Date   

Re: Accurail single sheathed box cars (was CNJ 12000 series)

Clark Propst
 

Finished the Milwaukee car by adding the remaining decals, then primsacolor pencils and Pan Pastels, finally another coat of clear Dullcote.

Waiting for Black Cat decals to finish the CN model.
Clark


Re: Some Thoughts On Resin Kit Stashes

Chuck Cover
 

Thanks Bill, well stated.  Many in this hobby are collectors rather than builders, which is ideal for those who design and sell the resin kits.  If the only kits sold were those which were immediately built, I do not believe that there would have been enough income to sustain the resin kit manufacturers. 

 

So I am grateful for all of those model railroad collectors out there whose passion was collecting kits, brass engines, and other model railroad stuff.  We are now seeing sales of some of this collected equipment which will give all of us an opportunity to find those kits what we have been searching for so we can complete our layouts and freight car rosters.

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM


Youngstown Door Nomenclature

Andy Carlson
 



2nd send:

BACK in 2017 I sent this message. It may be of some help today.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Hello-

Two years ago I was inspired from a post by Bill Welch. I answered with a short description of the various Youngstown doors. I was asked for photos and today I added illustrations of the common Youngstown steel doors (YSD). No mention is made of door appliances (hardware such as latches) which is a story by itself. Corrections are encouraged.


From 2017...............

 
Hi, I would like to jump in here with some thoughts.

Bill Welch, an historian as much as a modeler, has questions identifying doors from the Youngstown door co. produced during our era of interest. He is not alone.

As in most other components used on steam era freight cars, door manufacturers simply offered product for applications by width/height. Small changes were often running changes when an improvement made its way into production. Even so,there were three very distinct styles of Youngstown doors made in our favorite era.

Authors, modelers and tool makers need to be able communicate the ID of the various doors to clear confusion. Similar to how modelers issued "phases" for EMD's F unit line of locomotives (Something EMD never did) to communicate and make sense of the various deviations over time, Youngstown doors have had modeler's IDs applied. Unfortunately, standards have not yet been agreed upon; so confusion is not avoided; such as Bill Welch's.

Simple code initials (such as Y2-A) work well for large tables (such as Ed Hawkins' great freight car summaries) where the reader can refer to the bottom of the table to a more verbose description. However, simply identifying a door in an article as a "Y2-A" isn't helpful to 99% of the readers outside of these tables. We need a nomenclature which is intuitive, brief, understandable and made a standard.

I propose following Dan Hall's method to id'ing Youngstown doors. Dan makes various Youngstown and superior doors for HO in his Southwest Scale Models' line.

Pre-war Youngstown doors were typically made of 3 (sometimes 4) pressed steel sheets riveted together to make the size sufficient to cover the door openings. The riveted joints were in the flat area of the sheet recessed towards the inside of the car. Each section has ribs stamped into it which forms rectangular panels which are very easily spotted and counted from even lesser quality photos.

A typical Youngstown door on a 1937 AAR box will have , counting from top-to-bottom a 5/6/5 pattern of panels. To accommodate differing heights, the door maker simply uses taller sheets for the top and bottom sheets so the adjustment of height is made in the joint area. For a pre-war Youngstown door, this feature is noticable and should be addressed. At a minimum, the riveted joint sections produce a panel which is nearly identical in dimensions as the 5/6/5 panels themselves. Being the shortest variant, I call these -S (for short). A taller door will have the joint panel somewhat taller than the standard panels, so I label these as -M (for medium). The tallest Youngstown door's joint panels are almost twice the height of the regular panels. If the door needs to be even taller for its application, the maker will simply add more panels (though in the pre-war time, doors would more likely have LESS panels for inside height cars lower than the AAR '37). The taller joint panel doors would have a -T ( for tall) to cover the door openings for a 10'6" IH car <pre-war 5/6/5-T>.

