Date   

Re: 53'6" GSC as PRR F41

Garrett W. Rea <Garrett.Rea@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@a...> wrote:

Garrett, at least some of the F41's decks look somewhat different as
far as the steel parts that are not covered by wood decking. I have
a
shot of one car that clearly shows this -- but on the other hand,
PRR
converted some F41's into bulkhead flats and this photo I have may
be
one of those with the bulkheads removed. There are lots of holes in
the steel for attachments!
I found a late shot of one on the PRR freightcar page:

http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?
photo=PRR_F41deck.gif&fr=

(To head off complaints, you will have to cut and paste due to the ?
in the address)

Can anyone confirm this as an "as built" arrangement for the entire
F41 or part of the F41 class?

The options are do this with styrene or take the lazy way out and
build a load that covers the bulk of the car <grin>.

Thanks-

Garrett Rea
Nashville, TN


Re: ADMIN: Wheels have rolled far enough

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

Max, you missed the point. Reducing the TE necessary to haul the hoppers by
reducing both the starting force required, and the rolling friction once
moving, can have a significant effect on how many hoppers you can pull.
PART of the problem was the hopper TRUCKS. With replacement wheels
properly<< fitted to the truck frames (that is, with the appropriate
length of axle), the rolling resistance is dramatically reduced.

SGL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathe Robin" <kathe@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] ADMIN: Wheels have rolled far enough


The problem was not the hoppers. It was the hard chrome plating on the
driver's tires! After that was machined off, with no other changes to
the loco, the results were as mentioned with the same cars and wheels.
At that point in time, the only semi-scale wheels available were some
NWSL Code 72 and CV "Fine Scale" if you had a hoard put away.

Max


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Re: ADMIN: Wheels have rolled far enough

Kathe Robin <kathe@...>
 

The problem was not the hoppers. It was the hard chrome plating on the
driver's tires! After that was machined off, with no other changes to
the loco, the results were as mentioned with the same cars and wheels.
At that point in time, the only semi-scale wheels available were some
NWSL Code 72 and CV "Fine Scale" if you had a hoard put away.

Max


Re: 53'6" GSC as PRR F41

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Lots of roads owned this car.....but the PRR 's car was different
from the Walthers and Tichy car but works as a stand in

Greg Martin
OK, I will bite, what modifications are needed or errors are present
in using the Walthers or Tichy car as a F41?

Garrett, at least some of the F41's decks look somewhat different as
far as the steel parts that are not covered by wood decking. I have a
shot of one car that clearly shows this -- but on the other hand, PRR
converted some F41's into bulkhead flats and this photo I have may be
one of those with the bulkheads removed. There are lots of holes in
the steel for attachments!

From the side and end, they look pretty much like standard GSC flats,
with 16 stake pockets and the double-taper fishbelly. A builder photo
of a bulkhead car shows tie-down staples all along the length of the
car.

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Code 88 Wheels & Track

Kathe Robin <kathe@...>
 

Tony:

After all these years, I still TYPE nickel with wrong spelling. Sorry!

You are right of course about my slightly confused message
re:determining material to be stainless. Been a bunch of years
(actually a decade or two) since I was doing that type of stuff with any
regularity.

Max
-----------------------------------------------------
email: m_robin@...

smail: Max S. Robin, P.E.
Cheat River Engineering Inc.
23 Richwood Place / P. O. Box 289
Denville, NJ 07834 - 0289

voice: 973-627-5895 / 973-627-5460
cell.: 973-945-5007
-----------------------------------------------------


53' 6" GSC as PRR F41

Garrett W. Rea <Garrett.Rea@...>
 

Re: 53' 6" GSC Commonwealth Flat Car

Lots of roads owned this car.....but the PRR 's car was different
from the Walthers and
Tichy car but works as a stand in, in a pinch.

Greg Martin
OK, I will bite, what modifications are needed or errors are present
in using the Walthers or Tichy car as a F41?

Thanks-

Garrett Rea
Nashville, TN


Re: ADMIN: Wheels have rolled far enough

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor asks:

Who makes a true "Code 88" wheel, Mike?
I think the NWSL fine scale wheel may be. I have one somewhere.

