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Re: What colors are on the underside of freight cars?

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rawil Ismail" <p.ismail@worldnet.att.net>

Mike, hope this isn't venturing too far off topic, since the accident
could
have happened in our period of interest, right?
Dirt didn't change color in 1960.

SGL


Re: Milk Industry - Kansas

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: <newrail@sover.net>

Don says, regarding Milk Trains:

Both were really freight
trains and therefore it would seem such equipment and related topics would
be appropriate under this list as well as on a special milk train list. I
gather that Rob Davis is doing a pretty good job with his milk train list
but don't know that it gives him any "exclusive rights" on the topic.
Exclusive rights? I didn't say that. And I don't disagree that we can talk
about Milk Trains too. But like I DID say, "these lists provide the Right
Place To
Go. . . . . Specialists
are worth the price of admission/"

And I still think that's so, especially when you have a specific question,
as I did about horns.

SGL


Re: milk traffic on the CGW

ljack70117@...
 

At the Harding creamery in Salina Ks we shipped in an iced refrigerator car. If the acid in the cream is neutralized correctly the butter will keep for ever at zero degrees and can with stand 45/50 degrees for a month or so. We had a test that we gave our butter. Out of every churn we took a 2lb sample and put it in an incubator. That was an old refrigerator with the turnoff light disconnected and it stayed at 70 degrees. If the butter could stay sweet and not turn rancid in 7 days, it would keep for ever at zero degrees. We did not throw the samples away. We put back in the next dump and reused. If it turned bad it was thrown away and that churn pulled and melted with the next cream dump.
Most of our butter went to the US of A government. We did print a little for the local market.
Thank you
Larry Jackman

On Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 12:51 PM, Denny Anspach wrote:

Tom inquires about the express reefers carrying dairy products from
Rochester, MN to Baltimore.

I agree that fresh milk products probably would not likely withstand such a
long trip, but- butter would!

The next natural question is, HOW would butter have been ordinarily shipped
by rail -- i.e. Land O'Lakes butter on the tables at Houser's in Baltimore.?

Note to SGL: Your remark on Iowa not being in existence in the 1830s and
1840s is true, even though it cuts to the bone. The key clue as to the
correct century was the use of a --bicycle--, an invention not yet seeing
the light of day in the early 19th century. ;-().

Denny


Picard Kits

Larry Smith
 

Does anyone know anything about the cars made by Picard Novelty Co.s car kits. A friend of mine has received four of them. One is a 50 standard roof car, 42' standard roof car and 2 40' round roofs.

Any help will be appreciated.

Larry Smith


Re: Why does this happen?

asychis@...
 

In a message dated 07/13/03 5:58:54 PM Central Standard Time,
billlane@comcast.net writes:

Could someone PLEASE explain this to me?
Bill, there are things in this world that are just unexplainable. I've run
into the same thing, although a bit of a different theme when we sell our PFE
reefers. We offer 1949 and 1953 versions right now and someone will look at
the 1953 version and say, "I can't use those since my cutoff is 1950." So you
direct him to the 1949 version, and he shrugs, picks up that catalog, and walks
away. Explaining the public and their reactions is an interesting study.

Jerry Michels


Re: milk traffic on the CGW

Thomas Baker
 

Denny,

Thanks for your insight: The traffic may well have been butter. During World
War II, the Rochester creamery had a contract with the military to produce
something that was a milk product, quite possibly butter. I had assumed it was
milk, but butter could have endured the longer trip from Rochester to
Baltimore.

Your comment makes sense in the light of what a career railroad man, Rex Beach,
told me. Just north of Oelwein, Iowa, was the town of Sumner, where Westcott &
Winks Dairy held forth for many years. The outfit could have had a different
name in later years. Rex told me that quite often butter went out from the
Dairy in URTX refrigerator cars leased to the CGW. And, of course, Westcott &
Winks once had their own leased refrigerator cars. I believe that Microscale
makes a decal for these, or they did once upon a time.

I have also seen milk cans on station platforms on the CGW in southern
Minnesota. I rode their passenger trains and viewed the scene from the coach
window back in the early Fifties. It would probably be logical that the milk
in such cans went into baggage cars, but I don't know that for sure. It's
possible that it went a relatively short distance in refrigerator cars on a
freight train. At the time, the CGW was still operating regularly scheduled
local freights. At some point in 1952, regularly scheduled local freights
became irregularly scheduled moves operating as extras, and one of the two time
freights out of St. Paul did the local work, too.