          A 1937 AAR pre-war Youngstown 5/6/5-S (The S need not be attached as it is obvious)

Inline image


          A Youngstown 5/6/5-T door on a single sheathed box car

Inline image


Examples:  A '37 AAR boxcar would typically be 6' pre-war 5/6/5-S Youngstown Steel door. Simplified to <Pre-war 5/6/5 YSD> (the "S" could be left off as it could be inferred that the most common variant is the 'S'. A 10'6" IH AAR box car would have a taller door opening and the most common door for these cars was the <pre-war 5/6/5-T>. Fewer doors were built with the 'M' spacing.

1947 saw the introduction of the improved Youngstown door. Lessons learned from more than a decade of production of the pre-war versions allowed a redesign which was very noticeable. Changes to the perimeter frame area strengthened the door. To accommodate these changes, the joint section was substantially changed. Now it was more like a crimped joint and no longer would the joint area be where slight variances in height would be achieved. From then on the height differences would be totally from the addition or subtraction of panels, and to a lesser degree, variations in the perimeter frame.

Most AAR box cars built at this time were to the 10'6" inside height. For about one year, this new door had a panel count of 6/6/5. After this brief period, the doors were made with 5/6/6 panels, and continued for decades with little changes. Since the joint sections were un-changing, no 'S' 'M' or 'T' appellations were necessary. A typical door for a 10'6" car would be <5/6/6 Improved YSD>.

    Single year (1946/47) offering of the "upside down" 6/6/5 Improved Youngstown door

Inline image


     A 5/6/6 Improved Youngstown steel door (Late 1947 and on)

Inline image

Youngstown steel improved doors for 10'0" nominal height cars were common in two variations; a 4/6/6 and a 5/6/5



Before this big change, around 1946, both Southern Pacific and the Santa Fe received Youngstown doors which shared techniques of both designs. Dan Hall, like nearly everyone else, labels these doors as "Interim-Improved". The SP door was <5/5/5 interim-improved YSD>. The Santa Fe's 10'6" IH doors were <5/6/5 interiom-improved YSD>. These SP doors gained a lot of notoriety as the doors used on the fleet of "Overnight" express box cars.

Inline image

After the time of interest to our audience, Youngstown continued to get orders for doors in ever increasing widths. For awhile, the largest width was an eight foot wide door. When orders for a 9' door came, the order was met with the stamping of the 8' doors with a 6 inch wide perimeter frame. This was soon dropped as stampings with full 9' width were then produced. Later still, orders for 10' doors came in and these orders were initially met with the 6" perimeter frame added to the new 9' stamping.


Inline image



The most common YSD doors from 1937 to 1948:
pre-war5/6/5-S YSD  (Red Caboose & Intermountain in HO)
pre-war5/6/5-T YSD for mostly 10'6" cars  (Intermountain in HO)
Interim-Improved 5/5/5 YSD (SP 1946-Southwest Scale Models in HO)
Interim-Improved 5/6/5 YSD (ATSF Bx-44 1946-Southwest Scale Models in HO)
Improved 6/6/5 YSD (1947 mostly) (CB&T shops & Southwest Scale Models in HO)
Improved 5/6/6 YSD 1948 and on (Kadee, Red Caboose, Branchline, Intermountain in HO)

Regards,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

.

__,_._,___





Re: 7' wide 10' IH Youngstown door for CRP XM-4

Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM, hubert mask wrote:
Usually door variations were determined by satisfying the shipper’s needs for loading and unloading at consignee .  It’s my thinking that is why there no door one size fits all.
Just my thinking. 
Yeah but... we're not talking about the size of the door here, but rather the relative size of the panels that make up the door. It's easy to see why the stamped steel ends on the USRA cars were three panels; the cars were five inches taller than what came before, and likely two panels would exceed the size of the available stamping presses, especially on short notice. But these doors used different combinations of panels at different times. I suspect the answer lies in what other doors the three panels were also used in, and which panel (top, middle, or bottom) was easiest to build a tool for, considering the low production anticipated after the AAR standard went to 10'-6" IH.