Mike Brock


Re: ADMIN: Wheels have rolled far enough

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

At some point, Denny or I or someone with mainline sized turnouts need to test a fine scale wheel...true code 88 I believe. I have a set here and I'll try to test it. For whatever that's worth.
Who makes a true "Code 88" wheel, Mike?


Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: ADMIN: Wheels have rolled far enough

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Not wanting to let a misunderstanding to remain misunderstood and, gulp!, I guess I will have the last word on this topic, let me quickly respond to Schuyler and Denny:

Schuyler says:

"As I said, Mike, Tim and I have operated trains with 088 wheels all around
the North Shore Club layout, Tim more than me, and Tim with more 088
equipped cars than I have (or than I own yet) where we have many switches >
No 8, and we have no problems."

With small numbered frogs like number 8's <g>, I don't expect any problems. I would note, however...again...if those wheels are Intermountain or Reboxx, they are probably not code 88 but are more likely "semi scale" with code 88 tire width and code 110 flanges. I don't know why this seems so difficult to understand.

Denny says:

"On the common "test" route on my layout, my test train with a
majority of cars (about 30 of mixed parentage) with .088" wheels, the
train will traverse two curved 83 #12's and four 83 #10s."

Now this is a much better test. Again, given that Denny says Reboxx, I believe these are probably Semi Scale wheels and not code 88...meaning that while the tire width is .088", the flange is code 110 0.030".

To be sure, I have not run extensive tests and let be very clear...I thought I had...that I do not claim that derailments will occur. I only have said that the wheels will drop into the gap on mainline sized frogs of number 10 or greater. Those that use industrial sidings will be safe <g> from this anomaly. Time will tell. IOW, when I have a piece of trackage out of guage or with some other problem, this does not guarantee a derailment. As a wheel clunks through some irregular joint or some such problem, it only warns of a possible problem which will then rise to the surface, say, during an op session or Prototype Rails. It is best to avoid these issues. As to whether or not the wheel dropping is such a warning, I don't know yet. Denny seems to have more data than anyone else and he seems satisfied. I would only say that, while thinner wheel treads do look much better, wheels dropping into gaps on turnouts don't. This dropping might have one advantageous side effect, however. If you've spent much time near real RRs...as I have...you'll note the clanging when a wheel strikes the frog. Maybe the dropping wheel clink can replicate that. I'll admit to actually filing down a wheel...making it a "flat" wheel to get the bang, bang sound as it moves along the track. This works well when the car is by itself, but the sound of a full train seems to drown it out.

At some point, Denny or I or someone with mainline sized turnouts need to test a fine scale wheel...true code 88 I believe. I have a set here and I'll try to test it. For whatever that's worth.

If I've said anything that Schuyler or Denny disagrees with, contact me off group and I'll set it straight. I don't think we should continue boring folks and wearing out their delete keys on this subject.

Mike Brock


Re: Quad Hoppers

Rich Yoder
 

Rich Yoder Models is importing a very nice Brass "O" scale H21a. Offered with power brake or vertical brake staff.
Yes this is a plug for my car project. It is being produced with Crown trucks a first for "O" scale.

Visit my web site for more details.

www.richyodermodels.com

Sincerely, Rich Yoder

----- Original Message -----
From: James D Thompson
To: stmfc@...
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 12:23 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Quad Hoppers


>Bethlehem Car Works sells ends to convert the Bowser H21A, but the H21A
>rib profile differs from that of the H25.

Interesting thing about the H25 (and its H24 semi-prototype) is that the
rib profile was borrowed from the rarer-than-rare Gv. I wonder who in the
Pennsy design office decided to pull *that* drawing from its repose in
1916?

David Thompson



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3-truck boxcar

Bert Decker
 

Mornin' all,

They might pre-date this list but I'm trying to find plans for a
three-truck overly-long boxcar that I once saw - maybe 60'. I thought
the plans were in MR back in the mid 50's but I haven't been able to
locate them. Does anybody know where they are?

TIA

Bert D.


