Date   

Re: tank car domes

D. Scott Chatfield
 

A rule of thumb is most true domes* had a capacity of roughly 2% of the tank body (and this volume is measured above top dead center of the tank body).  Now you mention earlier tanks seeming to have taller, narrower domes.  Those cars also tended to be smaller in capacity, so they were lower in overall height.  Once you get to the 10,000 gallon tanks, the dome height crowds the height limit for cars of the time, so you have to make it shorter and fatter.

And the problem of overall height kept the maximum size of general service tankcars to about 12,000 gallons until somebody figured out that instead of an expansion dome, just don't fill the car all the way up.  It only took them 70-odd years to figure that out.

Note that at least one tankcar builder (Pennsylvania Tank Car, IIRC) used a dome that was the same diameter as the tank body.  This does gain you some dome volume but at the expense of a weaker tank body.

Also keep in mind that some commodities did not need 2% domes.  Some acids come to mind, so they had skinnier domes.

*Only tankcars that carried liquids needed domes back in the day.  Tankcars for pressurized gases, even those liquified in the process (like propane/LNG), do not have domes.  However, they do have a dome-looking "bonnet" that protects the loading/unloading valves and safety vents.

Scott Chatfield 


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Tim O'Connor
 


which IMO is a good reason to use a faded color that looks as if it is sunlit, under indoor lights :-)


On 6/27/2022 6:01 PM, Steve SANDIFER wrote:

I assume folks realize that ATSF changed their reefer color in 1956 from the yellow orange to a brighter orange. Here is a photo of the original yellow on an Intermountain ice reefer and the color drift card for the new color which Rapido is using on their RR-56 project.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 10:46 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

 

Very late in their careers, some of the Santa Fe's ice bunker reefers were painted the same orange usually associated with their later mechanical reefers.
Here is a Chard Walker photo.
Somewhere in my files I have a photo of two Santa Fe ice bunker reefers together, one orange and one yellow.

Bob Chaparro

Moderator

Railroad Citrus Industry Modeling Group

https://groups.io/g/RailroadCitrusIndustryModelingGroup

Attachments:


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Nelson Moyer
 

The early version is the CMYK chip I posted earlier.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 6:03 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

 

The latest Santa Fe Painting and Lettering Guide says:

 

Reefer Orange (early)

0-43-87-0

PMS 151C

 

Reefer Orange (late) (after 1956)

0-60-94-0

PMS 158C

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 5:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

 

This reefer looks much the same color as those I’ve seen painted with Accupaint Harvest Yellow and the photos Bill Pardie posted. I’m going to color sample your reefer and see how it matches the other colors on my chip file.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 5:01 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

 

I assume folks realize that ATSF changed their reefer color in 1956 from the yellow orange to a brighter orange. Here is a photo of the original yellow on an Intermountain ice reefer and the color drift card for the new color which Rapido is using on their RR-56 project.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Steve SANDIFER
 

The latest Santa Fe Painting and Lettering Guide says:

 

Reefer Orange (early)

0-43-87-0

PMS 151C

 

Reefer Orange (late) (after 1956)

0-60-94-0

PMS 158C

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 5:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

 

This reefer looks much the same color as those I’ve seen painted with Accupaint Harvest Yellow and the photos Bill Pardie posted. I’m going to color sample your reefer and see how it matches the other colors on my chip file.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 5:01 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

 

I assume folks realize that ATSF changed their reefer color in 1956 from the yellow orange to a brighter orange. Here is a photo of the original yellow on an Intermountain ice reefer and the color drift card for the new color which Rapido is using on their RR-56 project.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Nelson Moyer
 

This reefer looks much the same color as those I’ve seen painted with Accupaint Harvest Yellow and the photos Bill Pardie posted. I’m going to color sample your reefer and see how it matches the other colors on my chip file.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 5:01 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

 

I assume folks realize that ATSF changed their reefer color in 1956 from the yellow orange to a brighter orange. Here is a photo of the original yellow on an Intermountain ice reefer and the color drift card for the new color which Rapido is using on their RR-56 project.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Allan Smith
 


Attached are some photos I took of ATSF reefers in a field south of Amarillo in 2009. Notice the difference between the sides and the doors.