Dennis Storzek
 


Re: Some Thoughts On Resin Kit Stashes

Pierre Oliver
 

Minions, HA!

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 7/15/22 3:41 p.m., Matt Smith wrote:

Bill,

As a newcomer to prototype modeling/resin, I appreciate that many people bought kits they "might" be interested in. This helped ensure the viability of these projects and spurred Martin to keep producing. As I've come to appreciate many folks are willing to sell/trade kits that no longer suit their interests. Kudos to Frank, Andrew, Ted, Pierre, Ryan, Greg and all their minions/friends that continue make it possible.
--
Matt Smith
Bloomington, IL


Re: 7' wide 10' IH Youngstown door for CRP XM-4

hubert mask
 

Usually door variations were determined by satisfying the shipper’s needs for loading and unloading at consignee .  It’s my thinking that is why there no door one size fits all.
Just my thinking. 

Hubert Mask


On Jul 15, 2022, at 10:51 AM, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:

Tim/anyone,
  I'm not challenging the differences - but I have a question ...

  Why would a railroad order/use a 5/6/6 -vs- a 5/6/5 -vs- a 4/6/6 ... etc.?  Other
than a spotting freature why did Youngstown make different configuration for 
a "nominal 10'6" height door?  
  Were these actually made so they would fit 'slight' (?) differences in height?
Done at different times ("evolving technology")?  Some other reason?

  And, for that matter, was there a significant difference between the Youngstown
doors and some other makers?

  Or was it all about the cost ... at a point in time?
                                                                                                      - Jim in the PNW


Re: Some Thoughts On Resin Kit Stashes

Paul Doggett
 

We definitely owe Martin an awful lot for what he did for our hobby.
Paul Doggett.     England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 


On 15 Jul 2022, at 20:34, Charlie Duckworth via groups.io <Worth51@...> wrote:


Bill
This PP by Steve Hile says Martin did 100 base kits and 1,250 variations. 

Charlie 

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 2:26 PM O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401_at_gmail.com_Worth51@...> wrote:
Amen to that BillFenton On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 2:54 PM WILLIAM PARDIE wrote: The recent posts on the sale of resin kits has prompted a few random.thoughts. I fondly remembe
Amen to that Bill
Fenton

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 2:54 PM WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:
The recent posts on the sale of resin kits has prompted a few random.thoughts.  I fondly remember the Feeding Frenzy that occurred when Martin opened the doors to his sales room at the Naperville meets.  Scores of modelers exiting with stacks of kits under each arm.  Martin never had a cash register yet the crowd passed through faster than an express line at a super market.  One could not help but wonder how many if these kits would actually be built.  We are kind of finding out now.  I know many "modelers" whose pride is how many kits they have on their shelves.

More to the point these recent sales has bought to light what a monumental endevour  Martin engaged in in producing the kits.  Has anyone ever counted the number of different kits that Martin produced over the years?  There are some great kits being produced today but nobody approaches the sheer volume that Sunshine offered.

Thank you Martin and Patricia for the mega contribution to the hobby.

Bill Pardie




Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



--

--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


Re: Some Thoughts On Resin Kit Stashes

Matt Smith
 

Bill,

As a newcomer to prototype modeling/resin, I appreciate that many people bought kits they "might" be interested in. This helped ensure the viability of these projects and spurred Martin to keep producing. As I've come to appreciate many folks are willing to sell/trade kits that no longer suit their interests. Kudos to Frank, Andrew, Ted, Pierre, Ryan, Greg and all their minions/friends that continue make it possible.
--
Matt Smith
Bloomington, IL


Re: Some Thoughts On Resin Kit Stashes

Charlie Duckworth
 

Bill
This PP by Steve Hile says Martin did 100 base kits and 1,250 variations. 

