Date   

Re: Coal Cars

earlyrail <hrgarner@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, tim gilbert <tgilbert@s...> wrote:
JGG KahnSr wrote:

When grain was to be shipped, it would appear that almost any boxcar
that was sound and thoroughly clean without any noxious odors would be
set for loading. In periods of boxcar shortage, shippers had little
leverage in demanding cars from a specific owner.
But railroads did make an effort to ship in certain cars. The Iowa
Railroad Commissioners Report (190?) has several instances where the
complaint was the railroad would not provide a car to ship grain in.
The reason given was that the shipper wanted to ship to a consignee on
the Wabash and the railroad could not get any Wabash empties to fill
the order. They did not want to send their own cars off line.

This was usually resolved by the time the commissioners acted on the
complaint.

Along with milling in transit, do you want to discuss long haul verse
short haul rates?

Howard


Re: Blue XXXX School buses

Jim Wolf
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@a...> wrote:
Besides, does anyone make a model of a steam era school bus??
Yes:

http://www.sptc.spb.ru/photo/carpenter/203.htm

This is a 1/43 scale model made in Russia from
the St. Petersburg Tram Collection:

http://www.sptc.spb.ru/

They've made quite a few models of "steam era" buses
(in the King of Scales, of course) that can be used
as freight car shipments.

Jim Wolf
Otis Orchards, WA


Re: Blue XXXX School buses

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Jim, those buses are much too modern. A modern school bus
is available in HO also, from IHC (ConCor).

I have seen several of the St. Petersburg models up close.
They are magnificent!


Besides, does anyone make a model of a steam era school bus??
Yes:

http://www.sptc.spb.ru/photo/carpenter/203.htm

This is a 1/43 scale model made in Russia from
the St. Petersburg Tram Collection:

http://www.sptc.spb.ru/

They've made quite a few models of "steam era" buses
(in the King of Scales, of course) that can be used
as freight car shipments.

Jim Wolf
Otis Orchards, WA

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@attbi.com>
Sterling, Massachusetts


Tractor Loads

JGG KahnSr <jacekahn@...>
 

Tucked away in the back of my mind is a shot from a magazine of the ex-TE CCW #303 with a flatcar loaded with shiny new green Oliver tractors (about four of them, I think) on its way from the plant to interchange. It's been a long time since I grew up among the farms, but I think Oliver paint was slightly darker than Deere.
Jace Kahn
Mostly Fairbanks

The MILW definitely served the Minneapolis Moline Lake Street plant. I think
that MM also had someting out in Hopkins, Minnesota, and I would not be
surprised that the Milwaukee served that plant, too. As for the Lake Street
plant, I sat in many a Twin City Lines Rapid Transit streetcar as it banged
across the Milwaukee track by the Lake Street factory.

Tom
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Re: ADMIN: A few thoughts before anyone...

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Ron, are you saying it NEVER happened? Can you PROVE they didn't
dig that hole in one second?

I didn't think so.

P.S. With infallible logic like mine, I'm sure to get a job in
the Bush administration.


Conclusion: Therefore, sixty men can dig a post hole in one second.

Adding statistics to this kind of muddled thinking gives a mathematical
certainty to the absurd, making us twice-blessed.

Ron Boham
Ralston, NE

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@attbi.com>
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: ADMIN: A few thoughts before anyone...

Ron Boham <spnut@...>
 

This thread is starting to resemble Ambrose Bierce's definition of a syllogism, containing a major premise, a minor premise, and a conclusion:

Major Premise: Sixty men can do sixty times the amount of work of one man.

Minor Premise: One man can dig a post hole in a minute.

Conclusion: Therefore, sixty men can dig a post hole in one second.

Adding statistics to this kind of muddled thinking gives a mathematical certainty to the absurd, making us twice-blessed.

