Date   

Re: PRR X25 was PRR "wrong-way" door car - Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32

Robert kirkham
 

Excellent info.  I had no idea.  When i think about it, i think i pulled the phrase out of a memory of a F&C Lehigh Valley kit.  

As for my road, which for the fun of it i’ll say is the CPR, hey, we didn’t even use car classes etc to identify our cars.  No X28, X29 or GLa etc.  Just number series and (in company records) lot numbers for various build orders.  At this point i have not found a left opening door but, until yesterday, i wasn’t looking.

Rob      

On Jul 2, 2022, at 4:49 AM, Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...> wrote:

Rob Kirkham wrote:
"But, tell me for real, were you really surprised to find it was a car with a left opening door.   And was there more than one class of PRR cars that had left opening doors?   (I really don’t know the answer to that, so am curious)."

You have to expand your horizons...in the early part of the century, left-opening doors were quite common.  The largest group of boxcars built for a US railroad, the PRR Class XL (> 32,000 built), had left-opening doors.  These were retired en masse from revenue during the 1930s as the PRR Class X29 cars were built (> 29,000 cars), with the last ones running in revenue service on the Pennsy (LIRR) in the early 1940s.  The Class XL boxcars are also available from Westerfield, in many variations over its lifetime, including cars converted to work service.

With over 32,000 cars built, maybe it's your railroad that has its doors opening the wrong way.


Ben Hom


Re: PRR X25 was PRR "wrong-way" door car - Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32

Dave Parker
 

On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 08:33 AM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
So, why the eventual dominance of doors opening to the right, to the eventual exclusion of single doors opening to the left?
This is only a guess, but maybe the MCB/ARA lettering standards might have influenced this?  The placement of the reporting marks, car number, and weight data to the left of center was "preferred" in the 1908 Recommended Practice.  The marking practices became a Standard in 1913 and, by 1918, it seems that the left-side placement was MOL mandated.  This would seem to roughly coincide with the disappearance of left-opening doors in new construction (I think).

A left-opening door could wholly or partially obscure the more "important" stencils; the right-side markings generally consisted of dimensional data and/or equipment lists.  So, on cars like the X23, the placement of the markings was flipped relative to the Standard.

I have no idea if this consideration would have been enough to even nudge the industry away from left-opening doors. 

Another factor that comes to mind is the standardization of the door hardware manufactured by companies such as Camel.  Maybe?
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: PRR X25 was PRR "wrong-way" door car - Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32

Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

This makes me wonder, what was the reasoning, leftward opening vs. rightward? Admittedly, leftward opening doors predated steel cars; plenty of wood cars were built with doors that opened to the left. In fact, if one goes back to the dawn of railroad equipment, I would suspect an ever split, as one finds with building doors. But on buildings the details of location dictate the choice, not so with railroad cars. So, why the eventual dominance of doors opening to the right, to the eventual exclusion of single doors opening to the left?

Dennis Storzek


ATSF reefer colors

Andy Carlson
 

An interesting view of the differences in "Yellow/Orange"
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA



Inline image


Freight car ID

Clark Propst
 

Anymore have any "guesses" as to these freight cars?

My modeling guesses would be the Roundhouse hopper could be used to model the three bay hopper and the last car might be a AAR 1937 design, but can't name the RR from the emblem...


Re: PRR X25 was PRR "wrong-way" door car - Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32

Bruce Smith
 

Rob,

As noted by others, nope, not at all surprised, but then I am very familiar with PRR's boxcar classes and know that the left opening doorway on a steel boxcar (along with the deep fishbelly centersill) are all spotting features of the X25 class. That centersill was inherited from the X23 class (also left opening door). The X25 represents the pioneering class of all-steel boxcars on the PRR. A smaller subclass,. X25A, was built with double doors and an end door for automobile loading service. Unlike the X24 and X28 classes, the X25A kept the same roof height as its general service counterpart (X23, X29 in the other cases). You will note that the main door being left opening is subtly carried over in the X25A (and X24) as these cars have the double door offset to the right, not the left, as you may be used to in later double door automobile cars such as the X28 and X31.

As noted already, Westerfield offers(ed) the X25 and X25A as flat resin kits so no need to kitbash.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 11:53 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR X25 was PRR "wrong-way" door car - Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
lol, that gave me chuckle.  I really thought the quote marks would indicate it wasn’t so much my choice of words as a descriptive label i’ve seen used somewhere else.  First time i’ve been accused of being unnecessarily pejorative to a freight car.  (smiling here, btw - not at all upset to be corrected).  Point taken, i will reform my language choices going forward.   But, tell me for real, were you really surprised to find it was a car with a left opening door.   And was there more than one class of PRR cars that had left opening doors?   (I really don’t know the answer to that, so am curious).

