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Re: rivet heresy/what's old is new

pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

Manfred Lorenz wrote:
There was a decal manufacturer who made rivets, weld seams, hex
screws, latches etc. on dry transfer decals. These were mainly
intended for the military modeler but also for railroad models. He
has stopped making them due to the trouble they gave him in
production.

It appeared to me that this was/is a very clever method...
Wayne Long posted an excellent analysis of the Archer dry transfer
rivets to the Passenger Car list in December 1999, and I posted it to
this list in March 2001. Basically, he found them much too thin for
his purposes. But memories are short, so here's a repost of Wayne's
analysis:

BEGIN QUOTED MESSAGE
I measured the thickness of the items in the sample sheet I purchased
from ARCHER. They are 0.02 mm thick. I think that that is something
like 0.00075", which would be only 0.065" in HO.

The following is what I sent to ARCHER after I examined the samples:

I can't use your rivet detail because they, simply, are to thin. A
real rivet does not have a flat head. Instead, the head is rounded.
Let me share the formulas relating to size in most railroad rivets.

The "size" of the rivet (in inches) is the outside diameter of the
shaft which goes into the two or more holes in the metal pieces
being riveted together. The diameter of the rivet head, where it
bears on a metal surface is size x 1.5 + 1/8". The head at its
highest point off the same metal surface is:
size x 1.5 + 1/8" x 0.425.

Apply this information to a standard 1" rivet and you get:

Shaft = 1" O.D.

head = 1 5/8"

head thickness = 11/16" + which is 0.22 mm in HO scale

Your rivet would have to be at least 0.22 mm thick and dome shaped
to simulate the prototype.

Hope this helps. Of course, rivets are of various sizes. Most
often, the ones cast into plastic HO cars/tenders are oversize. If
they were of "correct" size, we would not be as aware of them as we
are.

Wayne R. Long
------
END QUOTED MESSAGE

Andy "Earnest Modeler" Carlson mentioned the rivets on the
forthcoming (finally!) Branchline passenger cars. When I submitted
the design drawings for those cars to Branchline I had assumed the
rivet head diameter was 2X the shaft diameter. According to Wayne's
formula my 3/8" and 1/2" shaft diameter rivets should have 11/16" and
7/8" head diameters respectively, instead of the 3/4" and 1" heads I
gave them. My bad!

As penance I will burn some incense and place a pair of calipers and
a jewelers loupe at my Byron Rose grotto.

Yes friends, Byron will be incensed.

Tom Madden


Re: Loaded and empty hoppers

The Gounleys <gounleys@...>
 

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 at 15:18:50 -0500 Allen Rueter wrote:

This just shows you how cost effective a back haul is, the train Tim
is talking about went from MN/WI -> StLouis -> CO over Tennessee pass ->
UT with ore, then back to CO for a load of coal to any where from
Southern IL to WI.
and On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 10:41:30AM -0400, Tim O'Connor wrote:

In more recent memory, the SP ran unit coal trains from Utah to Wisconsin
and the empty trains were then sent to the Missabe Range, where they were
loaded with taconite for the return trip to Geneva Steel in Provo Utah.
The trains were incredibly efficient racking up better than 80% loaded
miles. Most railfans don't realize that empty coal trains use almost as
much fuel as loaded coal trains on the flatlands! The incremental cost
of sending the trains back loaded was so small that they economically
transported iron ore almost 2,000 miles!
The economics of the car cycle in question were not so good as it might appear. An empty train of hoppers at speed consumes a lot of fuel because of wind resistance from the empty cargo areas. Having seen how little of the cargo area the Reading used when hauling ore from Port Richmond to Bethlehem in hoppers, the return trip of ore would have required quite a lot more power to handle an ore load as heavy or heavier than the outbound coal (depending on how well the cars were sized to the coal's mass), plus wind resistance at a given speed probably nearly as great as an empty train. Still, it was a superb piece of marketing.


Re: AAR hopper cars (was Sunshine hopper minikit)

Tim O'Connor
 

Ed,

All wonderful, ambitious ideas... but has he brought out anything yet?


Wrong scale for most of you, but Cryer Gray Foundry is working on importing brass AAR Standard and Alternate Standard hopper cars in S scale with the detail mentioned. Owner John Botten is working hard to make these cars as accurate as possible. Previously, I think it was Rich Yoder who had some made in O scale as well.

Here is his older ad that showed only the Alt Std cars:

http://www.cryergrayfoundry.com/main/hopper_ad.html

His new ad now shows both.

Earl Tuson

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: rivet heresy/what's old is new

Eric <newyorkcentralfan@...>
 

I read about using a sharpened mechanical pencil to punch out rivets
from aluminium duct tape.

http://omicron.felk.cvut.cz/FAQ/articles/a2542.html

Eric


Re: rivet heresy/what's old is new

Manfred Lorenz
 

--- In STMFC@..., Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@s...> wrote:
Another thought - could one get drawings made into dry transfers -
just the
rivet portions, that is - and apply them to styrene sheet to make a
master
for a resin model? I'm thinking about all the various car sides
with
different patters that exist.
That is an idea a manufacturer should make comments about.

