Date   

Re: Early piggyback cars

thompson@...
 

Mont Switzer said:
Tony: Securing a semi-trailer on a flat car against movement while in
transit is somewhat like building a resin kit. It takes some patience,
techniques are developed and of course an understanding of what is being
achieved is necessary. A two man crew in the real world could tie down
a trailer in less than an hour (I've read somewhere 10 minutes, but I do
not believe it) so we can do it in HO scale in that amount of time or
less with a little planning and know how.
Of course, correct tie-down is essential to a correct model. I meant to
suggest that if one thought the Athearn 48' flat car was an adequate model
of a 53' 6" car by adding a few details, one might as well glue on the
trailers.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Dominion cars

Don Valentine
 

Another Crass Commercial Announcement


Should anyone care to see them, the latest newsletter has been uploaded
to our website, which you can find at either www.newenglandrail.com or
www.pullmancars.com, and it contains three photos of the Dominion car test
shots. Yes, this is the one found to be undersized that is now about 80%
redone. It is, however, wholly proportionally correct. Thus, without putting
a scale rule on it to check the size you would not know the difference. I
am pleased with what was achieved other than the size issue which is being
corrected now. The three photos should give you an idea of the high standard
for the details as well as how the final car will go together. The molded on
grabs, by-the-way, scale out to less than 1 1/2 in. thick and come off in no
time for those wishing to substitute wire grabs. Additionally, matching paint
is available from the CNR SIG group for any touch up work required therefrom.

If you scroll further down in the same Newsletter you can also find
samples of our poured resin NYC Baggage Cars converted from Pullman Troop
Sleepers and the REA Express Refrigerator converted from them as well.

If anyone has any comments of questions they can e-mail directly.

Thank you, Don Valentine
New England Rail Service


Re: SP TOFCEE Flats

Don Valentine
 

Quoting Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>:


Piggypackers and straddle cranes came later. Also, don't forget
that until the mid-1960's, railroads maintained TOFC ramps all over
the place. You could load a trailer in Keokuk, Iowa and ship it to
Green River, Wyoming for Pete's sake.

Excuse me, Tim, but I believe in that case it's for Uncle Pete's
sake rather than just Pete's!

Take care, Don Valentine


Re: Steam Era "Piggyback" Flatcars

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote regarding PRR Class F30D:
I believe many (if not all) of these cars eventually were lettered
TTX and some may have even received yellow paint.

86 (of 115) Class F30D cars were purchased by Trailer Train in 1956,
modified by installing ACF hitches, removing the side stakes,
replacing the original rub rails with ones made out of steel angle-
iron, and installing roller bearing trucks. The new number series
became TTX 475001-475086. TTX also purchased 200 Class F30A flatcars
from PRR and converted them to piggyback service (TTX 475087-475286,
Class F30G). (All of this is from from the Mike Nesladek's Autumn
1992 Keystone article.)


Ben Hom


Re: Steam Era "Piggyback" Flatcars

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Denny wrote

Stan Rydarowicz sells very attractive finely-built lasercut "fences"
that converts a series of Bowser PRR flats for early piggyback use.
Yes, he does. These are the rub rails applied to the F30D conversions.
Stan had a very attractive model on display at Naperville. I believe
many (if not all) of these cars eventually were lettered TTX and some
may have even received yellow paint.

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Ulrich flat car (was Steam Era "Piggyback" Flatcars)

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Denny Anspach wrote

In my grab bag there is an unlettered short Ulrich cast metal HO
"piggyback" flat car. Without any real thought, I have always
presumed that it was an SP prototype, but in truth, do not really
know. Does anyone know anything about this ancient model?
Denny, it's definitely not a model of an SP TOFC flat --
but having said that, I don't know about the flat car by
itself. If I could get a good, clear detail picture of an
Ulrich flat car I could figure out if it was an SP design.
The SP did have some short flats (e.g. F-50-16).


Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: "Steam Era" Piggyback Flatcars

Rich Chapin <rwc27q@...>
 

Larry,

Where was that Jeff Wilson article on cutting down the Walthers trailers
published?