Your hypothesis of butter would also fit for the M&StL express refrigerator
cars on the CGW "Mill Cities Limited" back in 1947.

Thanks for the help.

Tom


Re: What colors are on the underside of freight cars?

Rawil Ismail <p.ismail@...>
 

Don Valentine asked about the wreck pictures:
I cannot recall seeing another wreck in the last thirty years as bad as
this one appears to have been. Is the cause known?

The FRA RR Safety Board report is on George Elwood's site at:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/ops/lake-jct.html

In a nutshell, the cause is listed as: "The accident was caused by excessive
speed on a curve due to ineffective braking action. Failure of the EL crew
to conduct the prescribed air brake test was an important causal factor. "

Mike, hope this isn't venturing too far off topic, since the accident could
have happened in our period of interest, right?

Pete Ismail
Colorado Springs, CO


Re: Box Car Red

Don Valentine
 

Quoting HAWK0621@aol.com:

What we don't currently have is a good set of color standards for the
wide range of "freight car red" colors used by the railroads during
the steam era and transition period through the 1950s. If we had a
set of standards, we could at least use it as a point of reference
for discussions such as this.

I wish we had such a standard in terms of a model paint company that
would develop a line of accurate colors (about 6 or 7 shades of
"freight car red" are needed to cover the spectrum without getting
ridiculous splitting hairs) and keep the colors consistently the
same over time. Actually, Branchline Trains has done it, but their
paints are made for commercial application using industrial air-
brushes and the paint cannot be sprayed in the types of airbrushes
that modelers use because of the paint's thick viscosity.
SNIP

Maybe one day Badger Modelflex will produce these colors.

Ed,

The originator of this question, Armand Premo, has asked me this
question many times over as many years and my answer has always been
about the same. That is what railroad, in what year, after how many
months of service and with what kind of lighting on your model
railroad? Several of us have noted the almost impossible number of
variables one must cope with in addressing this issue. Ron Hildebrand
summed it up best in closing his response by noting that "all we can
really hope for is a close approximation at best".

Having noted that let me say this. As I've stated before, I don't
like Badger Modelflex and still honestly feel that Accupaint is the
best thing out there for use on styrene or other plastics. Lacking that
I'd go with Scalecoat II. You suggest the need for six or seven shades
of "freight car red" to address the issue properly. I wonder if you have
tried Accupaint's current offerings and what your thoughts are toward
them? They currently offer #12 Oxide Brown, #39 Alkyd Brown and #54
Rich Oxide Brown that were developed in response to the very sort of
questions being raised here. In addition they offer #9 Cornell Red, #36
Engine Maroon, #37 PRR Maroon, #38 CP Tuscan Red and #53 Deep Red to
vary the possibilities even further. Some of these were not developed
for painting freight cars, I realize, but can be used to provide greater
variation and for mixing.

You also mention feeling Branchline Trains paint was satisfactory
but that it was for commercial use only. Bill Schneider can jump in
here if he feels I'm incorrect because the last time he and I spoke of
this issue I concluded that his paint was coming from the same supplier
Accupaint uses. Thus, if there is a viscosity issue it can be addressed
quite easily. Perhaps we should try to get Branchline and Accupaint
together on this issue, if they do use the same supplier, so that
Accupaint could offer the colors they don't already have that Branchline
uses.

I would be very interested in your comments to these specific
points and may have some additional thoughts upon hearing them, such as
can you provide numbers from the Pantone Color Matching screens for the
colors you wish to have?

Best wishes, Don Valentine


Re: Box Car Red

HAWK0621@...
 