Al Smith
Sonora CA
On Monday, June 27, 2022 at 03:01:22 PM PDT, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:


I assume folks realize that ATSF changed their reefer color in 1956 from the yellow orange to a brighter orange. Here is a photo of the original yellow on an Intermountain ice reefer and the color drift card for the new color which Rapido is using on their RR-56 project.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 10:46 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

 

Very late in their careers, some of the Santa Fe's ice bunker reefers were painted the same orange usually associated with their later mechanical reefers.
Here is a Chard Walker photo.
Somewhere in my files I have a photo of two Santa Fe ice bunker reefers together, one orange and one yellow.

Bob Chaparro

Moderator

Railroad Citrus Industry Modeling Group

https://groups.io/g/RailroadCitrusIndustryModelingGroup


Re: New member checking in

Craig Wilson
 

The car ferry manifests from 1971 show very few cars with BN reporting marks and lots of the predecessor roads (GN, NP, CBQ).  The 1975 manifests list a lot more cars witn BN reporting marks as would be expected.  Lumber in boxcars and on bulkhead flatcars  was a common commodity.  Also Western Fruit Express insulated boxcars and mech reefers were common too.  Note that eastbound traffic was almost double that of westbound cars.
Craig Wilson


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Steve SANDIFER
 

I assume folks realize that ATSF changed their reefer color in 1956 from the yellow orange to a brighter orange. Here is a photo of the original yellow on an Intermountain ice reefer and the color drift card for the new color which Rapido is using on their RR-56 project.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 10:46 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

 

Very late in their careers, some of the Santa Fe's ice bunker reefers were painted the same orange usually associated with their later mechanical reefers.
Here is a Chard Walker photo.
Somewhere in my files I have a photo of two Santa Fe ice bunker reefers together, one orange and one yellow.

Bob Chaparro

Moderator

Railroad Citrus Industry Modeling Group

https://groups.io/g/RailroadCitrusIndustryModelingGroup


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Nelson Moyer
 

I didn’t get into model railroading until after Accupaint went away, so I don’t have any point of comparison. I’ve pretty much settled on four of the fade colors on the attachment I posted earlier. If anyone wants to look at the dots and offer suggestions, I’m open to change.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 4:00 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

 

Nelson

I have only used Accupaint MEC Harvest Yellow so I can't vouch for any of the others.
Accupaint never varies, in my experiences with it.

To me, the color looks like SFRD color that has faded a bit. For a brand new car, I might
add something like a few drops of CN orange (the really bright orange) and maybe a drop
or two of a red color.

When I painted PFE, I mixed colors to match the plates in the PFE book, and I do my mixing
under 300W (LED equivalent) 5000K lamps. :-D

Tim O'Connor


 


Re: Westerfield USRA SS Ann Arbor boxcar

Craig Wilson
 

Lettering practices at the time the AA single sheath cars were built were based on Wabash drawings, so yes.  That said there were some minor variations in placement of the lettering, the 14-inch "ANN ARBOR" roadname in particular, between the different builder's cars.  Note that the post-WW2 steel boxcars were built with essentially the paint same scheme and the Ann Arbor "pennant" herald did not appear until after 1950.

Craig Wilson


Re: USAX 11225 Questions

Tim O'Connor
 


And yet the cars remained in service for many years. And many ran into the 1980's in Mexico.


On 6/26/2022 9:27 PM, Chris Barkan wrote:


Lettered on the right side of the tank is EMERGENCY USGA AC&F CO, .and the built date of 10-42. What is EMERGENCY USGA?

This was a temporary relaxation of tank car construction standards in 1942 for the purpose of building up a fleet of cars to haul crude oil and gasoline until new pipelines could be built to handle the load. Their primary distinguishing trait was  the use of 4-course tank shells.
 
David Thompson

I am away from most of my reference sources so I cannot check on this, but my recollection is that these emergency cars were constructed of thinner steel plate, thereby conserving material for the war effort.  This is the explanation for the lower safety valve and tank pressure ratings than normal.
-- 
Chris Barkan

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Water-Base Clear Flat Coating

Tim O'Connor
 

Chuck

That's really good to know ! When I finally run out of my Floquil Clear Flat (not Glaze!)
it sounds like Minwax to the rescue ! And unlike the Floquil colors, the flat dries quickly
overnight after which the car can be handled without problems.



