might be there occasionally but there would never be three of them on that railroad at the same time).  New purchases focused on cars to fill the voids (either RTR or cars that could be painted/lettered for the needed prototypes).  It took a while but I vividly remember the op session where I took a break and sat down in a chair overlooking the yard and remarked to my friend "this is the way I remember this yard looking."  The mix of car types and paint schemes just "looked right."  That is the goal - not specific numbers and mixes of cars - but something you and other people familiar with the railroad will recognize.

Craig Wilson



Re: Vallejo Paint Equivalent For PFE Orange (more)

Tony Thompson
 

Nelson Moyer wrote:

Richard is reported to have said that SFRD was close to PRE for the orange.
I never heard that from him, but will emphasize that he had an excellent eye for color, often effortlessly matching paint on pre-painted models. I watched him do it a couple of times and marveled.
He was quite series about everything Santa Fe, including SFRD of course. The SFRD models of his that I have are not particularly close to PFE orange.

Steve Sandifer sent the CMYK and Pantone numbers for SFRD orange from the ATSF paint and lettering book, and I had color swatches printed on a color calibrated printer. The results were surprising, as there was considerable difference between the two, with the Pantone swatch redder and darker.
Pantone is tough to use for this kind of problem. The Pantone numbers are mixes (in round-number percentages) of standard pigments, and can neither serve as a good way to identify any arbitrary color, nor were they meant to. But if you are going to press and want a specific Pantone somewhere in a publication, the printer can nail it, and will. That’s what they are for.

Tony Thompson
tony@...


Re: PFE orange reefers about 1950

Tony Thompson
 

Ed Mines wrote:

From the color Delano photos it looks like many cars needed a new paint job during WWII. In the above video looks like some of the car have been freshly painted.

Tony, did car washing/repainting stop during WWII? 

I’m sure it did in general. For PFE, the shop data exist at CSRM., and I have tabulated all of it. For World War II, PFE continued to paint about three-fourths as many cars as in years right before the war and right after — but they had a big rebuilding program (with the blessing of the War Production Board), and those rebuilds were most of the totals. Washing was well down, like a third of what was done before the war.

Tony Thompson




Re: Vallejo Paint Equivalent For PFE Orange (more)

Tony Thompson
 

Ro Kirkham wrote:

Nice write up Tony - i hadn’t appreciated the modeller’s use of the drift cards in the PFE book (where you describe how they bleed to the edge of the page). A very useful idea.
You’re welcome, Rob. We definitely had that idea in mind. Tony


Re: USAX 11225 Questions

Chris Barkan
 


Lettered on the right side of the tank is EMERGENCY USGA AC&F CO, .and the built date of 10-42. What is EMERGENCY USGA?

This was a temporary relaxation of tank car construction standards in 1942 for the purpose of building up a fleet of cars to haul crude oil and gasoline until new pipelines could be built to handle the load. Their primary distinguishing trait was  the use of 4-course tank shells.
 
David Thompson

I am away from most of my reference sources so I cannot check on this, but my recollection is that these emergency cars were constructed of thinner steel plate, thereby conserving material for the war effort.  This is the explanation for the lower safety valve and tank pressure ratings than normal.
-- 
Chris Barkan
Deerfield, MA


USAX 11225 Questions

David
 

Here's a high-res view of USQX 11200:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/49619388297/in/album-72157649155982802/

and SHPX 17520 for comparison:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/49619124151/in/album-72157649155982802/

The safety valves are 25 pounds and the tank is 60 pounds.

David Thompson


Reefers in Mid WWII film footage

Robert kirkham
 

I am watching more mid-WWII videos on you tube, and made notes of the reefers in the film “LIFE LINE OF THE NATION AMERICAN RAILROADS IN WWII Carl Dudley 70892”, at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THN9x1FNahQ .   

(It has remarkable colour footage of a lot of other rolling stock, btw - a feast for weathering ideas for wood sheathed cars especially, but plenty on hoppers, gons, flats, stock and UTLX & other tank cars too).  What strikes me about this footage is how much of it was filmed at similar locations as the Library of Congress collection of colour photos of Delano, Vachon and others.  I suspect they travelled together some of the time?  

For reefers:

The first glimpse is at 1:03 in the film, where the plume of smoke from the loco partially obscures a block of reefers starting with a yellow car, a white car and a PFE orange car.  You have to be quick with the pause button to see these.  The SP medallion on the PFE reefer is briefly visible.  I find this a useful reference when thinking
how the cars should look in comparison to each other.
  

