Date   

Re: K auxiliary air tanks

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: <CBarkan@...>
:

<< It is quite possible, as others have mentioned, that this reservoir was
utilized for air equipment in MOW use. >>

It makes sense to me in an early era when the only feasible source of
power
to provide air supply was the locomotive, that some way to use this for
secondary purposes on the train might be considered, but there are
complications.

The only way I can imagine this being done is if use of the "auxiliary"
reservoir for powering other equipment in no way compromised or put at
risk the air
supply needed for its intended purpose, namely stopping the car (train).
I
cannot imagine it being the same reservoir used for braking. The
auxiliary
would have to be plumbed into the car's air system with some kind of
additional
valving to ensure it was isolated from the brake system. Presumably there
would also have to be operating rules about when and how the air supply
was used
or replenished.
Well, Chris, you certainly do have a handle on how to set this up . . .

It strikes me as much more likely that since these are specialized cars in
specialized trains, that a second air line would be used for all this,
akin to
remote-controlled hopper doors on some ballats cars, and often on
passenger
cars I guess.
But, you can't be sure that the entire train sent out to any one specific
location to do this work will be the same every time, nor that the cars will
be in the proper order to permit that. Since this was a tender to a crane
(IIRC) then it would be likely to be spotted in a single location, mostly,
and used in a single spot. And indeed, use of air compressors is something
I would think might not have been common until maybe in the late 40's or
50's. And not on all roads even then.

SGL


Re: NWU Transportation Library report

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

Harvard also requires permission to publish research results based
on their materials.
Let's see them try to enforce THAT!

SGL


Re: Open boxcar doors and operations

ljack70117@...
 

Or one opened by a Hobo. You can spot the MTY ones even with the door closed by the fact they did not have a seal on them.
Thank you
Larry Jackman

On Sunday, July 20, 2003, at 02:06 PM, James Wolf wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., newrail@s... wrote:

When I was a young brakeman in the late 60's, old timers (from the
Steam Era of course) taught me never to pull an empty from an
industry unless the doors were closed. I saw this practice
deteriorate drastically during my career. Also, I was taught to
make sure that there was no dunnage in the cars before I pulled
them, and this also began to deteriorate in the MFCL period.

In yards, conductors used to walk their trains prior to departure,
and I've seen them demand that the car department close doors prior
to departing. I think that deviation from this practice began in
the MFCL period. The rare open doors that you may see in a video or
picture in the Steam Era are probably cars that weren't latched
correctly (everyone makes mistakes or the latch was worn), and came
open in transit.

Jim Wolf
Otis Orchards, WA


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Re: Open boxcar doors and operations

Jim Wolf
 

--- In STMFC@..., newrail@s... wrote:
Quoting David Soderblom <drs@s...>:

I suspect we need information on operational practices to answer
this,

but my guess is that you'd see more open doors in locals that
gather
the empty cars. After they're cleaned and checked at the major
yard,
the RRs closed the doors before they hit the main line. Hence
both
observations are correct, yet incomplete.
When I was a young brakeman in the late 60's, old timers (from the
Steam Era of course) taught me never to pull an empty from an
industry unless the doors were closed. I saw this practice
deteriorate drastically during my career. Also, I was taught to
make sure that there was no dunnage in the cars before I pulled
them, and this also began to deteriorate in the MFCL period.

In yards, conductors used to walk their trains prior to departure,
and I've seen them demand that the car department close doors prior
to departing. I think that deviation from this practice began in
the MFCL period. The rare open doors that you may see in a video or
picture in the Steam Era are probably cars that weren't latched
correctly (everyone makes mistakes or the latch was worn), and came
open in transit.

Jim Wolf
Otis Orchards, WA


Re: NWU Transportation Library report

pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

Dave Nelson wrote:
So counting airfare, car, etc., I spent about $500 in order to
spend ~$25 at
a copy machine (at 8 cents a page). Go figure. 8-)
The plight of the serious researcher. Trips to the Newberry cost me a
minimum of $100 a day just to be there (if I stay in a fleabag
hotel), plus whatever it costs to get there. Flying, driving and
Amtrak all cost about the same, considering the expense of a night on
the road each way if driving, and an extra night in Chicago if
arriving late afternoon on Amtrak.

It's not the cost, it's the value of the information you can
retrieve. And your research becomes more and more efficient with each
visit.

Tom M.


NWU Transportation Library report

Dana and Larry Kline <klinelarrydanajon@...>
 

Dave Nelson wrote << Harvard and Stanford also have Copeland material and it
would not surprise me if all three collections are largely complementary
(i.e., few duplicates).>>

I have used the Copeland holdings at both Harvard and Northwestern
University. I was mainly interested in the Copeland info on WM and
connections and other Alphabet Route roads. I found that the WM holdings
are nearly identical at Harvard and NWU.