Ron Boham
Ralston, NE

Tim O'Connor wrote:

Mike Brock wrote

Thus, if I express the view that Union Pacific frt cars are better
than any others and, say, Tim O'connor disagrees stating that SP frt
cars are better [ I only use this as an example, realizing that Tim
probably agrees with me ], and I wish to convince others of the
righteousness of my claim, I must attempt with logic to prove it.
Proving logically that SP freight cars are better than UP freight cars
is trivial.

(1) If a railroad has superior freight cars, then modelers will demand
more accurate models of them.

(2) There are many more accurate models of SP freight cars than of UP
in HO scale (or any other scale that I know of).

(3) Ergo, SP freight cars are superior to UP freight cars.

See? A no-brainer.


Re: Blue XXXX School buses

pieter_roos <pieter.roos@...>
 

Well, here's one...

http://www.trainweb.org/arkansastrains/railroad/wp/WP2243flatwbus/IMG
11480.htm

Yes, I realize it isn't being delivered, it's a work car (and post
steam era at that - sorry). I do have a book on railroads durin WWII
which includes a picture of a city transite type bus being unloaded
from an end-door auto type boxcar. I'm at work, so I don't have
further information. I suspect most vehicles with extensive glass
were carried in enclosed cars if they could fit. OTOH, the RPI site
has a photo of two Ford C Cab REA trucks on a flatcar.

Pieter


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, newrail@s... wrote:
And how many photos of a school bus on a flat car from any era
have
you seen, Tim?? I've seen zero in my 60 years. Does that say it
never
happened? No, but given the number of train, rather than engine,
photos
viewed over the years it cannot have been very common even though
buses
in rural areas have been common since W.W.II. Before that it was
one
room school houses, an opportunity I missed out on being three
years
too young.
Besides, does anyone make a model of a steam era school bus??
What's the matter with the Jordan model, a 1934 Ford 21
passenger job?


Box Car Projections

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

In response to Tim Gilbert's:

How many night time photographs of trains with distinguishable freight
cars have you seen?
Don Valentine replies with:

"What does it matter? Most of the heavy freight in this area moved during
daylight hours except in the shortest days of the year."

From what source does this come from? Just curious.

"But, then, how many
model railroaders run their trains in the dark?"

A surprisingly large number. I don't as a matter of fact....I can't. All my signals turn to red when the ambient light drops.

"There is merit to your
projections, Tim, but I'm certainly not going to get carried away by them."
Getting carried away might imply to follow them expicitly. The data that Tim and Dave Nelson have worked through provides, I think, an excellent projection of box car distribution over a long term compared to any other method we currently have. It seems to me that it is superior compared to visible recollection or photographic data sources...because they are of such much smaller samples. Frt conductor books/wheel reports do not solve all modeling problems though, it seems to me, and they certainly do not project the individual composition of specific frt trains. There appears to be, IMO, possibilities of substantial errors in the projections from just looking at the compositions of frt trains in my frt conductor's book [ i.e., they aren't exceptionally similar ]and the sample rate is extremely small [ i.e., one in about 35 on a given day ]. Nevertheless, it is still the best source from which to derive projections and the errors are likely not so great that they would not serve us well. IMO.

Mike Brock


Re: grain cars (was Coal Cars)

ljack70117@...
 

I have never heard of unloading and reloading on the same waybill. But there is a milled in transit rates. A mill takes in a car of wheat and makes flour and ships it out as the same load and at the grain prices.
Thank you
Larry Jackman

On Wednesday, May 28, 2003, at 10:53 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:


Tim, I think Jace's point was that a lot of grain terminated at
Chicago (and Duluth, and St Louis, and at many other places) where
it could be transferred to lake ships, or river barges. Buffalo
was a trans-shipping point where grain was transferred from ships
to rail cars. So I'd expect the PRR, Erie, DL&W, NYC, BCK, LV,
NKP and B&O to be able to scrounge up enough cars to meet the
need.

