Date   

Re: Photo: Railroad Yards - Minneapolis, Minnesota (1939)

Gary Wildung
 

Tim
You are right it is the Soo line on the left but it is the NP on the right side .Picture taken looking North from downtown Mpls
Gary

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 10:17 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Railroad Yards - Minneapolis, Minnesota (1939)
 

Soo Line on the left, CStPM&O on the right.

On 6/21/2022 12:54 PM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io wrote:

Photo: Railroad Yards - Minneapolis, Minnesota (1939)

Photo from the Library of Congress:

https://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2017718495/resource/

Good assortment of period freight cars.
Bob Chaparro



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony

An evasion. :-D  Here is a photo I took indoors with a strong incandescent light source.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timboconnor/13252874824/

If you saw this car in daylight, you would say it's another color. If you saw it in fluorescent
light, you'd call it another color. I actually thought I had painted this car to be much too dark
and that is how it looks under normal, weak indoor lights. So I was surprised by the results
after I shot this photo!


Anywho, here is what Richard Hendrickson wrote in May 2008.
==============================================

Ed, in the few surviving color photos from the late '40s and early 
'50s that show numerous SFRD cars in the same train or yard, color 
varies widely, not because the cars were painted differently but 
because of the usual fading, weathering, and accumulations of grime.  
The paint used on the sides of SFRD colors MAY have been lighter and 
more yellow in the 1920s, but it was essentially the same yellow-
orange on all cars from the mid-1930s through the 1950s.  With the 
adoption of the giant herald stenciling scheme beginning in 1959, the 
color seems to have shifted to a more orange shade, but that 
perception depends on the slides/movies you're looking at, and - of 
course - color film reproduction was/is notoriously unreliable as a 
guide to actual colors.  During the period that's relevant to most 
subscribers to this list, the Santa Fe did not change the color of 
the paint used on reefer sides (aside from the usual minor variations 
from one batch of paint to another).

Richard Hendrickson


On 6/27/2022 3:43 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

And again, a poorly lit model. Take that car into bright sunlight, and then tell me what color it is. :-)
I don’t know about you, Tim, but my layout is indoors. Tony


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Nelson Moyer
 

I concur. I mixed Scalecoat II orange to yellow at 4:1 and was shocked at how orange it was. I mixed 3:1, 2:1, 1:1 and all were still too orange to my eye. I then mixed 1:2 and 1:3 orange to yellow, and 1:3 came closest to the ATSF color guide CMYK color recommendation. I didn't do 1:4, so I'll mix that to see hour it looks, as it may be a good fade mix. That's a perfect example for not blindly following earlier recommendations without verification.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pierre Oliver
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 2:31 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

That mix was mentioned in the SFRD reefer book as well However since that was written the recipes at Scalecoat changed I found that reversing the ratios gave the desired results Pierre Oliver www.elgincarshops.com www.yarmouthmodelworks.com


Re: New member checking in

Doug Polinder
 

An AA layout in the early 1970s would be something to see, especially when the predecessors of the BN still showed up in original paint.  Emery Gulash had a nice AA DVD series on Clear Block but the earlier footage filmed in the 1960s with the FAs was shot almost entirely on the south end around Toledo.  The later volumes were filmed more on the north end around 1980 and later and by then the numerous Class Is were starting to disappear in mergers.  

Doug Polinder 
Seguin TX


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Tony Thompson
 

And again, a poorly lit model. Take that car into bright sunlight, and then tell me what color it is. :-)

I don’t know about you, Tim, but my layout is indoors.     Tony


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Tim O'Connor
 


And again, a poorly lit model. Take that car into bright sunlight, and then tell me what color it is. :-)


On 6/27/2022 2:42 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

Attached is a photo of one of Richard’s cars, and it certainly isn’t Harvest Yellow — at least, not the jar I have of that color.