I am grateful that Eric was able to identify the class.  These haven’t been on my radar.  I really like the fishbelly centre sill.   It would make an interesting model; possibly workable as a kitbash?

Rob 

On Jul 1, 2022, at 7:43 PM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

Eric,

Thanks for pointing out that this is an X25. The terminology "wrong way" door is outmoded and inaccurate. There is nothing "wrong" about a left opening door and in fact, it was quite common with the X23 also having a left opening door, along with many other cars of many other roads, so the term is not only unnecessarily pejorative, it is lacking in sufficient detail to identify the car class.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Eric Hansmann <eric@...>
Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 5:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR "wrong-way" door car - Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
That's a great two-fer! A Pennsy X25 box car and a classic Autocar truck!

The X25 cars were the first steel-sheathed box cars for the Pennsy. Almost 10,000 were built between 1915 and 1919.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On 07/01/2022 4:25 PM Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:


Thanks for the pointer.  I fund this (new to me) car:https://mohistory.org/collections/item/P0403-12111-03-4a?fullscreen=1 



Re: PRR X25 was PRR "wrong-way" door car - Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32

Ray Breyer
 

Before WWII, almost all Pennsy cars had left opening doors. Similarly, most Erie and B&O cars also had left opening doors, as did many smaller eastern fleets (and for a time, about half of the SP's house cars had left sliders too). With three of the top ten house car fleets having left opening doors, they were anything but "wrong".

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL




On Jul 1, 2022, at 7:43 PM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

Eric,

Thanks for pointing out that this is an X25. The terminology "wrong way" door is outmoded and inaccurate. There is nothing "wrong" about a left opening door and in fact, it was quite common with the X23 also having a left opening door, along with many other cars of many other roads, so the term is not only unnecessarily pejorative, it is lacking in sufficient detail to identify the car class.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: PRR X25 was PRR "wrong-way" door car - Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32

Benjamin Hom
 

Rob Kirkham wrote:
"But, tell me for real, were you really surprised to find it was a car with a left opening door.   And was there more than one class of PRR cars that had left opening doors?   (I really don’t know the answer to that, so am curious)."

You have to expand your horizons...in the early part of the century, left-opening doors were quite common.  The largest group of boxcars built for a US railroad, the PRR Class XL (> 32,000 built), had left-opening doors.  These were retired en masse from revenue during the 1930s as the PRR Class X29 cars were built (> 29,000 cars), with the last ones running in revenue service on the Pennsy (LIRR) in the early 1940s.  The Class XL boxcars are also available from Westerfield, in many variations over its lifetime, including cars converted to work service.

With over 32,000 cars built, maybe it's your railroad that has its doors opening the wrong way.


Ben Hom


Re: Virginian BX10 boxcar

Paul Doggett
 

Gary 

Thank you.

Paul Doggett 


On 1 Jul 2022, at 22:29, Gary McMills <santafe@...> wrote:



Nice work Paul.

I really like the subtle weathering effects you did and the decal work is great.

Gary McMills

Vicksburg Miss.


On 2022-07-01 11:02, Paul Doggett via groups.io wrote:

Hi Guys

I have just finished a Funaro and Camerlengo Virginian BX10 boxcar I used National scale car (old Speedwitch) decals, it’s an interesting car with its plate steel ends. The paint is a mix of Badger dark and light Tuscan, weathering was done with Railmatch weathering paints mixed with Railmatch matt varnish. Another interesting point is it’s internal height which is only 8’0” which can be seen when next to more modern cars.

Paul Doggett.      England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿






Re: PRR X25 was PRR "wrong-way" door car - Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Rob,
 
Westerfield offers kits for the X25.
 
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 
From: Robert kirkham
Sent: Saturday, July 2, 2022 12:53 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR X25 was PRR "wrong-way" door car - Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32
 
lol, that gave me chuckle.  I really thought the quote marks would indicate it wasn’t so much my choice of words as a descriptive label i’ve seen used somewhere else.  First time i’ve been accused of being unnecessarily pejorative to a freight car.  (smiling here, btw - not at all upset to be corrected).  Point taken, i will reform my language choices going forward.   But, tell me for real, were you really surprised to find it was a car with a left opening door.   And was there more than one class of PRR cars that had left opening doors?   (I really don’t know the answer to that, so am curious).
 
I am grateful that Eric was able to identify the class.  These haven’t been on my radar.  I really like the fishbelly centre sill.   It would make an interesting model; possibly workable as a kitbash?
 