One idea, perhaps patent applicable, would be to laser print on the
real cars. I dunno how this is done on the P2k and other models but
if the laser loads the plastic electrically a tiny amount of color
could attracted in the desired places and baked on or stuck on.

I could imagine to give the car a clear finish, matte or gloss and
load it with the laser printer cannon. Then let it hover over the
color powder to attract the color/ink particles and let dry.

Manfred


AAR hopper cars (was Sunshine hopper minikit)

Earl Tuson
 

Ed Hawkins said:

Maybe someday good models of 50-ton offset-side AAR Standard and Alternate
Standard hopper cars will be available, including having accurate interior
detail with the offset showing from the inside. Well, I can always hope.
Wrong scale for most of you, but Cryer Gray Foundry is working on importing brass AAR Standard and Alternate Standard hopper cars in S scale with the detail mentioned. Owner John Botten is working hard to make these cars as accurate as possible. Previously, I think it was Rich Yoder who had some made in O scale as well.

Here is his older ad that showed only the Alt Std cars:

http://www.cryergrayfoundry.com/main/hopper_ad.html

His new ad now shows both.

Earl Tuson


Re: rivet heresy/what's old is new

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Another thought - could one get drawings made into dry transfers - just the
rivet portions, that is - and apply them to styrene sheet to make a master
for a resin model? I'm thinking about all the various car sides with
different patters that exist.

Rob Kirkham


Re: rivet heresy/what's old is new

Manfred Lorenz
 

--- In STMFC@..., Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@s...> wrote:
I really do like this idea. Would it work as the basis for a
master to be
cast in resin?
I have no experience with casting. I guess a protective coat would be
beneficial before the silicone could attack or bond to the dry
transfers. They were said to be very flexible and durable compared to
decals, but with the molding material I dunno what would happen.

Anyway it needs a new manufacturer to take over production or find
some old stock in a shop. The discontinuance happened roughly a year
ago.

Manfred


Re: rivet heresy/what's old is new

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

I really do like this idea. Would it work as the basis for a master to be
cast in resin?

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Manfred Lorenz" <germanfred55@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 5:37 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: rivet heresy/what's old is new


--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@y...> wrote:
If rivets are so small (like the ones on the ribs of a typical NE
fishbelly hopper)why not leave them off completely or represent
them
by a spot?
...it strikes me that a printed side would be
pretty realistic.

With todays photocopiers maybe printed sides will have a rebirth.
There was a decal manufacturer who made rivets, weld seams, hex
screws, latches etc. on dry transfer decals. These were mainly
intended for the military modeler but also for railroad models. He
has stopped making them due to the trouble they gave him in
production.

It appeared to me that this was/is a very clever methode to arrive at
just the right size. When the decal is painted the edges get smoothed
so it resembles the round head of rivets.

Any decal manufacturer ready to take over?
The address is http://www.archertransfers.com
They were under surface details.

This would alleviate the permant problem of arriving at even and
consistent spacing.

Manfred




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Re: rivet decals

Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

At 12:37 AM 9/25/03 +0000, you wrote:
There was a decal manufacturer who made rivets, weld seams, hex
screws, latches etc. on dry transfer decals. [snip]

It appeared to me that this was/is a very clever methode to arrive at
just the right size. When the decal is painted the edges get smoothed
so it resembles the round head of rivets.
I have done exactly this for a steel water tank but the tank color was silver and the "black" rivets (scale size of course) and seams look very good. I am not sure that you could get the same results with a box car red freight car though.

Jack Burgess
www.YosemiteValleyRR.com


Re: AB brake details

Tim O'Connor
 

Dave,

Byron finished those X23 masters, so I guess he can't be too
bad off. :o)



Ahh, the temperate comments of the RPA... been too long. Anybody know
how the old buzzard is doin with his new eyes?

Dave Nelson

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts


Intermountain composite gon

Glenn Joppich <gjopp@...>
 

Hi Guys,

I was cleaning up in the shop and ran across an old kit I never finished. It is an Intermountain USRA composite drop bottom gondola, NYC 349691. I bought it because I liked the idea of the real wood sides and wanted to leave it as an open car. Unfortunately there is no weight block for it and it's light as a feather. I wasn't able to find any weights thin enough to work so it went on the back burner.

I went on Intermountain web site and saw that Reboxx makes weights for this car but now, with my new prototype blinders, I'm wondering how this car stacks up.

Thanks for the input

Glenn Joppich
Redford,MI


Re: rivet heresy/what's old is new

Manfred Lorenz
 

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@y...> wrote:
If rivets are so small (like the ones on the ribs of a typical NE
fishbelly hopper)why not leave them off completely or represent
them
by a spot?
...it strikes me that a printed side would be
pretty realistic.