Charlie 

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 2:26 PM O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401_at_gmail.com_Worth51@...> wrote:
Amen to that BillFenton On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 2:54 PM WILLIAM PARDIE wrote: The recent posts on the sale of resin kits has prompted a few random.thoughts. I fondly remembe
Amen to that Bill
Fenton

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 2:54 PM WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:
The recent posts on the sale of resin kits has prompted a few random.thoughts.  I fondly remember the Feeding Frenzy that occurred when Martin opened the doors to his sales room at the Naperville meets.  Scores of modelers exiting with stacks of kits under each arm.  Martin never had a cash register yet the crowd passed through faster than an express line at a super market.  One could not help but wonder how many if these kits would actually be built.  We are kind of finding out now.  I know many "modelers" whose pride is how many kits they have on their shelves.

More to the point these recent sales has bought to light what a monumental endevour  Martin engaged in in producing the kits.  Has anyone ever counted the number of different kits that Martin produced over the years?  There are some great kits being produced today but nobody approaches the sheer volume that Sunshine offered.

Thank you Martin and Patricia for the mega contribution to the hobby.

Bill Pardie




Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



--

--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


Re: Some Thoughts On Resin Kit Stashes

O Fenton Wells
 

Amen to that Bill
Fenton

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 2:54 PM WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:
The recent posts on the sale of resin kits has prompted a few random.thoughts.  I fondly remember the Feeding Frenzy that occurred when Martin opened the doors to his sales room at the Naperville meets.  Scores of modelers exiting with stacks of kits under each arm.  Martin never had a cash register yet the crowd passed through faster than an express line at a super market.  One could not help but wonder how many if these kits would actually be built.  We are kind of finding out now.  I know many "modelers" whose pride is how many kits they have on their shelves.

More to the point these recent sales has bought to light what a monumental endevour  Martin engaged in in producing the kits.  Has anyone ever counted the number of different kits that Martin produced over the years?  There are some great kits being produced today but nobody approaches the sheer volume that Sunshine offered.

Thank you Martin and Patricia for the mega contribution to the hobby.

Bill Pardie




Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Some Thoughts On Resin Kit Stashes

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

The recent posts on the sale of resin kits has prompted a few random.thoughts.  I fondly remember the Feeding Frenzy that occurred when Martin opened the doors to his sales room at the Naperville meets.  Scores of modelers exiting with stacks of kits under each arm.  Martin never had a cash register yet the crowd passed through faster than an express line at a super market.  One could not help but wonder how many if these kits would actually be built.  We are kind of finding out now.  I know many "modelers" whose pride is how many kits they have on their shelves.

More to the point these recent sales has bought to light what a monumental endevour  Martin engaged in in producing the kits.  Has anyone ever counted the number of different kits that Martin produced over the years?  There are some great kits being produced today but nobody approaches the sheer volume that Sunshine offered.

Thank you Martin and Patricia for the mega contribution to the hobby.

Bill Pardie




Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


Re: Youngstown doors (was 7' wide 10' IH Youngstown door for CRP XM-4)

Tim O'Connor
 

Jim in the PNW

Too bad this isn't the MFCL where Dick Dawson probably could explain the technical
differences between different door designs.

You may be correct about the "different times" since I imagine the production machinery
for these steel products probably had to be replaced now and then... so why not tweak
the design?

Another reason might be different production facilities - or even licensed production in other
factories.

Ed Hawkins might know. Or maybe the answer could be found in contemporaneous engineering
publications like Railway Mechanical Engineer.

In general I don't waste time thinking about such things. The 'appearance' of things is all that I
really care about, as a modeler. Why are they the way they are? Meh. :-)




On 7/15/2022 10:51 AM, Jim Betz wrote:

Tim/anyone,
  I'm not challenging the differences - but I have a question ...

  Why would a railroad order/use a 5/6/6 -vs- a 5/6/5 -vs- a 4/6/6 ... etc.?  Other
than a spotting freature why did Youngstown make different configuration for 
a "nominal 10'6" height door?  
  Were these actually made so they would fit 'slight' (?) differences in height?
Done at different times ("evolving technology")?  Some other reason?

  And, for that matter, was there a significant difference between the Youngstown
doors and some other makers?