Rob
 
On Jul 1, 2022, at 7:43 PM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
 
Eric,
 
Thanks for pointing out that this is an X25. The terminology "wrong way" door is outmoded and inaccurate. There is nothing "wrong" about a left opening door and in fact, it was quite common with the X23 also having a left opening door, along with many other cars of many other roads, so the term is not only unnecessarily pejorative, it is lacking in sufficient detail to identify the car class.
 
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Eric Hansmann <eric@...>
Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 5:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR "wrong-way" door car - Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
That's a great two-fer! A Pennsy X25 box car and a classic Autocar truck!
 
The X25 cars were the first steel-sheathed box cars for the Pennsy. Almost 10,000 were built between 1915 and 1919.
 
 
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
 

On 07/01/2022 4:25 PM Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:
 
 
Thanks for the pointer.  I fund this (new to me) car:https://mohistory.org/collections/item/P0403-12111-03-4a?fullscreen=1 
 
 


Re: PRR X25 was PRR "wrong-way" door car - Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32

Robert kirkham
 

lol, that gave me chuckle.  I really thought the quote marks would indicate it wasn’t so much my choice of words as a descriptive label i’ve seen used somewhere else.  First time i’ve been accused of being unnecessarily pejorative to a freight car.  (smiling here, btw - not at all upset to be corrected).  Point taken, i will reform my language choices going forward.   But, tell me for real, were you really surprised to find it was a car with a left opening door.   And was there more than one class of PRR cars that had left opening doors?   (I really don’t know the answer to that, so am curious).

I am grateful that Eric was able to identify the class.  These haven’t been on my radar.  I really like the fishbelly centre sill.   It would make an interesting model; possibly workable as a kitbash?

Rob 

On Jul 1, 2022, at 7:43 PM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

Eric,

Thanks for pointing out that this is an X25. The terminology "wrong way" door is outmoded and inaccurate. There is nothing "wrong" about a left opening door and in fact, it was quite common with the X23 also having a left opening door, along with many other cars of many other roads, so the term is not only unnecessarily pejorative, it is lacking in sufficient detail to identify the car class.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Eric Hansmann <eric@...>
Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 5:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR "wrong-way" door car - Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
That's a great two-fer! A Pennsy X25 box car and a classic Autocar truck!

The X25 cars were the first steel-sheathed box cars for the Pennsy. Almost 10,000 were built between 1915 and 1919.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On 07/01/2022 4:25 PM Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:


Thanks for the pointer.  I fund this (new to me) car:https://mohistory.org/collections/item/P0403-12111-03-4a?fullscreen=1 



Re: Northern Pacific Tankage Boxcar

Bruce Hendrick
 

James, thanks for the reply and expounding on the subject. 


PRR X25 was PRR "wrong-way" door car - Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32

Bruce Smith
 

Eric,

Thanks for pointing out that this is an X25. The terminology "wrong way" door is outmoded and inaccurate. There is nothing "wrong" about a left opening door and in fact, it was quite common with the X23 also having a left opening door, along with many other cars of many other roads, so the term is not only unnecessarily pejorative, it is lacking in sufficient detail to identify the car class.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Eric Hansmann <eric@...>
Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 5:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR "wrong-way" door car - Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
That's a great two-fer! A Pennsy X25 box car and a classic Autocar truck!

The X25 cars were the first steel-sheathed box cars for the Pennsy. Almost 10,000 were built between 1915 and 1919.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On 07/01/2022 4:25 PM Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:


Thanks for the pointer.  I fund this (new to me) car:https://mohistory.org/collections/item/P0403-12111-03-4a?fullscreen=1 


Re: Northern Pacific Tankage Boxcar

np328
 

Yes Bruce, I fully understand what you posted.   
Though I think much of what you reason with is in the eye of the beholder. 

As an NP historian, the 48000 and 49000 of NP cars are in fact, fairly well documented in photos. 
And changes in 1969 - are as others have wrote here prior, have - yet to happen - as far as this list is concerned. 
And as Hudson points out - there is no photo link. 
And all the included text is long into the future from this lists POV.   

 Of "unusual cars built after 1960 but similar to earlier types for which little or no photos exist", see post # 58 from the final word on all, Mike Brock.
From post # 58, if a reason can be tendered why the original post affects cars - in the 1960 era and prior, it is indeed open to discussion. 

This is not the first time that postings that belong on the BBFCL have crept in here and no doubt will not be the last. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                       James Dick - Roseville, MN 


Off list contact for Ray Breyer

Robert kirkham
 

Hi Ray - was wanting to ask a question about one of your articles on the Design Build Op blog. Can you send your email address to rdkirkham at live dot ca?

Rob


Re: Northern Pacific Tankage Boxcar

Bruce Hendrick
 

Many freight cars active in the pre-1960 domain of this group may have been rarely photographed before that cutoff date. Photographs of such cars taken at a later date are of great value to members of this group, and may be the only photo record. The same can be said as to unusual cars built after 1960 but similar to earlier types for which little or no photos exist. 