On 6/27/2022 5:06 PM, Charles Greene wrote:

I received several suggestions for a water-base flat coating for killing gloss after decaling, or otherwise, that wouldn't cause the slightly milky appearance that Model Master clear flat acrylic coating leaves, especially on dark colors. I noted that most, if not all, the suggested coatings were about $6/oz. Prior to my original post I had looked around and found Minwax Polycrylic Crystal Clear Topcoat (Clear Ultra Flat) which is $1.50/oz. None of the responders had tried it so I gave it a shot and found it to give a very good result. It's water-based, really flat, as claimed by the manufacturer, and doesn't leave any milky, or other, residue. I got the 8 oz. (smallest I could find) can for $12, but I think there are larger quantities which cost less per ounce (the 8 oz. size will last me a long time, though, since I dilute it to run it through an airbrush). It's intended for a different purpose (on wood furniture), but then so is Pledge floor gloss which many use for decal prep. 

Chuck Greene

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Water-Base Clear Flat Coating

Charles Greene
 

I received several suggestions for a water-base flat coating for killing gloss after decaling, or otherwise, that wouldn't cause the slightly milky appearance that Model Master clear flat acrylic coating leaves, especially on dark colors. I noted that most, if not all, the suggested coatings were about $6/oz. Prior to my original post I had looked around and found Minwax Polycrylic Crystal Clear Topcoat (Clear Ultra Flat) which is $1.50/oz. None of the responders had tried it so I gave it a shot and found it to give a very good result. It's water-based, really flat, as claimed by the manufacturer, and doesn't leave any milky, or other, residue. I got the 8 oz. (smallest I could find) can for $12, but I think there are larger quantities which cost less per ounce (the 8 oz. size will last me a long time, though, since I dilute it to run it through an airbrush). It's intended for a different purpose (on wood furniture), but then so is Pledge floor gloss which many use for decal prep. 

Chuck Greene
St. Charles, IL


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Tim O'Connor
 

Nelson

I have only used Accupaint MEC Harvest Yellow so I can't vouch for any of the others.
Accupaint never varies, in my experiences with it.

To me, the color looks like SFRD color that has faded a bit. For a brand new car, I might
add something like a few drops of CN orange (the really bright orange) and maybe a drop
or two of a red color.

When I painted PFE, I mixed colors to match the plates in the PFE book, and I do my mixing
under 300W (LED equivalent) 5000K lamps. :-D

Tim O'Connor


On 6/27/2022 4:16 PM, Nelson Moyer wrote:

I think Harvest Yellow color depends on manufactures and data of manufacture. The currently available Harvest Yellow seem too yellow to me. This reminds me of Sunshine instructions for reefers where sometimes the color recommendation was pumpkin yellow and sometimes pumpkin orange. So which is it? Pumpkins don’t fade or change color, so pumpkin color is pumpkin color, whether you call it yellow or orange.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 11:25 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

 


I forgot to add -- The models are the same color. The difference is lighting.

On 6/27/2022 12:22 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:


Keith Jordan recommended Accupaint MEC Harvest Yellow for SFRD and I really like
the color - close to what Intermountain/Longs put on the SFRD plastic kits for cars a year
or two out of the shop, if not fresh paint.

I've never seen a drift card or sample of the real thing and color photos are all over the place.


On 6/27/2022 12:05 PM, Nelson Moyer wrote:

I’ve been told that SFRD reefer paint was toward the yellow side early and on the orange side later. I’m interested in their appearance circa 1950, where fewer color photos are available.

 

Nelson Moyer

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Attachments:

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Thoughts on PFE Orange

Jerry Michels
 

No argument here Tony, but I watched a lot of reefer blocks coming through Laramie, and the shades of color were pretty broad. Although PFE frequently washed their cars, the timeline is important.  A reefer block consisting of a number of smaller blocks gathered from over the system and then high balled to Chicago would show a lot of variation.  I expect it would be even more pronounced as the cars returned.  Nothing like Chicago rain, Wyoming blizzards, and California sun to have their effect.  I agree also that other companies were not as meticulous; ART being a good example.

Off the subject, but after I wrote the MP caboose book, I got similar questions about what color to paint an MP caboose.  My answer is attached..

Jerry


Re: InterMountain C&O 1937 boxcar with Deco Ends

Tim O'Connor
 


Here's a C&O car with early style lettering, a 1954 shop date, in a 1956 photo.


