Re: Modeling freight car distribution.

Tim O'Connor

Oops. My calculation was wrong. If you have ONE box car on
your layout at a time, and .14% of the fleet is Monon, then
the expectation is 40% that at least ONE of those days during
the year, the car will be a Monon car.

But if you have 100 box cars on your layout, then the expectation
on any given day is 13%, while the probability that no Monon box car
will show up within a year is .00000000000000000000619%. In other
words, there's a snowball's chance in Hell that no Monon box car
will show up.

If you have a layout with 500 box cars, then the daily chance of
at least one Monon box car showing up increases to 50%. And the
chance that at least one will show up within a week's time is
more than 99%.

Just because freight cars are proportionally few, doesn't mean
they are necessarily unusual visitors. I think that one should
do this simple calculation based on the number of cars of that
cars from "eastern" railroads. Then you may find you really have
90 or 100 models that have a high likelihood of showing up every
5 or 10 operating sessions. You can calculate probabilities for
each and then proportion the number of slots (e.g. 25 x 10 days)
to get a nice, variable but realistic mix of freight cars. Or
you could just program the probabilities into your computerized
switchlist program, and have it produce a theoretically realistic
mix every day...

And therefore, the probability that NONE of the Monon box cars
showed up in a year's time in any particular location is less
than 6%... Or put another way, there's a 94% probability that at
least one of the Monon box cars would show up within a year, assuming
that all box cars are equally probable. (Given your theory of random
box car assignments.)

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Modeling freight car distribution.

baltimoreterminal <ktravers@...>

Ted,
Thanks. Yes, the cars are not directly usable from PRR X29's. but
the general appearance is similar. As you point out, there are
on the ARA design, which of course, the PRR wouldn't accept. From my
post you can see the differnce in ends and interior height
mentioned.

I'm working off a photo database I've created, and hopefully,
replying to the question of representative, or signature, cars to
fill out the 100 car roster. Details will need to be filled in by
others, such as you and the other members of the list will do. My
suggestions are prompts for those more knowledgeable than I for the

Regards, Travers, BaltimoreTerminal, 9-30-03

--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:
On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 09:41 PM, baltimoreterminal wrote:

For the RDG, try 101000-102999, class XMu, blt 1930, IH 9-3, like
PRR X29, or 100000-100499, class XMt, blt 1925, IH: 8-8, like PRR X29,
except Murphy 7/8 ends.
Hello:

These are the same cars I recommended. However, they are not like
the ARA/X29 design. They are variations on the USRA steel design so
widely used on the NYC.

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/rdg102751main.html

I will try to dig up my drawings of these and scan them.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Re: Modeling freight car distribution.

Tim O'Connor

Monon's 1,065 boxcars was 0.14% of the National Class I RR Boxcar Fleet
or about one in every 700 boxcars.

Tim Gilbert

And therefore, the probability that NONE of the Monon box cars
showed up in a year's time in any particular location is less
than 6%... Or put another way, there's a 94% probability that at
least one of the Monon box cars would show up within a year, assuming
that all box cars are equally probable. (Given your theory of random
box car assignments.)

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: BAR Reefers

Don Valentine

Quoting tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>:

The BAR had a very short-lived blue & white scheme with a large brown
potato. It was an experiment. If any #6000 series reefer had that
scheme, it was repainted shortly thereafter.

What makes you think it was experimental, Tim? It occurrs to me that it
was around too long for that.

Take care, Don Valentine

Re: NYS&W 501-524 40ft steel boxcars

Tim O'Connor

Mont, the car in the circa 1980 photo matches those features, but
we're talking about 30 years later! By 1959 the NYSW only showed
two cars remaining of those 35 PS-1's they bought in 1952. What
happened to the other 8 is a mystery... the #526 could be either
the #401 or #402, which were still on the roster in 1972!

Tim:

Are these 40 ft. PS-1's with 6 ft. five panel Superior doors? If so they
may have become Monon 541 - 565. An equipment diagram note reads as
follows:

"NOTE:- THESE CARS WERE PURCHASED 2ND HAND FROM N.Y.S.& W. RR. 9-21-56."