There were land-locked storage elevators (Topeka KS for example)
where the kind of unload-reload activity that you describe often
took place. Santa Fe (and others) even had rates structured so
that shippers didn't have to pay for two carloads. They could ship
to the elevator, and then later ship from the elevator to somewhere
else, on a single bill of lading. Not necessarily in the same car.


Jace,

Where did the supply of empty boxcars come from to provide cars for
loading at silo complexes in Chicago, Buffalo, etc., for movements
further east? Were the emptied cars which terminated at those complexes
pulled by the railroads and replaced by other empties for loading?

Tim Gilbert


Re: ADMIN: A few thoughts before anyone...

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:

(2) There are many more accurate models of SP freight cars than of UP
in HO scale (or any other scale that I know of).

Ah ha! My kind of message. Define "accurate" please.

Mike Brock


Re: Coal Deliveries & tractors

david d zuhn <zoo@...>
 

railroads served which factories. I have a vague recollection that
MILW served 2 MM factories in Mpls, but I would not bet on that.
You would have won that bet. Three MM plants existed in the
Twin Cities (Hopkins, Lake Street and Como). I just found out
about the Como plant in a tractor oriented book the other night,
and I don't know where it was (silly tractor restoration people,
they don't talk about how the equipment was shipped to dealers,
or how the railroads served the plants, they just go on and on
about what is the precise color of Prairie Gold)

The Hopkins and Lake Street plants where on the Milwaukee, and
Lake Street was served exclusively by the MILW. The plant was
just to the northeast of the wye at Southtown.

The Hopkins plant was served by the MILW and M&StL both, each on
their own tracks, as I read my Twin Cities Terminal map of 1934.

Both plants will be shuttered in the late sixties, I believe, and
the last tractor from the MM family is to be produced around '73.


--
david d zuhn <zoo@stpaulterminal.org>
Saint Paul Bridge & Terminal Ry.


Re: Coal Deliveries & tractors

Thomas Baker
 

Ted,

The MILW definitely served the Minneapolis Moline Lake Street plant. I think
that MM also had someting out in Hopkins, Minnesota, and I would not be
surprised that the Milwaukee served that plant, too. As for the Lake Street
plant, I sat in many a Twin City Lines Rapid Transit streetcar as it banged
across the Milwaukee track by the Lake Street factory.

Tom


Re: Sylvna kits of CN/GTW steel rebuilds

Stafford Swain <sswain@...>
 

Hi Bill:

Can anyone comment on the Sylvan resin kits that represent steel rebuilds of
CN & GTW single sheathed cars. Comments not just on the casting but quality
of the decals would be appreciated. Clare is an excellent modeler and
person, but I have not built any of his kits to date.
I'm probably one of the key data suppliers to this project but haven't built any of the resultant kits (yet). As a general comment on Sylvan kits, one of their challenges is to ensure that their mould release is addressed before painting. Sylvan sells a special fluid to address this (and a lacquer thinner bath probably would help too!).

I haven't seen the Sylvan decals for these kits so have no comments on same. The alternative CNR lettering source (at this time) would be to acquire the CDS equivalent lettering. In addition to specific car-type sets, CDS has a dimensional data set which would allow you to build your own "correct" dimensional/capacity data and reweigh stuff for any CNR car on a decal sheet (get out the optivisor for this task).

In the longer run, we (as in the CN lines SIG) intend to issue a comprehensive lettering "tool box format" of CNR-family freight car decal material which will feature some of the CNR's varied freight fonts but that project is at least a couple of years away. We do have a top notch set of tilted green maple leaf monograms (four per package) available as CN Lines SIG product 300-8.

Paint-wise there are both Scalecoat 1 and Modelflex versions of CNR Red No. 11 available from dealers. The CN Lines SIG is the distributor of the Scalecoat 1 version which is only available from few U.S. dealers (so far).