Tony Thompson


Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Pierre Oliver
 

That mix was mentioned in the SFRD reefer book as well
However since that was written the recipes at Scalecoat changed
I found that reversing the ratios gave the desired results
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com

On Jun 27, 2022, at 3:29 PM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:



Fenton Wells wrote:

Thanks Tony, and I apologise for coming in late on this but do you know what color Richard used for the Santa Fe reefers? I have huge respect for his modeling and would love to know his choice of color.
Richard’s view was that the SFRD color was pretty consistent from about 1930 through the late 1950s. His starting point was Scalecoat, 4 parts Reefer Orange and one part Reefer Yellow, a formula from Bill Messecar. He sometimes faded it for older cars, using white. As he observed, “Reefer Orange” is an odd color, not really like any North American reefer, closer to International Orange. But you can mix with it.

Tony Thompson
tony@...







Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Tony Thompson
 

Fenton Wells wrote:

Thanks Tony, and I apologise for coming in late on this but do you know what color Richard used for the Santa Fe reefers? I have huge respect for his modeling and would love to know his choice of color.
Richard’s view was that the SFRD color was pretty consistent from about 1930 through the late 1950s. His starting point was Scalecoat, 4 parts Reefer Orange and one part Reefer Yellow, a formula from Bill Messecar. He sometimes faded it for older cars, using white. As he observed, “Reefer Orange” is an odd color, not really like any North American reefer, closer to International Orange. But you can mix with it.

Tony Thompson
tony@...


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Robert kirkham
 

Thanks for the photos of Richard’s models Tony.  

I don’t have a memory of Richard sharing a lot of photos on email lists like this; my recollection was about the help he provided with model and prototype information - mostly helping someone else’s project.  So it's just awesome that you can share these images.    They speak to me - saying so much about the kind of modelling I want to strive for.

Rob

On Jun 27, 2022, at 11:50 AM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

For completeness, I should mention that the bulk of Richard’s SFRD models were pretty dirty, not like the one I just showed. Below is a more typical example of his view of SFRD appearance. Here Jerry Michel’s comment is VERY relevant.
I should also mention that he worked with Athearn when they did the SFRD frozen food car, Rr-30, IIRC, and it is certainly a light orange.

Tony Thompson




<RR-27.jpg>



Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

O Fenton Wells
 

Thanks Tony, and I apologise for coming in late on this but do you know what color Richard used for the Santa Fe reefers?  I have huge respect for his modeling and would love to know his choice of color.
Thanks
Fenton

On Mon, Jun 27, 2022 at 2:50 PM Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:
For completeness, I should mention that the bulk of Richard’s SFRD models were pretty dirty, not like the one I just showed. Below is a more typical example of his view of SFRD appearance. Here Jerry Michel’s comment is VERY relevant.
I should also mention that he worked with Athearn when they did the SFRD frozen food car, Rr-30, IIRC, and it is certainly a light orange.

Tony Thompson







--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Tony Thompson
 

For completeness, I should mention that the bulk of Richard’s SFRD models were pretty dirty, not like the one I just showed. Below is a more typical example of his view of SFRD appearance. Here Jerry Michel’s comment is VERY relevant.
I should also mention that he worked with Athearn when they did the SFRD frozen food car, Rr-30, IIRC, and it is certainly a light orange.

Tony Thompson






Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Tony Thompson
 

Attached is a photo of one of Richard’s cars, and it certainly isn’t Harvest Yellow — at least, not the jar I have of that color.

Tony Thompson



Re: Thoughts on PFE Orange

Tony Thompson
 

Jerry Michels  wrote:

Unless there is a reason to reproduce a fleet of freight cars, reefers included, in their as-delivered scheme, the base color is not terribly important.  A spectrum of color representing the effects of weathering produces much more appealing models.  

As a general statement about modeling, Jerry, I am in full agreement. But for PFE, since they washed cars frequently, I think the statement needs adjustment. Starting with the “right’ color seems to me a good idea for PFE, though less important for many car owners. 