Re: The F&SM Strikes Again

Tom L <tom7502@...>
 

The number I had heard a few years back was about 1
out of every 100 are prototype modelers. Numbers were
based on a manufacturers survey that I can't remember
was done by. Having been in the model railraod
business for fifteen years I tend to agree with those
numbers. Tom
--- Gene Green <willibecher@...> wrote:
--- In STMFC@..., "Paul La Ciura"
<paul@j...> wrote:
That brings up a question, I wonder if anyone
knows what percentage
of
"model railroaders" are prototype modelers?

Paul
San Jose
Has "prototype modeler" been defined somewhere?

Gene Green


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Re: The F&SM Strikes Again

asychis@...
 

In a message dated 08/16/03 6:33:50 AM Central Standard Time,
cepropst@... writes:

I wonder if anyone knows what percentage
of
"model railroaders" are prototype modelers?
Acording to the editorial in the latest MR, 10% of layouts are strictly
prototype, 40 % are freelance and 50% are protoype-based with "flexibility."

As to the comments on F&SM and Malcom Furlough. Who cares? I thought that
model railroading was a big tent and if you didn't like some aspect of it, you
could just ignore it. We talk about freight cars to the nth degree, aren't
others allowed to pursue their interests, whether we like them or not, to the
same extent? We "prototype" modelers have been called snobs before. The sorts
of messages being posted here do nothing to alleviate that appellation. Let's
get back to rivets!

Jerry Michels


Re: The F&SM Strikes Again

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

Gene,
Look under disciplined!
Clark

Gene Green wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "Paul La Ciura" <paul@j...> wrote:
That brings up a question, I wonder if anyone knows what percentage
of
"model railroaders" are prototype modelers?

Paul
San Jose
Has "prototype modeler" been defined somewhere?

Gene Green


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Rutland Rail Size

CBarkan@...
 

Lewis does not cite a source but my guess would be railroads' annual reports
to the ICC where a great deal of detail on assets was, and still is, reported.
The reports would not contain the exact amout of each rail size, but simply
place it in various size categories. A five-mile error doesn't particularly
surprise me.

Chris

In a message dated 8/15/03 9:54:57 AM, newrail@... writes:

<< But I wonder if Lewis cites a source for his information.

I wonder because while B&M and NH figures look about right it occurs to me

that the Rutland actually had more than 5 miles of 105 lb. Dudley rail in

place over Mt. Holly summit (on the Bellows Falls Sub.) and Churubusco (on

the O&LC) by 1951. >>


Re: Quad Hoppers

James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

Bethlehem Car Works sells ends to convert the Bowser H21A, but the H21A
rib profile differs from that of the H25.
Interesting thing about the H25 (and its H24 semi-prototype) is that the
rib profile was borrowed from the rarer-than-rare Gv. I wonder who in the
Pennsy design office decided to pull *that* drawing from its repose in
1916?

David Thompson


Re: ADMIN: Wheels have rolled far enough (8:40PM PDT)

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Mike, it is still 8:40 PM PDT!

I really have to take polite exception to your summary statement #2 about .088" wheels derailing on frogs above #8.

I will not be so foolish as to say "never", but I can say with the confidence of good repeatable observation in real experience in real time with multiple tests, that at least with one manufacturer's wheels (Reboxx, the ones that I happen to have), this simply has not proved out to be true in any sense.

On the common "test" route on my layout, my test train with a majority of cars (about 30 of mixed parentage) with .088" wheels, the train will traverse two curved 83 #12's and four 83 #10s. It will also traverse one 83#8 double slip, one 70 #6 double slip, several 70 and 83 #8s, and one 70 #6. Not once (that is, not once) has any of these cars with narrow wheels yet derailed at any of these frogs. Do they drop into the frogs? They may well, but if so it has not been brought to my attention, even when I purposely observe (as I just did several minutes ago).

Have I had derailments, yes, but never yet at a frog with any truck or car with .088" wheels, and the derailments have so far all been related to other track and other wheel issues (the reason why I run this test train).

Can I back this 40 car train through these broad turnouts? Yes, I have done that successfully several times (for other reasons).

I have a ten car push/pull passenger train that has all .088" wheels, and I have operated it in push mode for hours on end (hypnosis!) through this same smorgasbord of turnouts at high speeds, also without a single problem at any frog at any time.