With todays photocopiers maybe printed sides will have a rebirth.
There was a decal manufacturer who made rivets, weld seams, hex
screws, latches etc. on dry transfer decals. These were mainly
intended for the military modeler but also for railroad models. He
has stopped making them due to the trouble they gave him in
production.

It appeared to me that this was/is a very clever methode to arrive at
just the right size. When the decal is painted the edges get smoothed
so it resembles the round head of rivets.

Any decal manufacturer ready to take over?
The address is http://www.archertransfers.com
They were under surface details.

This would alleviate the permant problem of arriving at even and
consistent spacing.

Manfred


Re: CB&Q Info Needs

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Charlie,
is there anything in there for ballast hoppers? I'm looking for dimensional
info on the doors and interior bracing on such cars pre 1950.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie Vlk [mailto:cvlk@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 7:19 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: CB&Q Info Needs


If anyone on the list has need for CB&Q related material I have
almost 1000 railroad drawings on microfilm aperture cards.


Re: AB brake details

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Ahh, the temperate comments of the RPA... been too long. Anybody know how
the old buzzard is doin with his new eyes?

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
--- "Byron S. Rose" <byronsrose@...> wrote:
[snip]
Maybe some day I'll do an instruction sheet for my
brake set so people can
be properly intimidated by them.

BSR


Re: Mill Gondolas In Interchange

Ted Schnepf <railsunl@...>
 

Hi Shawn,

A back haul for gons in your area, could be treated utility poles and other lumber loads.

Ted

At 01:47 PM 9/19/2003 -0700, you wrote:
Richard,

"Geographical backwater" is probably a good discription of
Arkansas and Northeast Texas (unless you're from there) but
in terms of traffic the Cotton Belt was pretty important as
far as getting manufactured goods out of the East St. Louis
gateway and moving them out to the west coast.
Rails Unlimited
Ted Schnepf
126 Will Scarlet
Elgin, Ill 60120
847-697-5353 or 847-697-5366
railsunl@...
http://users.foxvalley.net/~railsunl/
Model railroad sales, DCC supplies, Books new and used
O scale urethane cars, Photos and darkroom services
Checks, cash or credit (secure server at web site-3% added)


Re: Hand brakes (was AB brake details)

Scott Pitzer
 

Sounds like a future Sunshine Monrovia meet needs to include a Brake Wheels Up Close And Personal Clinic!
(I only know him as the "Psst, Hey Buddy, you need these sprue nippers!" guy.)
Scott Pitzer



Dan Smith. Some of you listers
here may know him. He collects brake wheels. 1:1 scale brake
wheels.
[snip]

416 W. Jeffries #67
Monrovia, CA 91016-4961
(626) 444-0614


Re: Hand brakes (was AB brake details)

Richard Hendrickson
 

Shawn Beckert writes:

Well, I feel I'm about to "out" someone on the internet, but
here goes anyway: There's a feller living here in the Los
Angeles area by the name of Dan Smith. Some of you listers
here may know him. He collects brake wheels. 1:1 scale brake
wheels.
[snip]

I have no address or phone number for Dan, but possibly one
my fellow listers does. If I were serious about making brake
wheels as a scale part, I'd get hold of Dan and arrange to
take photos, get measurements, etc.
416 W. Jeffries #67
Monrovia, CA 91016-4961
(626) 444-0614

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Empty:Loaded Car-Miles for Hoppers

C J Wyatt
 

<<
That there were loaded hoppers proceeding in both directions on C&O's
New River Line does not imply necessarily that the empty car miles were
significantly less than loaded car miles. The hoppers had to be
positioned for loading which meant hauling them empty (unless the mine
needed stone). Thus, the New River Line also would have had empty
hoppers in both directions.

Tim Gilbert>>

Tim,

Sorry, you're wrong. Also look at my N&W example. Loads crossing is OK
because they are billed to different destinations. If empty open top hoppers
(non-unit train) are crossing paths, someone is screwing up.

Jack Wyatt


Re: Hand brakes (was AB brake details)

Shawn Beckert
 

Guys,

Well, I feel I'm about to "out" someone on the internet, but
here goes anyway: There's a feller living here in the Los
Angeles area by the name of Dan Smith. Some of you listers
here may know him. He collects brake wheels. 1:1 scale brake
wheels. I know this because every time he sees me at one of
the local swap meets he wants to drag me over to the trunk
of his car to show me the latest acquisition. As far as I
know he comes by the parts honestly by visiting every scrap
yard in California.

I have no address or phone number for Dan, but possibly one
my fellow listers does. If I were serious about making brake
wheels as a scale part, I'd get hold of Dan and arrange to
take photos, get measurements, etc. If I were serious....

Shawn Beckert

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