Re: So why are we doing this?
Gail & Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
So.... I see fourteen names in the "Members" list so far, all but two of
whom I either know personally or have had extensive e-mail correspondence with. I'm flattered to be included, but I figure I'm already part of this particular group with or without a new list. I like the thought of some sort of refuge where we can go off and discuss things candidly without being badgered by the Great Unwashed, but we need to be careful - from their viewpoint there's no discernable difference between the Algonquin Round Table and a bunch of elite snobs holding forth in private. There were 199 members in the Passenger Car List when I took it to eGroups in late September. There are now 271. On eGroups you'll be noticed and, like it or not, you'll end up with an uncontrolled body of subscribers. If the purpose of this list is to escape from the newbies, vesties, train set whatevers and general nuisances, there must be some sort of control on who subscribes. I'm not advocating this, just pointing out that when you publicize paradise, it eventually gets overrun. One other thing to watch out for - the archives are open to any subscriber at any time, on out into the future. In these very early posts some of us may be a bit too candid because it's "just among friends". Mike, you might want to think about deleting some of these "board of directors" posts from the archives eventually. Tom "devil's advocate" Madden who thinks the only good freight cars are red, black, orange or yellow, and who favors cutting things off just before the McGinnis NH/B&M color explosions.
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Re: The steam era, 1960
Richard Hendrickson
Tim O'Connor wrote:
So what say you, steam fans? Can I offer you research into HydroframeBOOORING! Let's hear it for Andrews trucks, truss rod underframes, outside metal roofs, and Murphy corrugated ends. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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Re: The steam era, 1960
Mike Brock <brockm@...>
Tim O'Connor...who will probably have to retake his class on steam
history... writes: Didn't UP run steam into 1960? I think 4-8-8-4's would have to qualify1960? UP STILL runs steam. 844...renumbered to 8444 for awhile....has never been removed from the roster. It and 3985 still provide SOME degree of class to today's RRs. OTOH, the last Big Boy ran in '59. Hard to imagine the age of steam to have run to '66 even with UP's single locomotive. The trouble with that date is it a bit arbitrary...with little supporting evidence. Add to that, both Supreme Courts will overrule it. Mike Brock
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Re: The steam era, 1960
Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Mike and all,
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Didn't UP run steam into 1960? I think 4-8-8-4's would have to qualify as legitimate steam... For myself, I prefer the cutoff date of December 1966, when the current appearance of house cars was ordained, i.e. running boards were no longer required on box cars and reefers. Also, by 1966, reefers in ice service had declined precipitously. Some Classic Trains was published in 1964, so that is another milestone date for me, very close to the end of genuine "classy varnish" on western railroads. (The Seattle World's Fair of 1964-1965 was the last high point for NP and GN before the rapid slide towards 1971.) So what say you, steam fans? Can I offer you research into Hydroframe 60 PS-1's, or 90 ton, 4000 cubic foot covered hoppers, or 86 foot box cars, as well as end-of-life dispositions of single sheathed cars and wood ice reefers? All these things happened in the tumultuous early 1960's. To say nothing of piggyback cars and trailers of the 1950's up to 1966!
----- Original Message -----
From: <MDelvec952@aol.com> Subject: [STMFC] The steam era, 1960 It is commonly regarded by the more formal historian and professional museum
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The STMFC...Objectives, Reasons and Processes
Mike Brock <brockm@...>
Guys,
There have been several messages regarding the objectives, reasons for initiating and methodology of the Steam Era Freight Car Group including its relation to the current FCL. A few answers are probably appropriate. First, let me present the description of the group that I have placed in the Egroup description area: "The purpose of this list is to discuss all aspects of North American freight cars of the steam era [ 1900-1960 ]. The objectives include the sharing of information about railroad freight cars including their operation and various techniques of building models of them. Emphasis is to be placed on the study of the prototype with a goal of producing models of them with as great a degree of accuracy as possible." As I mentioned in my introductory message, I have felt for a year or so that a steam era FC list might have advantages. The obvious one is that the range of historical subject matter will be reduced. Currently the completely open range of the FCL allows many more posts than might be produced by one confined to a specific period. A second and, perhaps, more significant advantage is that there is a more specific objective than merely having discussions about freight cars. To use an analogy, one might consider the FCL as the NMRA and the Steam Era Freight Car Group as a SIG. Some have expressed a hope that messages might be greatly reduced. I make no claim for this. After all, I am not exactly innocent of producing strictly technical posts and can run my keyboard with the best. I will attempt to generate an archival capability to perhaps provide a solution for those preferring reduced numbers of posts. It has been pointed out that we see the same subjects discussed every now and then on the FCL. This will no doubt continue but probably to a lesser extent on the STMFC. Jeff Aley asks, "should I just commit the ACF book and RPC to memory?" [ Actually, Jeff is one that just might be able to do it ]. I don't think so. Dave Nelson mentions that we should have "adult opinions and skins." I believe those are admiral traits which we should emulate. However, I would add that we are discussing a hobby. I strongly suggest that we not overlook the value of humor in our discussions. Currently, membership is open without restrictions. As moderator, I can require approval at any time. There has been mention of the time period. I based this on the sad fact that the last Big Boy ran in 1959. I added one yr because I wanted to [ and Richard suggested it ]. I would appreciate any suggestions you guys have regarding the above comments and any other views. I would also mention that, while I will be acting as moderator, I am asking Richard Hendrickson, Tony Thompson, and Tim O'Connor to be unofficial "board" members to keep me in line. I would also ask Jeff Aley and Tim to assist in using the Egroup technical capabilities. Mike Brock STMFC Moderator............now....about those N&W hoppers...