I am thinking about doing one of the cars with the Hutchins roof, # HO-1090
if I understand their information correctly. Were the cars in the
470000-470149 group eventually transferred to GTW? The description with the
kits at their web site is unclear.
This is an interesting question. These cars were always rostered, marked and ORER'd as CNR cars. That said, the GTR may have been responsible for all their re-weighs and car maintenance as all the in-service photos I have seen show the station symbol as "VT" (which is Battle Creek MI).


Bill Welch

--
Stafford Swain
26 Kenneth Street
Winnipeg, MB, Canada
R3T 0K8
(204) 477-9246
sswain@mts.net


Re: Coal Cars

tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

JGG KahnSr wrote:

Dear Tim
I think I conjectured that much of the grain traffic into Buffalo came
by
lake freighter from the midwest, where it was stored, some going out
in
regional boxcars as grain, the rest being milled into flour.
There is no evidence that the supply of empty boxcars was restricted to
regional roads only. For instance, there were three feed loadings in
Nov-Dec 1952 for consignees on New Hampshire's Suncook Valley RR: - one
carrying feed in PRR boxcar #90785, another in SAL #4232 and the last in
MP #32665 - PRR #90785 being the only one which I would classify as
"regional."

From St. Albans VT, there were four grain loadings for the SunVal: - one
each in a CN, CP, NKP & UP boxcar.

From Richford VT, there were 16 grain loadings for the SunVal: - seven
in CP boxcars, two in CN, and one each in a PRR, IC, SAL, GBW, FW&DC, SP
and MP.

The incidence of the American-owned boxcars in these Vermont loadings
indicate that these grain loadings were not restricted to regional
roads.

Granted, a mole hill does not make a mountain, but what is the logic
that these boxcars were loaded? The only answer can be would because
they were available. Why were they available? Can the answer of why they
were available be extrapolated into a bigger mole hill?

Probably
a
good portion of the grain arriving in Chicago and Minneapolis also
ended up
being milled before being re-shipped. I'd guess that the grain cars
delivered it to the terminals, but that it was either processed or
stored
for a while, depending on market conditions before needing different
cars.
What is a "grain car?" Every general service boxcar which the B&M owned
in 1920 was described in the ORER's as "Box, Grain." John Nehrich in one
of his NEB&W STEAM ERA FREIGHT CAR GUIDES noted this was the only time
the verbage "Box, Grain" was used in the ORER's. The last B&M "Box,
Grain" was retired in 1955 - the January 1953 ORER still described this
series as "Box, Grain." Why the B&M described these boxcars as Box,
Grain" would be speculation - the most predominant commodity they
carried during their lives was Merchandise.

When grain was to be shipped, it would appear that almost any boxcar
that was sound and thoroughly clean without any noxious odors would be
set for loading. In periods of boxcar shortage, shippers had little
leverage in demanding cars from a specific owner.

Tim Gilbert


Coal Deliveries & tractors

Ted Larson
 

I spent many late 50's - early 60's summer hours watching GN through
and way freights in my small central Minnesota home town. Coal was
delivered to the team track in hoppers (type and roadname unknown).
The local coal dealer brought a gasoline powered wheeled 2 section
unloading conveyor to the site. The first section was placed under a
hopper outlet. It was raised on one end to dump into the second
section which elevated the coal and dropped it into the delivery truck.
The conveyor section that went under the hopper was wide enough so
that there was only a small amount of spillage. Agricultural lime was
unloaded from hoppers the same way. I presume that each customer had
his own unloading conveyor, but I don't KNOW that.

Thanks for the recent comments about tractor factories on the M&STL. I
understand that farm equipment loads could have shipped on anybodies
flat, however I would like to hear additional information about what
railroads served which factories. I have a vague recollection that
MILW served 2 MM factories in Mpls, but I would not bet on that.

=====
Ted Larson

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Re: New England/Northeast Prototype Modelers Meet

Owens, David <DOwens@...>
 

The link Al provided is my original announcement about the move to
Collinsville from Windsor. We had planned to have the meet at a hotel there
but had to change plans after some changes at the hotel. (If anyone is
interested in the details I'd be happy to provide them.)