Rich Chapin


Re: SP TOFCEE Flats

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Piggypackers and straddle cranes came later. Also, don't forget
that until the mid-1960's, railroads maintained TOFC ramps all over
the place. You could load a trailer in Keokuk, Iowa and ship it to
Green River, Wyoming for Pete's sake. That "retail" attitude changed
and evolved into today's long-haul "wholesale" service. But it's good
for us STMFC modelers, because we can have 2-to-3 car piggyback ramps
and still be prototypical!


I think what you were trying to say [the design benefit of the Clejan flat
car greatly reduced the loading and unloading time] . This was very true
with circus stile of ramps. The major demise of the Clejan flat was the
concept of the side loader "Piggypacker", which was promoted by Lloyd
Nations Asst General Manager TOFC system at the time. With a side loader
you could load or unload a trailer in 1.5 minutes and you had the additional
benefit that you could selective load or unload and Hot Traffic first
regardless of where in the consist it was located.

Paul C. Koehler

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: A few available cars known to be in piggyback service

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Mike Brock wrote:
...but I only took the time to research UP flats.

Fine - I'll just do the Pennsy flats (in HO) then. ;-)

PRR 475300-475549, Class F30D, 115 cars (see Autumn 1992 Keystone for
specific car numbers). Stan's "fences" for the Bowser flat that Dr.
Anspach mentioned earlier are for these cars.

PRR 470400-470599, Class F39, 200 cars
PRR 470600-470749, Class F39A, 150 cars
PRR 470800-470899, Class F39A, 100 cars
PRR 470750-470799, Class F39B, 50 cars
All cars to TTX in 1956.
Walthers 75 ft TOFC flat. Detailing upgrades including side stakes
(and tie-downs for earlier cars) for Class F39/F39A; Class F39B
requires side sill modifications and all-wood decks. Models are out
of production but can be found on dusty hobby shop shelves or eBay.
Walthers also offered a PRR 3-pack with "Pennsy TrucTrain" signs
which only appeared in PRR and Bethlehem Class F39 promotional
photos, then removed.


Ben Hom


SP TOFCEE Flats

Larry Smith
 

Paul

The demise of the Clejans wasn't due to the piggy packer as that concept didn't really get going until the 70s, outside the scope of this group. It was the ACF collapseable hitch along with the special equipment required by Clejans. This was also the reason that other early experiments with various forms of piggy backing failed, such as the NYC Flexivan service and the C&O trailers running behind passenger trains. With the advent of the collapsable hitch and the getting away from the concept of bobmproofing the trailers in a wreck the whole method of laoding the trailers became much simpler.

Larry Smith


Re: SP TOFCEE Flats

Larry Smith
 

The special equipment on the trailers wasn't the only problem. The
tractors that loaded the trailers had to also be specially equipped.
That meant that you had to have at least one specially equipped tractor
at each of the terminals.

Larry Smith


BuyGone Treasures wrote:

Tony and all;

An additional problem with the Clejan cars was that all trailers had to be
equipped with special dolly wheels under the rear axles. With out these you
could not load the trailer on the car. This was a costly modification to
the trailers. There was also the problem of these dolly wheels coming off
during their highway trips and causing lawsuits.

Paul C. Koehler

-----Original Message-----
From: thompson@... [mailto:thompson@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 10:24 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] SP TOFCEE Flats




Were these the Clejan flats that had compatibility problems after standards
had been agreed on by the roads?

Sure, though SP's company trailers were Clejan-equipped and could be
handled on Clejans or conventional flats. The real problem was that the
Clejans were too short.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history




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Re: Steam Era "Piggyback" Flatcars

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

In my grab bag there is an unlettered short Ulrich cast metal HO "piggyback" flat car. Without any real thought, I have always presumed that it was an SP prototype, but in truth, do not really know. Does anyone know anything about this ancient model?

Stan Rydarowicz sells very attractive finely-built lasercut "fences" that converts a series of Bowser PRR flats for early piggyback use.