The diagram indicates the cars were built in 11-52, lot no. 8080.

Mont Switzer

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts

Photos, ATSF Fe-K

Steve Sandifer <jssand@...>

I still have no ID on the box car in Moline, KS, but here is one I can definitely identify. It is Fe-K, autobox #8868.

http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Howard/Howard/Bx/Box.htm

--------------------
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Dr., Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417
Personal: http://users2.ev1.net/~jssand/index.htm
Church: http://www.swcentral.org
Railway: http://www.trainweb.org/jssand
Webmaster: http://www.ATSFRR.net

Re: BAR Reefers

Don Valentine

Quoting George Hollwedel <georgeloop@...>:

Micro-Trains has released a blue and white, ex MDT, wood reefer this
month
and I'm trying to see how accurate and feasible it is. It is not a red
white and blue boxcar. Micro-Trains is claiming they were painted
yellow
"later". They have put #6006 on the car and it can be seen here:

http://www.micro-trains.com/nr_49550.htm

Any help is appreciated, wish I was in Sacramento!

George Hollwedel
Prototype N Scale Models
georgeloop@...

This is the car I just described in my previous post, George, and it is
accurate until the 1950's.

Take care, Don Valentine

Re: BAR Reefers

Don Valentine

Quoting tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>:

George Hollwedel wrote:

Solves 1/2 the equation,
now when did the color change from blue and white to yellow/orange?
Would a blue and white one have lasted until 1953?
The Red, White and Blue STATE OF MAINE cars were not reefers, but were
boxcars - some of them insulated. The scheme started to be applied in
the early 1950's.

The BAR did not buy their first reefer until 1951. The first series 338
strong in 1/1953, #6000-6999, were ex-MDT reefers and were painted
yellow with black ends. The second series were the #7000-7856 which
were
built by Pacific Car & Foundry - 500 in 1951-52 and another 357 in
1953.
These had yellow sides and ends. The #7000's were the ones rented to
PFE during the summer - the off-season for Aroostook County spuds.

Thanks for bringing me up short here, Tim. It has been a long day but we
are talking reefers, not insulated boxcars. I don't recall any of the reefers
being painted red, white and blue but I do recall some of the earlier wood
sheathed reefers, at least I'm almost certain they were reefers, being painted
white and blue. The upper part of the side was white while the lower part was
blue. Again IIRC the blue band was not quite as wide as the white.

Take care, Don Valentine

Re: BAR Reefer

Don Valentine

Quoting George Hollwedel <georgeloop@...>:

I have a two part BAR reefer question.
When did they start painting them yellow or orange?
Would a load of Maine potatoes ever have made it's way to California?

I'm not dead certain on the shift to orange paint for BAR reefers, George,
but believe it was in the 1960's. Maine potatoes making it to California is
a bit of a stretch unless processed by McCain's into, what's the proper term
since we can't call the "French" fries anymore? In other words, as frozen
food, possibly, as bagged potatoes for sale it's not very likely. Too many
Idaho's and others around I suspect.

Take care, Don Valentine

Re: NYS&W 501-524 40ft steel boxcars

Tim O'Connor

That's weird, I have scans of NYSW 501 and 510 and they are 40 foot cars.
Sorry, my typo. The IL is 40 ft 6in, not 50 ft 6 in. Do the scans you have
match my description and/or the photo in Classic Freight Cars Vol 7?

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA

Yes Larry, they are clearly rebuilds of something. Also, as I was digging
around looking for the BAR reefer photo, I found another NYSW photo - #504
in fairly new paint and it also has the 6/5/5 ends etc. So evidently based
on your photos and mine, all of the cars were rebuilds. But of what?

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: NYS&W 501-524 40ft steel boxcars

Mont Switzer <ZOE@...>

Tim:

Are these 40 ft. PS-1's with 6 ft. five panel Superior doors? If so they
may have become Monon 541 - 565. An equipment diagram note reads as
follows:

"NOTE:- THESE CARS WERE PURCHASED 2ND HAND FROM N.Y.S.& W. RR. 9-21-56."