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Re: So why are we doing this?
Richard Hendrickson
Dave Nelson writes:
- I understand opinions vary on when the steam era ended. I think <=1956 isThat's probably about right; some steam survived later, but not much. However, I'm inclined toward ca. 1960 as a cutoff because, give or take a year or two, that was the beginning of what I regard as the modern era: roller bearings, cushion underframes, mechanical reefers, etc. Prior to 1960, only a few more or less experimental cars had those features, and freight car technology wasn't much different than in 1950. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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Re: Used book sites
Richard Hendrickson
Thanks, Jeff. Just what I need - another way to spend money!
Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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Re: Used book sites
Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
In the interest of making the STMFC more useful, I will compile a simple
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document containing links to internet railroad book dealers, and will keep it reasonably up to date, and the document will be maintained in the files area of STMFC. I will start with Jeff's list and a few dozen (!) that I have found myself over the past few years... This is one of the features about egroups that I really like. For example a member of the steamloco group compiled a list of prototypes for HO scale non-brass steam locomotive models. That type of thing has real value, IMO. If people wanted to use STMFC to preview articles, or just "publish" in the files area, I think that would be great! We could use STMFC for serious sharing and collaboration, whereas FCL is for general "probing" for information and modeling chat. P.S. As Jeff notes, there is a difference between booksellers and "index" (or "portal") web sites. I will keep them separate in the list.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@pcocd2.intel.com> To: <STMFC@egroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Used book sites While we're still off topic, you may also find http://www.bibliofind.com/
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Re: So why are we doing this?
Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
As we continue to talk about talking about freight cars, :-) WRT binaries,
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they shouldn't be mailed out, but put in the shared files area. The ReeferMadness list (all refrigerator cars, all the time) does this quite effectively, though most of the images are of (yuk) mechanical reefers. The PrototypeModelers have recently uploaded sections of video (!) that show specific freight car door hardware. [Now *that's* multimedia at its finest!] Regards, -Jeff P.S. Has Harley unsubscribed yet? I don't think we've had an actual freight car discussion yet...
On Dec 12, 7:32pm, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: So why are we doing this? P.P.S. How do people feel about binaries attached to messages? Sometimes --
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com Graphics Components Division Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA (916) 356-3533
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Re: So why are we doing this?
Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
Richard writes on his reasoning for a new group:
1. ... 33,000 gal. tank cars....subscribers who weren't around when they were discussed before.Item 1 can be addressed by establishing a different, group. The only way to deal with item 2 is to keep the new group closed, by invitation only. Dunno if egroups allows for that. Dunno what Mike wants either. At any rate, what I'd like is (no particular order): - Fine scale modeling of freight cars. Model railroading including freight cars is meerly a coincidental interest. I can join Jim Six's group or stay with the FC list would my priorites to reverse. - my personal interests of historical research at the fleet level (ORER, ICC stuff, industrial stuff, etc.) remaining welcome. - All historical material relevant to support fine scale modeling. - Persons having both adult opinions and skins. - I understand opinions vary on when the steam era ended. I think <=1956 is generous. - While not yet an author, I have appreciated and learned from much of the discussion over on the FC list on issues faced by authors of material on these topics. I could go on.... On a technical level, I do like egroups web access, searching capability, file storage, and opinion polling -- very much an improvement compared to FC. Dave Nelson
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Re: So why are we doing this?
Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
I agree with Dick Harley. I would like someplace where there is only serious
discussion of freight cars, and not a lot of chit-chat, and no declarations of one's preference for the "three foot rule" etc. Limiting it to pre-1960 freight cars is not entirely my preference but if that's how you all feel... People like myself and Bill Kelly and Jim Eager are seriously interested in post-1960 freight cars too, and at the moment there is no mailing list other than FCL for that. An egroups moderator has the power to approve or eject subscribers. I have occasionally reminded steamloco members not to stray from the subject of the mailing list, and I haven't noticed any serious violations. Although the recent flareup of discussions of styrene and plastics is kinda pushing the envelope... P.S. Dick, thanks for posting the Union Pacific drawings file. I think that type of information will make the STMFC a useful resource. Dick's "three useful messages a week" sounds like a worthy goal. P.P.S. How do people feel about binaries attached to messages? Sometimes it would be just so much easier to SHOW people what you're talking about rather than try to describe it.
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Re: So why are we doing this?
Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
On Dec 12, 3:27pm, Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: So why are we doing this? 3. I'm tired of the same old topics being discussed at length every fewthe digest to find that out).This, in my opinion, is one of the great weaknesses of Mr. Hosker's list. The last time I tried to search the archives, well, I couldn't. Suppose I want to know how to tell a correct RC R-30-12-9 from the incorrect version. I have no intention of performing 48 different searches for "Red Caboose PFE" (one for each month in the archive). Thus, if I wanted to know, I'd have to ask again. (Actually, I keep my own personal archive of messages that I think will be of future interest. But I shouldn't have to.) Regards, -Jeff -- Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com Graphics Components Division Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA (916) 356-3533
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Re: Used book sites
Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
While we're still off topic, you may also find http://www.bibliofind.com/
to be helpful. Note that neither Advanced Book Exchange (ABE) nor Bibliofind are actual booksellers. Instead they contain listings from many smaller book dealers. As a result, each web site might find the same book. Other search sites: http://www.bookfinder.com/ http://www.ippi.com/antiquarian-archive.html http://www.alibris.com/home.cfm Best of luck! -Jeff On Dec 12, 6:37pm, MDelvec952@aol.com wrote: Subject: Re: [STMFC] Used book sitesthe site is just wonderful. There's hardly a used railway title I couldn'tfind on it. Even found a copy of "Painting of Railway Equipment,"only ever seen one other copy in circulation. I bought it. Two copies ofShay Locomotive are on there -- that's just about the rarest of the rare.-- Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com Graphics Components Division Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA (916) 356-3533
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Re: Attention!
MDelvec952
In a message dated 12/12/00 11:39:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
brockm@brevard.net writes: The STMFC is pleased to announce that Byron Rose will be returning to active"interesting" comments and views for awhile. I look forward to his remarks.I'm on the phone with Byron as we speak, reading him this note. "Now I guess I'm committed," sez he, amongst many other things. He'll be on. ....Mike
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Re: Used book sites
thompson@...
I have gotten the message "refused by server" on this site several timesI tried http://www.abebooks.com/ and found two copies, and someI tried that website and it wouldn't come up. ??? this afternoon. But the URL is presumably good. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history
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Re: Used book sites
Gail & Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
Mike,I tried that website and it wouldn't come up. ??? Try again. Tom M.
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Re: Used book sites
Richard Hendrickson
Mike,I tried that website and it wouldn't come up. ??? Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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Tank Car Journeys
Richard Hendrickson
Dave Nelson wrote, in response to Jeff Aley,
Actually, there are two such books. General American Tank Car Journeys wasFor example, I recently learned that I need to ship sulfuric acid toFind _Tank Car Journeys_ in some used bookstore on the net. It's from the published by GATC in 1931 (under the title it says "Vol. 1" but there never was a second volume). An earlier book was Standard Tank Car Journeys published in 1920 by the Standard Tank Car Co. I have copies of both (but my GATC book is on loand from Tom Madden and I'd like to find a copy of my own). I can copy the sections on specific commodities from either or both for subscribers to this list. Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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Re: So why are we doing this?
Richard Hendrickson
Jeff Aley wrote:
Hmm. I wonder how many others are banned from FCL? Perhaps we shouldI did. Whether he does so remains to be seen. (I'm reminded of the old Groucho Marx line, "I'd never belong to a club which would have me as a member.") Richard H. Hendrickson Ashland, Oregon 97520
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The steam era, 1960
MDelvec952
Dave Nelson writes:is >generous.It is commonly regarded by the more formal historian and professional museum community that the end of the steam era was 1960. The late 1950s still saw some Class 1 steam, while the 1960s saw steam only on a few short lines and in Canada. Rolling stock, too, made a big leap in the 1960s, as Richard pointed out. ....Mike
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