The new space is a former school that the town of Canton uses for municipal
meetings and what not. It's actually about 100 times better tha the hotel.
The change has allowed us to reduce the meet admission form $25 to $10. (Our
goal is to cover our costs, not make any money. I expect we'll be successful
in that regard!)

If anyone would like directions to the meet site, please email me before
Friday and tell me where you'll be coming from.

Thanks,
Dave Owens

-----Original Message-----
From: Al & Patricia Westerfield [mailto:westerfield@multipro.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 11:42 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com; The Freightcars List
Subject: [STMFC] New England/Northeast Prototype Modelers Meet


I may have missed the announcement, but it was only by chance that I found
the meeting place was moved. It is at the Canton Community Complex, 40 Dyer
Ave., Canton (Collinsville), CT. A customer we were going to meet there
called to say he didn't know where we would be. I suspect others may be in
the same boat. It's this weekend. More info at
http://homepage.mac.com/housatonic/nemodelers.htm - Al




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Re: School buses and Other Loads

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Jace Kahn wrote:
Accordingly, I cannot say with the authority I would like that the LV
had a special long housecar for shipping fire engines from the plant
in Cortland(?) NY. If I am mostly right so far, there must be a
photo in Chuck Yungkurth's book. If I am going gaga, PRR must have
had the special car, and the plant was on the Elmira branch with
the photo in the Coloroso book.

The car is PRR 59861, Class X30, IL 70'6", IH 10'0", built in 1931 to
serve the American LaFrance plant on the Elmira branch. Along with
the photo in the Coloroso book, builders photos of the car
(stenciled "EXPERIMENTAL" vice "PENNSYLVANIA") have appeared in print
(Wayner's Cars of the PRR) and are available from Rich Burg. The car
is essentailly a lengthened Class X28 auto boxcar with an end door,
and wasn't retired until 1975. Two photos of the car as PC 185000
(plus one of the builder's photo) are at the Rail Classics website:

http://www.railclassics.com/freight2.htm

While you're there, consider making a reservation for the car so that
(1) Rail Classics will manufacture it, and (2) Bruce Smith and I can
have one! ;-) Besides, every town needs a fire engine or two...


Ben Hom


New England/Northeast Prototype Modelers Meet

Al & Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

I may have missed the announcement, but it was only by chance that I found
the meeting place was moved. It is at the Canton Community Complex, 40 Dyer
Ave., Canton (Collinsville), CT. A customer we were going to meet there
called to say he didn't know where we would be. I suspect others may be in
the same boat. It's this weekend. More info at
http://homepage.mac.com/housatonic/nemodelers.htm - Al


what went where in whose cars

Thomas Baker
 

The discussion about what in where in M&StL box cars fascinates me.

The more I read the comments, the more I wonder whether the most accurate
information on such matters would not come from conductors' books. I have
photocopied one from 1949-50 on the CGW out of Rochester, Minnesota, mostly
down to McIntire, occasionally to Winona.

I also have a 1937 conductor's book for the same area. Both sources are a
fascinating read. Perhaps others have such books from the steam freight cars
era. In my wildest dreams, I could visualize someone's entering the data for
two or three days, maybe a week. Then we might have some very accurate data
from years on various railroads to give a fair idea of what showed up.

As for M&StL box cars, they showed up quite frequently on the CGW, not
surprising I suppose. Whether they ever showed up in Itchy River, Idaho, or
South Sukkotash, well, we need a book. Anyone care to undertake even a modest
project in this area?

Tom


Re: Coal Docks and Coal Cars

Don Valentine
 

Quoting tim gilbert <tgilbert@sunlink.net>:



How many night time photographs of trains with distinguishable freight
cars have you seen?

What does it matter? Most of the heavy freight in this area moved during
daylight hours except in the shortest days of the year. But, then, how many
model railroaders run their trains in the dark? There is merit to your
projections, Tim, but I'm certainly not going to get carried away by them.

Take care, Don

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