Bruce Hendrick


Re: Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32

Jack Mullen
 

On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 02:19 PM, Dave Parker wrote:
IMO, the NEACX stencil is some sort of "typo" at the paint shop.  The reporting mark is consistently NEAX from 1934 to 1940 (at least).  I can't come up with another explanation.
It does appear that somebody was a bit unclear on the concept.  But the thirties seem to be a period of transition to more strict compliance with use of assigned marks.

In the 7-34 ORER, car 32 is listed individually as an 8000 gal, 80,000 lb car.  By 7/35, the exact gallonage is given as 8170 (more reminiscent of a tariff listing!), but the weight capacity is listed as 55,600 lbs -- a real oddity for a tank car.  This is replicated in a 10-37 listing, but by 1-40 these figures are given as 8170 and 80,000.  I hesitate to speculate on what might have caused these unusual listing.
Common industrial alcohols have specific gravities around 0.79-0.80. 55,600 lbs is a plausible weight of 8179 gallons of an alcohol close to 90% concentration. 
...
Not sure about modeling the tank with a P2000 Type 21.  
I agree that this is a 1928 built tank, likely AC&F.  To my eye, the tank proportions look like an 8k type 27 would suit very well. I'm not sure about the frame i.d. or what would be a good option in HO.  The prototype appears to have cast tank cradles, fwiw.

Jack Mullen


Re: Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32

Ed Hawkins
 



On Jul 1, 2022, at 4:19 PM, Dave Parker via groups.io <spottab@...> wrote:

Assuming the frame was built in 1912, it is obviously a new tank -- the double rivets alone date it as 1917+, and the ICC 103 stencil alone suggests 1927+.   But I think the stencils are sufficiently legible:  the tank was built in 1928 by ACF, and the pressure tested at that time.  In 1-34, the safety valves were test by ?? in Everett, the car was light-weighted, and I believe painted (thus the 1-34 stencil under EVERETT).

Dave and others interested,

In going thru the ACF photos and records, I cannot find a lot number for NEACX 32. Because of this I surmise the car was purchased 2nd-hand.

Interestingly, NEAX 32 appears in ACF records as lot no. 1778 with the bill of materials denoting the car was the former MCHX 32. A new ACF builder photo taken 2/16/38 shows the original tank built 6-8-28, now stenciled as ICC-103 instead of ARA III. The underframe that in all likelihood was an ACF Type 21 was upgraded to include an Ajax hand brake, AB brakes, and what I believe are AAR double-truss trucks. Placard locations on the sides were moved.

Incidentally, I’m fairly sure that MCHX 32 was not bought as a new ACF Type 27 tank car as I can find no such original order for the Merrimac Chemical Co. The only 8,000-gallon ACF tank cars I’ve found with the same 6-28 build date were for The Rossville Company (RVX 111-115) of Lawrenceville, Indiana. However, these 4 cars built in lot 680 came on Type 28 underframes. These cars also did not come with arch bar trucks. So I don’t believe RVX 111-115 could be the origin of MCHX 32, NEACX 32 & the later NEAX 32.

Attached is a scan of NEAX 32 from ACF lot 1778 with the ACF builder photo taken after it received the upgrades. The gallon capacity stencils denote 8173. 

Paint specs for NEAX 32: Red - center band, dome, tank heads; aluminum - balance of upper portion of tank; black - lower portion of tank, underframe, trucks, AB brake parts, ladders, grabs, handrail, side platforms, grabs, and hand brake. Black stencils on aluminum, white stencils on black and red. 

The National Museum of Transportation has a general arrangement drawing of NEAX 32, drawing no. 3149226.

The New England Alcohol Co. continued to be listed from the early 1930s thru at least 7/49. The 4/51 ORER no longer listed the company.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins







Re: Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32

Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 03:40 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
I have seen photos of workmen hand-painting to cover the stencil gaps.
And the sheet metal stencils used in production painting of freightcars often had "stencil bars" made of wire, so the paint flowed around them naturally.

Dennis Storzek


Re: PRR "wrong-way" door car - Photo: New England Alcohol Company Tank Car NEACX 32

Eric Hansmann
 

That's a great two-fer! A Pennsy X25 box car and a classic Autocar truck!

The X25 cars were the first steel-sheathed box cars for the Pennsy. Almost 10,000 were built between 1915 and 1919.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On 07/01/2022 4:25 PM Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:


Thanks for the pointer.  I fund this (new to me) car:https://mohistory.org/collections/item/P0403-12111-03-4a?fullscreen=1 

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