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Re: SP TOFCEE Flats

BuyGone Treasures <buygone@...>
 

Tim and all;

I think what you were trying to say [the design benefit of the Clejan flat
car greatly reduced the loading and unloading time] . This was very true
with circus stile of ramps. The major demise of the Clejan flat was the
concept of the side loader "Piggypacker", which was promoted by Lloyd
Nations Asst General Manager TOFC system at the time. With a side loader
you could load or unload a trailer in 1.5 minutes and you had the additional
benefit that you could selective load or unload and Hot Traffic first
regardless of where in the consist it was located.

Paul C. Koehler

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor [mailto:timoconnor@...]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 8:50 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] SP TOFCEE Flats



I think the design benefit of the Clejans was greatly reduced
loading and unloading time. Remember, they were introduced before
the now-familiar collapsible hitches. SP continued to buy Clejans
in the late 1950's even though modern hitches by then were in use.
Probably the reasoning was to make use of their existing investment
and not to have two types of equipment in the terminals... But they
were phased out rapidly after 1960 and as Tony said many were used
for autoracks, and some became VTTX (container) flats and ran into
the 1990's. I have a picture I took of one in Worcester MA about
10 years ago.


An additional problem with the Clejan cars was that all trailers had to be
equipped with special dolly wheels under the rear axles. With out these
you
could not load the trailer on the car. This was a costly modification to
the trailers. There was also the problem of these dolly wheels coming off
during their highway trips and causing lawsuits.

Paul C. Koehler

-----Original Message-----
From: thompson@... [mailto:thompson@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 10:24 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] SP TOFCEE Flats


Were these the Clejan flats that had compatibility problems after
standards
had been agreed on by the roads?
Sure, though SP's company trailers were Clejan-equipped and could be
handled on Clejans or conventional flats. The real problem was that the
Clejans were too short.

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Re: "Steam Era" Piggyback Flatcars

Larry Smith
 

August, 2001

Larry Smith

newrail@... wrote:

Quoting Larry Smith <wooddale@...>:
There is an excellent


article by Jeff Wilson on taking the Walthers' trailer and changing it
to an open top and horizontal rib trailer for the 50s to add variety to
them.


Where might one find this article?

Thanks, Don Valentine


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Re: SP TOFCEE Flats

pieter_roos <pieter.roos@...>
 

At least on the New Haven the railroad had the dollys for the Clejan
cars available at the terminals to be bolted on any trailers not so
equipped. Clearly this cut into any speed improvement in loading
time, as well as adding an expense to the railroad; including
probably shipping them back and forth to equalize imbalances (and
maybe occasional losses if they were not removed from the trailer
when it was unloaded!). The loading tractors also had to have
specialized attachments to run on the cars. It is my understanding
that the design was used successfully in Europe.

Pieter

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@a...> wrote:

I think the design benefit of the Clejans was greatly reduced
loading and unloading time. Remember, they were introduced before
the now-familiar collapsible hitches. SP continued to buy Clejans
in the late 1950's even though modern hitches by then were in use.
Probably the reasoning was to make use of their existing investment
and not to have two types of equipment in the terminals... But they
were phased out rapidly after 1960 and as Tony said many were used
for autoracks, and some became VTTX (container) flats and ran into
the 1990's. I have a picture I took of one in Worcester MA about
10 years ago.


An additional problem with the Clejan cars was that all trailers
had to be
equipped with special dolly wheels under the rear axles. With
out these you
could not load the trailer on the car. This was a costly
modification to
the trailers. There was also the problem of these dolly wheels
coming off
during their highway trips and causing lawsuits.

Paul C. Koehler

-----Original Message-----
From: thompson@s... [mailto:thompson@s...]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 10:24 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] SP TOFCEE Flats


Were these the Clejan flats that had compatibility problems
after standards
had been agreed on by the roads?
Sure, though SP's company trailers were Clejan-equipped and
could be
handled on Clejans or conventional flats. The real problem was
that the
Clejans were too short.