In a message dated 7/13/03 11:49:42 AM, newrail@sover.net writes:

<SNIP>
You also mention feeling Branchline Trains paint was satisfactory
but that it was for commercial use only. Bill Schneider can jump in
here if he feels I'm incorrect because the last time he and I spoke of
this issue I concluded that his paint was coming from the same supplier
Accupaint uses. Thus, if there is a viscosity issue it can be addressed
quite easily. Perhaps we should try to get Branchline and Accupaint
together on this issue, if they do use the same supplier, so that

Accupaint could offer the colors they don't already have that Branchline
uses.
Don,

I've used Accupaint and I like it the best of all model paints I've tried. I
get smooth finishes and consistently good results. Some of Accupaint's
existing colors are quite accurate for some "freight car red" shades, particularly
the oxide shades of Oxide Brown and Rich Oxide Brown. They match some ACF paint
samples from the 1940s-1950s such as ACL, L&N, SL-SF, MKT, UP, and others.

The biggest problem I find with Accupaint is its availabilty and shelf life.
I've seen bottles that have virtually evaporated over time while on the hobby
shop rack because of the use of alcohol in the mixture. About one year ago I
had a lengthy phone conversation with the owner of Accupaint. Unfortunately, he
wasn't interested in expanding his paint line at the time. Accupaint contains
solvent base ingredients that are "hazardous" materials such as MEK in the
thinner and is cause for me to find other options.

I would much prefer to use water based paints if I could ever figure out how
to spray them with consistently good results. Maybe I just don't get it, but I
have never been able to spray Badger Modelflex with consistently good
results. The other issue is a relatively limited selection of "freight car red"
shades that Modelflex offers. I've been in personal contact with one of their
representatives and they also seem to be disinterested in adding prototypically
accurate freight car colors to their product line.

Regarding the shades of "freight car red" used by Branchline Trains, I
understand the paints used are water base and specially prepared for them by a
company in California. The colors provide a nice range of accurate freight car red
shades for newly painted cars. Included are several oxide shades, red-browns,
and mineral brown. All original colors except one was matched from ACF paint
samples from various paint manufacturers like Dupont, Sherwin-Williams,
Glidden, and PPG. The other more recent addition was specifically for Pennsy cars,
which was actually a 50/50 mix of two other existing colors that was believed to
better represent new PRR box cars.

Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: milk traffic on the CGW

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Tom inquires about the express reefers carrying dairy products from Rochester, MN to Baltimore.

I agree that fresh milk products probably would not likely withstand such a long trip, but- butter would!

The next natural question is, HOW would butter have been ordinarily shipped by rail -- i.e. Land O'Lakes butter on the tables at Houser's in Baltimore.?

Note to SGL: Your remark on Iowa not being in existence in the 1830s and 1840s is true, even though it cuts to the bone. The key clue as to the correct century was the use of a --bicycle--, an invention not yet seeing the light of day in the early 19th century. ;-().

Denny


Re: What colors are on the underside of freight cars?

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/new06-12jul.html

Look at 7 July, "EL Wreck" photos. An ugly scene, but the answer's there.

SGL
Well, AN answer may be there. There is no one answer. I have a much
better photo than any of those of an overturned box car in the 1970's
with a bright blue underbody -- floor, underframe, everything. I do
not think there was anything like total consistency in this matter.
We have seen photos of totally unpainted floors, painted floors, and
lots of very dirty floors. Dirt prevails -- but it is not the only
condition to be found.

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: What colors are on the underside of freight cars?

Don Valentine
 

Quoting Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@ix.netcom.com>:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/new06-12jul.html

Look at 7 July, "EL Wreck" photos. An ugly scene, but the answer's
there.
Pray tell, where? Other than the bottom of a Southern boxcar in which
the floor appears to have been painted, or to have weathered, to the same
shade as everything else under the car about all I can see is what you
rightly describe as "an ugly scene". I cannot recall seeing another wreck
in the last thirty years as bad as this one appears to have been. Is the
cause known?

Thanks, Don Valentine


What colors are on the underside of freight cars?

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/new06-12jul.html

Look at 7 July, "EL Wreck" photos. An ugly scene, but the answer's there.

SGL


Re: Milk Industry - Kansas

Don Valentine
 

Quoting Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@ix.netcom.com>:


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Miener" <Roger.Miener@worldnet.att.net>

For crying out loud, there is actually a list devoted to milk trains?
**snip** I think that these lists are getting to be a little bit too
special. Yes?

No.