.Tony Thompson




Re: Reefers in Mid WWII film footage

Todd Sullivan
 

Rob,

The lettering pattern of the reefer at 6:49 indicates it was an FGEX or WFEX reefer.

Todd Sullivan


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Tim O'Connor
 


I forgot to add -- The models are the same color. The difference is lighting.

On 6/27/2022 12:22 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:


Keith Jordan recommended Accupaint MEC Harvest Yellow for SFRD and I really like
the color - close to what Intermountain/Longs put on the SFRD plastic kits for cars a year
or two out of the shop, if not fresh paint.

I've never seen a drift card or sample of the real thing and color photos are all over the place.


On 6/27/2022 12:05 PM, Nelson Moyer wrote:

I’ve been told that SFRD reefer paint was toward the yellow side early and on the orange side later. I’m interested in their appearance circa 1950, where fewer color photos are available.

 

Nelson Moyer



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Robert kirkham
 

very nice models - like that weathering.  Filthy!

Rob

On Jun 27, 2022, at 9:22 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Keith Jordan recommended Accupaint MEC Harvest Yellow for SFRD and I really like
the color - close to what Intermountain/Longs put on the SFRD plastic kits for cars a year
or two out of the shop, if not fresh paint.

I've never seen a drift card or sample of the real thing and color photos are all over the place.


On 6/27/2022 12:05 PM, Nelson Moyer wrote:
I’ve been told that SFRD reefer paint was toward the yellow side early and on the orange side later. I’m interested in their appearance circa 1950, where fewer color photos are available.
 
Nelson Moyer


-- 
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts<model_JIMSIX_sfrd_35896_reefer.jpg><model_INTERMOUNTAIN_sfrd_35768_40ft_reefer_Rr-32_weathered_MichaelGross.jpg>


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Tim O'Connor
 


Keith Jordan recommended Accupaint MEC Harvest Yellow for SFRD and I really like
the color - close to what Intermountain/Longs put on the SFRD plastic kits for cars a year
or two out of the shop, if not fresh paint.

I've never seen a drift card or sample of the real thing and color photos are all over the place.


On 6/27/2022 12:05 PM, Nelson Moyer wrote:

I’ve been told that SFRD reefer paint was toward the yellow side early and on the orange side later. I’m interested in their appearance circa 1950, where fewer color photos are available.

 

Nelson Moyer



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Westerfield USRA SS Ann Arbor boxcar

Robert kirkham
 

I really don’t know, but the resemblance in style makes that a reasonable hypothesis.

Rob

On Jun 27, 2022, at 8:14 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


did this lettering change come at the behest of the Wabash ?

On 6/21/2022 11:13 AM, Robert kirkham wrote:
Those kits build into a nice looking model. 

The Ann Arbor lettering always seems more modern to my eyes that most of the other lines.  I wonder why they had the large name so early . . .

Rob   

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Nelson Moyer
 

I’ve been told that SFRD reefer paint was toward the yellow side early and on the orange side later. I’m interested in their appearance circa 1950, where fewer color photos are available.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 10:46 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

 

Very late in their careers, some of the Santa Fe's ice bunker reefers were painted the same orange usually associated with their later mechanical reefers.
Here is a Chard Walker photo.
Somewhere in my files I have a photo of two Santa Fe ice bunker reefers together, one orange and one yellow.

Bob Chaparro

Moderator

Railroad Citrus Industry Modeling Group

https://groups.io/g/RailroadCitrusIndustryModelingGroup


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Bob Chaparro
 

Very late in their careers, some of the Santa Fe's ice bunker reefers were painted the same orange usually associated with their later mechanical reefers.
Here is a Chard Walker photo.
Somewhere in my files I have a photo of two Santa Fe ice bunker reefers together, one orange and one yellow.

Bob Chaparro

Moderator

Railroad Citrus Industry Modeling Group

https://groups.io/g/RailroadCitrusIndustryModelingGroup

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