  Or was it all about the cost ... at a point in time?
                                                                                                      - Jim in the PNW

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: maker of small drill bits (#78, #80) for hand drilling resin kits

Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 09:00 AM, hockenheim68 wrote:
I've used guitar string forever. Cut as described above but also sometimes hammered and stoned to make a spear point if using larger diameter strings.
For reference here is a pic of a spear point used for drilling glass:


This is a carbide tipped tool, the tip is wider than the shank, but doesn't have to be. Also, for use in plastic and resin the elliptical curves aren't needed, as Andrew says, just flatten the end of the steel wire and stone angles to a point.

Dennis Storzek


Re: FS: Westerfield Kit Lot (12)

Patrick Howle
 

SOLD!


Smoky Mtn Model Works NOS kits now available -- list attached

Jim King
 

Instead of creating a web page, I’ve gone the spreadsheet route and saved it as an easily-opened PDF.  See attached.  Prices exclude postage (domestic or international).  Contact me OFF LIST to transact business.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


Photo: PRR Boxcar 79640 (1942)

Bruce Smith
 

Bob,

 

X31A – The only subclass of X31 to have a single door was the X31A, so by default, that’s what she is. 😉

 

Regards,

Bruce Smith

Auburn, Al

 

From: <PRR@PRR.groups.io> on behalf of "Bob Chaparro via groups.io" <chiefbobbb@...>
Reply-To: "PRR@PRR.groups.io" <PRR@PRR.groups.io>
Date: Friday, July 15, 2022 at 10:37 AM
To: "PRR@PRR.groups.io" <PRR@PRR.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] [PRR] Photo: PRR Boxcar 79640 (1942)

 

CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

Photo: PRR Boxcar 79640 (1942)

Photo from the Library of Congress:

https://www.loc.gov/resource/ppmsca.73383/

Scroll to enlarge. Appears to be an X31 but I can’t tell if there is a suffix.

Description:

Parker, Ariz. Apr. 1942. Unloading lumber for construction at the War Relocation Authority center on the Colorado River Indian Reservation for evacuees of Japanese ancestry.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Grab Iron On SFRD 7918

Bob Chaparro
 

Yes. 

Someone else pointed out that the standoff bracket is very slightly bent upward so that might account for the crooked grab iron.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: PRR Boxcar 79640 (1942)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: PRR Boxcar 79640 (1942)

Photo from the Library of Congress:

https://www.loc.gov/resource/ppmsca.73383/

Scroll to enlarge. Appears to be an X31 but I can’t tell if there is a suffix.

Description:

Parker, Ariz. Apr. 1942. Unloading lumber for construction at the War Relocation Authority center on the Colorado River Indian Reservation for evacuees of Japanese ancestry.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: 7' wide 10' IH Youngstown door for CRP XM-4

Jim Betz
 

Tim/anyone,
  I'm not challenging the differences - but I have a question ...

  Why would a railroad order/use a 5/6/6 -vs- a 5/6/5 -vs- a 4/6/6 ... etc.?  Other
than a spotting freature why did Youngstown make different configuration for 
a "nominal 10'6" height door?  
  Were these actually made so they would fit 'slight' (?) differences in height?
Done at different times ("evolving technology")?  Some other reason?

  And, for that matter, was there a significant difference between the Youngstown
doors and some other makers?

  Or was it all about the cost ... at a point in time?
                                                                                                      - Jim in the PNW


FS: Westerfield Kit Lot (12)

Patrick Howle
 

This lot contains the following kits:  1401 (3), 1500, 1601, 1901, 2001, 2301, 2851, 5201, 5202, 5301.
 
Do not know if complete, but all unbuilt.  Eight kits (8) appear undisturbed, four (4) have parts combined in plastic zip back, perhaps inventoried (1401, 1500, 2301, 2851).
 
$300 postpaid w/n US.
 
Contact off group. 
[Moderator's note: Patrick's email address is iggi.geo at yahoo dot com.]

Thanks,

Patrick

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