The NWU library staff was helpful to me right away, but I had emailed in
advance. The Harvard Business School library is a lot less relaxed. I had
to buy copies and have them mailed, and they officially belong to Harvard
forever. Harvard also requires permission to publish research results based
on their materials.

Bob Johnson and Chris Barkan were with me on one of my two NWU Library trips
and the both used the large copy machine to copy B&O and PRR traffic density
maps and interchange reports.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA


Re: G31 gondolas

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Greg Martin writes

Nonetheless, there is one coming. It will be a craftsman kit but not resin.
The toy train enthusiast can deal with the old Revel tooling.
Craftsman, but not resin??? That sounds so retro. What is it, wood?

<grin>

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Open boxcar doors and operations

Don Valentine
 

Quoting David Soderblom <drs@...>:

I suspect we need information on operational practices to answer this,

but my guess is that you'd see more open doors in locals that gather
the empty cars. After they're cleaned and checked at the major yard,
the RRs closed the doors before they hit the main line. Hence both
observations are correct, yet incomplete.

Good point! Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Best wishes, Don Valentine


Re: NWU Transportation Library report

CBarkan@...
 

In a message dated 7/20/03 12:51:08 PM, klinelarrydanajon@...
writes:

<< Bob Johnson and Chris Barkan were with me on one of my two NWU Library
trips

and the both used the large copy machine to copy B&O and PRR traffic density

maps and interchange reports.>>

Indeed I was and did. The BIG copier was finicky to use as I recall but well
worth the price. I think I recall that they didn't charge for the screw-ups,
but that may have been the particular individual overseeing us that day. I
concur that the NWU library staff were quite friendly and helpful. It was a
pleasure to be there. I think Larry's advance notification to them that we
wished to visit helped, and is a reasonable courtesy to extend to library staff
when one plans to use unusual, or difficult to access materials.

I also have a vague recollection that at least for the B&O, the tonnage maps
allowed one to distinguish between coal, and all other traffic using
color-coded marks. I also recall this wasn't the case for all roads. And I may be
thinking of another B&O tonnage map I once saw.

Chris

P.S. Wasn't Tony T. with us as well Larry?


Re: Open boxcar doors and operations

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Just sampling panoramic yard photos, open doors were rather rare in the
1940's and 1950's, but not unusual by the 1960's. I recently watched a
1980's SP tape showing a mainline freight running with MANY box cars
with open doors. (Double door cars, no less!) So maybe people's ideas
are affected by more recent memories rather than examination of photos
from the steam era. In the 1950's there were still people who worked
on the ground in railroad yards who could close the doors!


I suspect we need information on operational practices to answer this,
but my guess is that you'd see more open doors in locals that gather
the empty cars. After they're cleaned and checked at the major yard,
the RRs closed the doors before they hit the main line. Hence both
observations are correct, yet incomplete.

David Soderblom
Baltimore MD

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Open boxcar doors and operations

David Soderblom
 

I suspect we need information on operational practices to answer this, but my guess is that you'd see more open doors in locals that gather the empty cars. After they're cleaned and checked at the major yard, the RRs closed the doors before they hit the main line. Hence both observations are correct, yet incomplete.

David Soderblom
Baltimore MD

On Sunday, Jul 20, 2003, at 04:21 US/Eastern, STMFC@... wrote:

_______________________________________________________________________ _
_______________________________________________________________________ _

Message: 20
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:26:56 -0400
From: "Steven Delibert" <STEVDEL@...>
Subject: Re: Working doors on box cars

closable. OTOH, a review of 4 frt trains in the Big Boy Collection video,
of 254 box cars rolling >past the camera, only one had a partially open
door. At least one train is headed west with...I'm >pretty

Then the video is a bad sample, or practices varied from region to region,
or UP ran an unusually tight ship (certainly not unbelievable) -- I think
the rules always said that cars weren't to be moved with doors open (keep
the hobos out), but (mostly in The Empire State) I rarely saw a train in the
40's-50's-60's without at least a couple of wide-open boxcars in it --
especially noticeable because they were so fascinating as they came abreast
and you could look through to daylight on the other side.

Steve Delibert


David Soderblom
Operations and Data Management Division
Space Telescope Science Institute


Re: What's next to fall?

Greg Martin
 

Tony writes

Actually, Greg, SP bought a bunch of gons from AC&F which were very similar
to the G31, not too hard a kitbash if we had a styrene G31.
Tony and all,

Nonetheless, there is one coming. It will be a craftsman kit but not resin.
The toy train enthusiast can deal with the old Revel tooling.