At 1:41 there is a mid-train reefer block, but the blue light of daylight on snow makes it difficult to discern much about the cars in the train.

At 1:57 there is (guessing) a PFE reefer behind the locomotive, without medallions.  Express paint and lettering?

At 2:12 there is a distant view of a PFE car approaching (right behind the loco tender); we also have a view of the trailing end at 2:20.   It's lettered with the Red White and Blue UP “overland” medallion and apparently shot mid WWII.   The roof is clearly boxcar red/brown but, strangely, appearances/optical illusion(?) suggests the car has black ends.   


Maybe there is a hint of boxcar red on the ends?  But i do not see it.  This runs against what i have read from authoritative researchers, so i chalk it up to illusion for now.

Next up, at 6:49, there is a drab yellow reefer - i cannot make out the lettering, but i suspect others will find it obvious.

A cleaner ART 20836 is featured loading onions at 7:17:


The colour of the ART reefer featured at 11:35 - 11:52 is great fodder for weathering.
At 12:06 we have nice footage of a clean looking SFRD 34058 (number somewhat illegible).  At 12:32, another nice clean shot of an SFRD car, this time 33614.
  


At 13:29 we get a nice clip of URTX 9809 with Milwaukee logo.  
 

Rob


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Nelson Moyer
 

Bill, we’ve talked about Harvest Yellow before, and I’ve compared it to the SFRD paint and lettering guide recommendation, and it’s far too yellow. Look at my attachments and compare them to Harvest Yellow. That’s what started me on the quest of find a better paint color or mix. Just because something is long standing, doesn’t mean it’s correct.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of WILLIAM PARDIE
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2022 5:59 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

 

 

The long standing paint for Santa Fe refers has been ACCUPAINT New Haven Harvest Yellow.  Tru Color now has this paint in their line.

 

The attached were done with the original Accu Paint.

 

Bill Pardie

 

 

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 


Re: Photo: Tonopah & Tidewater Boxcar 130 (1940)

Tim O'Connor
 

Photo: Tonopah & Tidewater Boxcar 130 (1940)

Photos from the University of Nevada, Las Vegas

https://special.library.unlv.edu/ark:/62930/d1jm23m03

Photo can be enlarged.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

WILLIAM PARDIE
 


The long standing paint for Santa Fe refers has been ACCUPAINT New Haven Harvest Yellow.  Tru Color now has this paint in their line.

The attached were done with the original Accu Paint.

Bill Pardie


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


PFE orange reefers about 1950

ed_mines
 

There's a nice color video on you tube about dieselization on the New Haven taken around 1950 which includes some PFE reefers.
The particular portion of the NH was the one coming from Maybrook where NH interchanged with Erie.
From the color Delano photos it looks like many cars needed a new paint job during WWII. In the above video looks like some of the car have been freshly painted.
Tony, did car washing/repainting stop during WWII? 
 


Re: Vallejo Paint Equivalent For PFE Orange (more)

Nelson Moyer
 

Thanks, Tony.

Richard is reported to have said that SFRD was close to PRE for the orange. Steve Sandifer sent the CMYK and Pantone numbers for SFRD orange from the ATSF paint and lettering book, and I had color swatches printed on a color calibrated printer. The results were surprising, as there was considerable difference between the two, with the Pantone swatch redder and darker. I attached the file. I used the CMYK numbers as a starting place to match using RGB, since I don't have a graphics program that supports Pantone or CMYK, and then did a series of fades and color photo color sampling. Those files are attached. I have four SFRD reefers to paint, and I haven't decided which fades to use, but I intend to paint them with different mixes. I'm open to suggestions from the group.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2022 2:22 PM
To: Espee@groups.io; main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Vallejo Paint Equivalent For PFE Orange (more)

As mentioned yesterday, I have posted some additional comments about PFE orange, in prototype and model form, in my blog. If you’re interested, the link is below.

https://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2022/06/pfe-orange-one-more-time.html

Tony Thompson
tony@...


Re: Vallejo Paint Equivalent For PFE Orange (more)

Robert kirkham
 

Nice write up Tony - i hadn’t appreciated the modeller’s use of the drift cards in the PFE book (where you describe how they bleed to the edge of the page). A very useful idea.

Rob

On Jun 26, 2022, at 12:21 PM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

As mentioned yesterday, I have posted some additional comments about PFE orange, in prototype and model form, in my blog. If you’re interested, the link is below.

https://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2022/06/pfe-orange-one-more-time.html

Tony Thompson
tony@...