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@c...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: SP TOFCEE Flats

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

I think the design benefit of the Clejans was greatly reduced
loading and unloading time. Remember, they were introduced before
the now-familiar collapsible hitches. SP continued to buy Clejans
in the late 1950's even though modern hitches by then were in use.
Probably the reasoning was to make use of their existing investment
and not to have two types of equipment in the terminals... But they
were phased out rapidly after 1960 and as Tony said many were used
for autoracks, and some became VTTX (container) flats and ran into
the 1990's. I have a picture I took of one in Worcester MA about
10 years ago.


An additional problem with the Clejan cars was that all trailers had to be
equipped with special dolly wheels under the rear axles. With out these you
could not load the trailer on the car. This was a costly modification to
the trailers. There was also the problem of these dolly wheels coming off
during their highway trips and causing lawsuits.

Paul C. Koehler

-----Original Message-----
From: thompson@... [mailto:thompson@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 10:24 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] SP TOFCEE Flats


Were these the Clejan flats that had compatibility problems after standards
had been agreed on by the roads?
Sure, though SP's company trailers were Clejan-equipped and could be
handled on Clejans or conventional flats. The real problem was that the
Clejans were too short.

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Silver Streak reefer

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Tony Thompson wrote

I don't have one of the SS models to compare, so don't know if it
resembles any PFE classes. But PFE and FGE were cooperating closely on
technical and design matters circa 1953, so it's possible it is close to
the early PFE mechanical cars too.
Tony,

Not really -- there are obvious differences. Athearn makes two very
nice early PFE mechanical reefers, if you ignore the ends and roofs!
Like the Pacific HO/Silver Streak cars, they are on my list of "to do"
kit bashes now that Branchline has made good roofs and ends available.

NP had some mechanical reefers that strongly resembled the FGE cars,
but they had a different number of side panels.

Sigh... pre-1950 modelers have it easy. There was a flood of freight
car design innovations from the mid-1950's to late-1960's and very
little of it can be easily modeled from available kits.

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: SP TOFCEE Flats

BuyGone Treasures <buygone@...>
 

Tony and all;

An additional problem with the Clejan cars was that all trailers had to be
equipped with special dolly wheels under the rear axles. With out these you
could not load the trailer on the car. This was a costly modification to
the trailers. There was also the problem of these dolly wheels coming off
during their highway trips and causing lawsuits.

Paul C. Koehler

-----Original Message-----
From: thompson@... [mailto:thompson@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 10:24 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] SP TOFCEE Flats


Were these the Clejan flats that had compatibility problems after standards
had been agreed on by the roads?
Sure, though SP's company trailers were Clejan-equipped and could be
handled on Clejans or conventional flats. The real problem was that the
Clejans were too short.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Re: "Steam Era" Piggyback Flatcars

Don Valentine
 

Quoting benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>:

Don Valentine asked:
Where might one find this article?

"1950s Piggyback Trailers in HO Scale," Jeff Wilson, Model
Railroader, August 2001 page 60.

Courtesy http://index.mrmag.com .

Thanks very much, Ben, for both the location and a good way to find such things.

Take care, Don Valentine


Re: Early piggyback cars

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

"The C&NW established piggyback service between "...more than 800
eastern cities and points on the C&NW..." in October 1955.
Ten "eastern" roads participated: PRR, DL&W, LV, NKP, RDG, Wabash,
Western Maryland, P&WV and Monon. (ref: North Western Newsliner, Oct
1955, employee mag)"

I think the C&NW, like the PRR, aggressively marketed TOFC service
and was an early leader in interline services. There is that famous
shot (from the Elwood site) of a beautiful Cotton Belt trailer on
a C&NW flat, circa mid 1950's... But I'm modeling the SP and while
I have evidence for interchange with the NP (at Portland) I don't see
any other railroad trailers or flats on the SP prior to 1959. I have
not seen any photos of T&NO piggyback ops so I don't know if things
were different in Texas and Louisiana.

By the way, don't forget that the F85B began production in 1959. (This
is the Athearn "piggyback flat", not the "all purpose" flat.)

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts

171781 - 171800 of 193520