Greg Martin


Re: What's next to fall?

Greg Martin
 

Tim Writes...

Greg,

I think this idea that a road-specific design can't pay for itself may be
wrong...
Tim's write I help promote and develop the R50B with Walthers then make a
statement like this... 3^) your exactly right Tim we do need more road specific
cars and we will just have to bring the project tot he producers.

Greg Martin


Re: K auxiliary air tanks

CBarkan@...
 

In a message dated 7/19/03 9:48:24 PM, Guycwilber@... writes:

<< It is quite possible, as others have mentioned, that this reservoir was
utilized for air equipment in MOW use. >>

It makes sense to me in an early era when the only feasible source of power
to provide air supply was the locomotive, that some way to use this for
secondary purposes on the train might be considered, but there are complications.

The only way I can imagine this being done is if use of the "auxiliary"
reservoir for powering other equipment in no way compromised or put at risk the air
supply needed for its intended purpose, namely stopping the car (train). I
cannot imagine it being the same reservoir used for braking. The auxiliary
would have to be plumbed into the car's air system with some kind of additional
valving to ensure it was isolated from the brake system. Presumably there
would also have to be operating rules about when and how the air supply was used
or replenished.

It strikes me as much more likely that since these are specialized cars in
specialized trains, that a second air line would be used for all this, akin to
remote-controlled hopper doors on some ballats cars, and often on passenger
cars I guess.

With regard to the model that prompted the original question, if the latter
is the case, the piping connections would be completely isolated from the brake
air system. If all you are going on is one of those (in)famous F&C diagrams,
I would suggest you keep looking for more authoritative and complete
prototype info. We still haven't heard what this model is intended to represent.

Chris


Re: Working doors on box cars

Steven Delibert <STEVDEL@...>
 

closable. OTOH, a review of 4 frt trains in the Big Boy Collection video,
of 254 box cars rolling >past the camera, only one had a partially open
door. At least one train is headed west with...I'm >pretty

Then the video is a bad sample, or practices varied from region to region,
or UP ran an unusually tight ship (certainly not unbelievable) -- I think
the rules always said that cars weren't to be moved with doors open (keep
the hobos out), but (mostly in The Empire State) I rarely saw a train in the
40's-50's-60's without at least a couple of wide-open boxcars in it --
especially noticeable because they were so fascinating as they came abreast
and you could look through to daylight on the other side.

Steve Delibert


Re: K auxiliary air tanks

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "labuell51" <lbuell@...>

Schuyler

I am going to have to disagree.
That's OK. We don't have to agree.

SGL


Re: K auxiliary air tanks

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

At 04:59 PM 7/19/03 +0000, "armand premo" <armprem@...> wrote:

Denny ,Is it a split K brake? A

No. It is a standard K combined cylinder-reservoir, but with a diagram with a separate air tank on the other side of sill (the stick diagram furnished by F&C shows the tank to be good sized, about the same as the combined AB reservoir. There are no other details, either by diagram or in text.

As mentioned the car is a boom car (for a derrick). It is a NYC prototype that was cobbled together from pieces of an ancient caboose plunked down into an ancient c. wwI fish-belly gondola. It is a pretty interesting model, generally, but it sure lacks the completeness of instructions one is used to expect from Sunshine or Westerfield.

SGLs surmise that added air capacity for air tools might be a legitimate reason for more air tank capacity has the ring of plausibility.

Denny


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Re: Working doors on box cars

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Don Valentine writes about open doors:

"My experience is quite different than this, Bill. I would say that
as many as 10% to 15% of the doors could be found open. It is aslo another
way to present an empty car so why not?"

Well, of course, if the modeler wishes to have the door closed, he merely closes the door if its closable. OTOH, a review of 4 frt trains in the Big Boy Collection video, of 254 box cars rolling past the camera, only one had a partially open door. At least one train is headed west with...I'm pretty certain MT SP box cars...36 of them in a train of 58 box cars...and only one has the partially open door. That makes only 0.39% of them with open doors. Pretty solid evidence against needing to model open doors to any extent. I'm with Ben Hom and others. Separate but not movable.

Mike Brock


Re: What's next to fall?

Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 7/19/03 5:28:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
newrail@... writes:

<< We are also trying to
incorporate a new feature with it that will in all likelihood persuade
most modelers that separate doors are a necessary requirement. >>

Also...please offer the tack boards and placard boards as separate castings.
This will allow for easy (post 1954) placements on rebuilt cars.

MOST "modelers" won't note that difference just as they aren't aware that the
ARA/AAR interchange rules required that box car doors be shut and secured
while in transit. Consider helping to persuade them via a few educational notes
within your kit instructions.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Sparks, Nevada

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