Re: New member checking in

Dave Nelson
 

Bruce is correct.  If you dig into the archives you will find plenty of discussion on this topic.  I don’t recall now when I first posted about it; Tim Gilbert joined in shortly afterwards and wrote far more extensively that I did.

 

The “rule” we advocated was an even distribution of box and flat cars on mainline routes from around the start of WWII to sometime in the 50’s.  By even distribution I mean numbers proportionate with the ownership numbers from each road.

 

For my part I tallied over 1000 foreign road boxcars on a mainline in North Carolina from wheel reports. The sum of each foreign road was sorted highest to lowest and then compared to an ordered list of road names showing their total numbers of boxcars.  The two ordered lists matched up well down the list, finally pulling away from each other (IIRC) down in the 1% and less totals.  I then compared the percentages and with one or two very minor exceptions they too matched.

 

There was no data available to me from before WWII or after the mid 50’s, nort was there any data for way out in the boonies branch lines so the rule is qualified accordingly.  Additionally, I have examined urban traffic and was surprised that the number of house cars were much less than I expected. I do not know if that was a unique case but it does occur to me that with a large flow of inbound boxcars there might be very little need for roads to hang on to home road cars for protective service.  The opposite may well be true for very far out in the boonies, low traffic locations – few inbounds might mean more home road cars are needed for protection.  Both of those opinions could be useful to hobbyists.


As for the data I had, for example, running east out of Knoxville TN there were just as many SP, ATSF, and GN boxcars spotted as their ownership percent of the national fleet suggested would be seen.  If regional weighting was present that would not have been the case. So let’s dismiss the Kalmbach “theory” of regional effects.

 

Tim Gilbert’s research showed the same was true for flat cars.

 

Looking at the data there I could find  no such relationship for any other type of cars and that sounds right because many of those cars either did not leave home rails or if they did the numbers were quite small.  Consider stock cars: Texas was the state that provided California more cattle than any other state – and it’s a decently long run.  The problem is both SP and ATSF do all the way between those two points so those cars never had to leave home rails. 

 

Another example: There is photo evidence of NW hoppers in Indiana and MP hoppers in Utah. Turns out this was low volume shipments of coking coal headed to steel mills.  They were on a regular circuit and so unlike box and flat cars they did not wander about to be spotted off that circuit… they were simply out and back loads.  Almost all tank cars were on a steady circuit between two locations… no wandering.  Reefers did wander… but the available data is not large enough to draw a good conclusion.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2022 12:12 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] New member checking in

 

Ted,

 

 

The bottom line is that several extensive analyses, across much of the country, show that non-home road boxcars appear, over time, and many trains, in approximately their proportion of the national fleet. Yes, there are lots of exceptions, for example trains specifically designed to interchange with another road will be biased to that road (but other trains will have proportionally fewer of the same road), and branches with focused traffic, especially when those cars are in pools will be biased to the pool members, but for a general pool of cars, the best data to date says that the national poll percentage will produce the best results. There are and should be more PRR boxcars than SP boxcars on the Northern Pacific. 


Re: USAX 11225 Questions

Bruce Smith
 

Tim,

From the AC&F book by Ed Kaminski, a sister car, SHPX 17561, 2/16/43, the right end stencil reads:

FOR LIQUIDS NOT OVER
8 LBS PER GAL. MAX. VAPOR
PRESSURE 16 LBS. P.S.I.  (might be 15, not 16)
ABSOLUTE 100 F.
EMERGENCY USG-A
A.C.&F. CO.
2-9-43
(handrail)
SAFETY VALVES 25 LBS. (might be 29?)
TANK 80(??) LBS.
TESTED 2-9-43
AT MILTON PA.
BY AC&F CO.
BUILT 2-43

And yes, it does really say LBS. P.S.I., lettering courtesy of the department of redundancy department.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2022 10:35 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] USAX 11225 Questions
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

I don't see an ICC class in this 1942 builder photo but there is an "EMERGENCY" in
small letters, followed by what looks like x15A ? ( 115A? or something else? )


On 6/13/2022 7:43 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:
IIRC, these cars were also ICC Class 102, instead of the typical class 103 of the era.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


This was a temporary relaxation of tank car construction standards in 1942 for the purpose of building up a fleet of cars to haul crude oil and gasoline until new pipelines could be built to handle the load. Their primary distinguishing trait was  the use of 4-course tank shells.

David Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

3401 - 3420 of 196837