When you have a specific question, these lists provide the Right Place
To Go.
Aw, c'mon Schuyler. While it appears not to be the case in the rest of
the country, we both know that here in the northeast (N.Y. and Pa. as well
as New England in this instance) some milk trains were really little more
than freight trains dedicated to one commodity or business with an
accomodation coach tacked onto the rear end. The Rutland's "Tin Can" and
B&M Trains #49 and #49 are good examples of this. Both were really freight
trains and therefore it would seem such equipment and related topics would
be appropriate under this list as well as on a special milk train list. I
gather that Rob Davis is doing a pretty good job with his milk train list
but don't know that it gives him any "exclusive rights" on the topic.

Best wishes, Don Valentine


Re: Milk Trains List was Milk Industry - Kansas

mbcarson2002
 

______________________________________________________________________

Roger Miener, wrote in part;
"For crying out loud, there is actually a list devoted to milk
trains?......
I think that these lists are getting to be a little bit too special.
Yes?"

NO!

Your mileage and interests may vary, Roger. But I find the idea of a
list devoted to milk trains, no stranger than a list specializing in
freight cars from the first half of the 20th century. I belong to both
lists and find both useful and interesting.

From the information about Bowman's Dairy in your e-mail, it sounds like
you have something to contribute to the milk trains list.

Regards, Mike Carson


Re: Milk Industry - Kansas

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Miener" <Roger.Miener@worldnet.att.net>

For crying out loud, there is actually a list devoted to milk trains?
This is bizarre. **snip** I think that these lists are getting
to be a little bit too special. Yes?
No.

When you have a specific question, these lists provide the Right Place To
Go. Roger, would you go to your local library to look up the laws for the
cases you're responsible for? No. You go to your law library. Specialists
are worth the price of admission, and price of admission to the University
of Milk Cars is, in this case, pretty damn low.

Now when I had some Very Specific Questions about locomotive horns (properly
called air whistles, don't you know?) I joined the appropriate Yahoo list,
lurked for a couple weeks to get the drift, and asked my questions. Got
good, worthwhile answers, and got the heck out of there. (Not that they're
strange people, or anything. Complaining about their neighbors in the
condominium who complain about their blowing their "air whistles" at 2 AM .
. . !!)

SGL


colour?

Ted Larson
 

re: matching color; my daughter's car has a replacement fender. The
color is a dead on match............... in some lighting! In other
lighting, it is obviously way off. Both lighting situations are
outdoor lighting!!!! The lighting variation is due to time of day and
cloudy vs sunny. These differences both change the spectrum of the
natural light, and therefore change what you see reflected from your
favorite paint job. If you want to explore the reason, type
"metamerism" into your browser.
http://www.colormatters.com/des_meta.html

=====
Ted Larson

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Re: Milk Industry - Kansas

Roger Miener <Roger.Miener@...>
 

Ben Horn informs ...

Rod, you might want to post this question to the Milk Trains group -
to
subscribe, e-mail milktrains-subscribe@yahoogroups.com .
For crying out loud, there is actually a list devoted to milk trains?
This is bizarre. Will there then soon be a list devoted solely to
milk trains that served Bowman Dairy in Chicago? Bowman's slogan,
"Bowman on milk is like sterling on silver." Geesh, talk about half
the distance to the goal line -- I think that these lists are getting
to be a little bit too special. Yes?

Roger Miener
at Tacoma WA


Re: Milk Industry- Kansas

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@macnexus.org>

As a child in the '30s and '40s I visited my dear grandparents, aunts and
uncles in Ida Grove, Iowa for long periods of time.
I'm amazed, Denny. In the 1830's and 1840's, Iowa wasn't even called Iowa .
. .

8^)

SGL


milk traffic and butter

Charles Morrill <badlands@...>
 

My dad worked as a butter maker at a creamery in Browns Valley, Minnesota in
the late 20s and early 30s. His dad was one of the drivers who drove a
truck around the farms to pick up 5, 8, and 10 gal cans of cream that had
been separated at the farms. He also picked up cans that came in by train
at the depot. None of this was refrigerated and sometimes a can lid would
be blown off by the gas from the souring (which probably didn't help the
inside of a baggage car either). All this stuff was pasturized and made
into butter and then packed into wooden tubs. The tubs were then trucked to
the team track and loaded into a reefer --- this time with ice. Dad says
the reefers went to Land-O-Lakes for packaging --- he still buys
Land-O-Lakes brand to this day.
Charlie

167381 - 167400 of 188621