On 6/25/2022 9:17 AM, Charlie Duckworth via groups.io wrote:

John.  I got my information off this O gauge site on C&O 5400 being the only example with black doors but your image certainly raises the question is the site correct?  https://www.richyodermodels.com/rym_fc_co_boxcar5400.htm
If it’s wrong I wonder were he got his information?  Since the car was built in 1937 and my layout is in the early 1950’s it’s only 15-17 years old so I wanted to keep the original lettering.  

--
Charlie Duckworth 

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Nelson Moyer
 

I think Harvest Yellow color depends on manufactures and data of manufacture. The currently available Harvest Yellow seem too yellow to me. This reminds me of Sunshine instructions for reefers where sometimes the color recommendation was pumpkin yellow and sometimes pumpkin orange. So which is it? Pumpkins don’t fade or change color, so pumpkin color is pumpkin color, whether you call it yellow or orange.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 11:25 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

 


I forgot to add -- The models are the same color. The difference is lighting.

On 6/27/2022 12:22 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:


Keith Jordan recommended Accupaint MEC Harvest Yellow for SFRD and I really like
the color - close to what Intermountain/Longs put on the SFRD plastic kits for cars a year
or two out of the shop, if not fresh paint.

I've never seen a drift card or sample of the real thing and color photos are all over the place.


On 6/27/2022 12:05 PM, Nelson Moyer wrote:

I’ve been told that SFRD reefer paint was toward the yellow side early and on the orange side later. I’m interested in their appearance circa 1950, where fewer color photos are available.

 

Nelson Moyer

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Attachments:

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: InterMountain C&O 1937 boxcar with Deco Ends

Tim O'Connor
 


Dullcote & alcohol can make for some very interesting 'blush' effects (the lighter patches)

On 6/25/2022 7:15 AM, Charlie Duckworth via groups.io wrote:

John
Thanks, I have a bottle of diluted Dullcote that’s had a few drops of Black and Tan (my computer thinks I’m discussing a beer mix and keeps adding capitals).  That’s the only ‘fading’ I’ve done.  The Viking roof hasn’t been attacked as yet other than the above Dullcote coverage but today I’m off the Dick Blicks art store to pick up some additional Pan Pastels to try and replicate this look. 


-- 
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Photo: Railroad Yards - Minneapolis, Minnesota (1939)

Gary Wildung
 

Tim
You are right it is the Soo line on the left but it is the NP on the right side .Picture taken looking North from downtown Mpls
Gary

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 10:17 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Railroad Yards - Minneapolis, Minnesota (1939)
 

Soo Line on the left, CStPM&O on the right.

On 6/21/2022 12:54 PM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io wrote:

Photo: Railroad Yards - Minneapolis, Minnesota (1939)

Photo from the Library of Congress:

https://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2017718495/resource/

Good assortment of period freight cars.
Bob Chaparro



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: PFE VS SANTA FE ORANGE

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony

An evasion. :-D  Here is a photo I took indoors with a strong incandescent light source.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timboconnor/13252874824/

If you saw this car in daylight, you would say it's another color. If you saw it in fluorescent
light, you'd call it another color. I actually thought I had painted this car to be much too dark
and that is how it looks under normal, weak indoor lights. So I was surprised by the results
after I shot this photo!


Anywho, here is what Richard Hendrickson wrote in May 2008.
==============================================

Ed, in the few surviving color photos from the late '40s and early 
'50s that show numerous SFRD cars in the same train or yard, color 
varies widely, not because the cars were painted differently but 
because of the usual fading, weathering, and accumulations of grime.  
The paint used on the sides of SFRD colors MAY have been lighter and 
more yellow in the 1920s, but it was essentially the same yellow-
orange on all cars from the mid-1930s through the 1950s.  With the 
adoption of the giant herald stenciling scheme beginning in 1959, the 
color seems to have shifted to a more orange shade, but that 
perception depends on the slides/movies you're looking at, and - of 
course - color film reproduction was/is notoriously unreliable as a 
guide to actual colors.  During the period that's relevant to most 
subscribers to this list, the Santa Fe did not change the color of 
the paint used on reefer sides (aside from the usual minor variations 
from one batch of paint to another).

Richard Hendrickson


On 6/27/2022 3:43 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

And again, a poorly lit model. Take that car into bright sunlight, and then tell me what color it is. :-)
I don’t know about you, Tim, but my layout is indoors. Tony


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

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