I truly believe that the theoretical problem of .088" wheels derailing at the frogs of larger number turnouts should remain just that, one that at least in my hands cannot be currently validated.

Denny




--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento, CA


Re: [steamloco] Quad Hoppers

Benjamin Frank Hom <b.hom@...>
 

David Thompson wrote:
The list pretty much begins and ends with the H21a (Bowser), the H25, and
the
ARA offset-side quad (Athearn).

I'd certainly welcome a modern resin Class H25 kit. Bethlehem Car Works
sells ends to convert the Bowser H21A, but the H21A rib profile differs from
that of the H25. I've got several more of the Roller Bearing Model kits,
but after finishing one of them, I'm not in a hurry to start the next one.
(As a joke, I gave Ray Hessinger one of them for his birthday. Good thing I
kept a couple of P2K freight car kits for the real present, because a beat
down was probably on the way.)


Ben Hom


HO Items for Sale

golden1014
 

Brothers,

I need to raise some money for track and benchwork, so
the following HO items are my initial offering. As
I've said in the past, I'm not out to make a buck on
my friends so the first reasonable offer for each item
(items) will be accepted. A few of the new items have
hard prices so I can recoup my funds. Please contact
me off-list at Golden1014@.... Thanks!

1. P2K ACL E-7 Purple A&B, Sold as set, #529, slight
weathering with KD#5s installed. No original box. Test
run only. I am the original owner. First reasonable
offer will be accepted.

2. P2K ACL E-6 Purple A&B, Sold as set, #504, no
weathering, mint, no original box. Test run only. I am
the original owner. First reasonable offer will be
accepted.

3. Sunshine B&O Kit #58.1, B&O M-27 w/lap seam roof
and 1-1/2 door, new. $38.00 includes shipping. Will
trade for Sunshine Milw ribside 40' box car if you
have one!

4. P2K SAL E-7 A&B, Orange Blossom scheme, Sold as
set, #3027A and #3107B. B unit has powered underframe
from P2K E-8. Slight weathering, mint, no original
box. Test run only. I am the orginal owner. First
reasonable offer will be accepted.

5. Stewart Central of Georgia F-3A shells (two
available) blue/gray/orange custom painted by master
painter Bob Harpe. Wire grabs, lift rings, MU hoses,
other details with Kadee #58 couplers. Shell only.
These are beautifully finished--I can send a photo if
you're interested. I paid $135.00 for each shell and
will sell one for $135.00 or both for $250.00. I pay
shipping. No original box.

6. This one's gonna hurt, but I could use the cash.
Overland M&St.L bay window caboose, OMI #3891, 1994
run. Unpainted, mint in original box. A rare but
beautiful model. $175.00 firm, I pay shipping.

That's it. More to follow in a few months.
John Golden
O'Fallon, IL

=====


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Re: ADMIN: Wheels have rolled far enough

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

Blithely ignoring Mike's

So...let's terminate the wheel discussions by 11PM EDT tonight.
I wanna pick a bone about his summary statement (in both senses of the word
"summary")

2. These wheels will operate very well on HO scale track and frogs built
to
NMRA standard S-3 as long as the frog numbers are less than 10. Turnouts
with frog numbers above 8 will allow the wheel to drop into the gap
between
the frog point and wing rail. This will not, necessarily, cause a
derailment
but as the frog number increases past #10, the dangers of derailment will
increase. Emperical data will tell the story on derailments on number 10
frogs.
As I said, Mike, Tim and I have operated trains with 088 wheels all around
the North Shore Club layout, Tim more than me, and Tim with more 088
equipped cars than I have (or than I own yet) where we have many switches >
No 8, and we have no problems.

5. Any wheel size will operate best on track frogs built to match the
wheel
size...whatever it is. Thus, using wheels of more than one code...say,
true
88 and 110, on the same track invites problems.
This happens all the time in our case, again, no problems.

Anyone with additional comments on this summary are certainly welcome to
add
them...until 11 PM.
Hey, cut me some slack, I didn't even get on line until about 10:30!

SGL

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