The diagram indicates the cars were built in 11-52, lot no. 8080.

Mont Switzer

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] NYS&W 501-524 40ft steel boxcars

Larry,

That's weird, I have scans of NYSW 501 and 510 and they are
40 foot cars. Also the 1965 ORER lists 501 to 524 as 40 foot
cars. The 3645 cubic feet is consistent with a 40 foot car,
not a 50 footer.

I have a 1980's scan of NYSW 526, a 40 foot PS1 painted in
a scheme just like the Rutland cars. One thing about the NYSW,

There is a photo of NYS&W 508 on p45 of Classic Freight Cars, Vol 7.

Atlas O applied this paint scheme to their steel rebuilt boxcar.

Does anyone know the origin of these cars?

All 24 cars in the 501-524 series is listed in the 4-66 ORER. This
series
is not listed in the 1-59 ORER. I don't have any ORERs in between these
dates.

The ORER dimensions are IL 50ft 6in, IW 9ft 0in, IH 10ft 0in, HtopRB 14ft
8in, and cuft 3645.

The 5 panel steel sides have a double row of rivets at each panel seam.
The panel widths near the door on the left hand side suggest that the car
originally was an auto boxcar. The ends are 6/5/5 (counting from the
top)
corrugated ends with inverted corrugations.

TIA for any help.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts

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Re: BAR Reefers

Tim O'Connor

Tim Gilbert wrote

The BAR had a very short-lived blue & white scheme with a large brown
potato. It was an experiment. If any #6000 series reefer had that
scheme, it was repainted shortly thereafter.
Tim, may I ask why you say that? I know SP freight cars that numbered
in the hundreds, and ran for years and years, and photos of them are
as rare as diamonds. Just because you haven't seen a photo....

I believe also that it was the #7000 series which were rented off-season
to PFE. As far as I know, the only scheme which a #7000 had in the
1950's was yellow with black lettering.
Yes, I believe the steel cars were delivered in yellow-orange. I have
seen a 1952 photo of BAR #7278 on the SP in that color scheme. These
cars were very similar to the SP R-40-26. Do you know who built them?

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Modeling freight car distribution.

tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>

Mont Switzer wrote:

Bruce: If you only need one Monon car it probably should be a 1937
AAR car,
450 of which arrived on the Monon in 1941 and 1942.
Per page 488 of the January 1943 ORER:

Desig IL IH Cu. Ft. Qty.
#2000-3600 XM 36' 6" 8' 2,482 615
#9000-9449 XM 40' 6" 10' 3,710 450
Total Boxcars 1,065

Monon's 1,065 boxcars was 0.14% of the National Class I RR Boxcar Fleet
or about one in every 700 boxcars.

Tim Gilbert

Re: NYS&W 501-524 40ft steel boxcars

Dana and Larry Kline <klinelarrydanajon@...>

Thanks to all for their replies.

Ed Mines wrote
I'm writing this at work so I can't check my photo collection. If this is a
40 ft. car with the old lady I think it's an ex LV former
double door box car.
The 1-59 ORER has a LV 5000-5698 series of steel box cars for which all of
the ORER dimensions match the ORER dimensions of the NYS&W 501-524 series in
the 4-66 ORER. There are 492 cars in the LV 5000-5698 series in the 1-59
ORER, only 32 in the 4-66 ORER. Are these the LV cars you had in mind?

Tim O'Connor wrote
That's weird, I have scans of NYSW 501 and 510 and they are 40 foot cars.
Sorry, my typo. The IL is 40 ft 6in, not 50 ft 6 in. Do the scans you have
match my description and/or the photo in Classic Freight Cars Vol 7?

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA

Re: BAR Reefers

tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>

George Hollwedel wrote:

Micro-Trains has released a blue and white, ex MDT, wood reefer this
month
and I'm trying to see how accurate and feasible it is. It is not a
red
white and blue boxcar. Micro-Trains is claiming they were painted
yellow
"later".
The BAR had a very short-lived blue & white scheme with a large brown
potato. It was an experiment. If any #6000 series reefer had that
scheme, it was repainted shortly thereafter.

I believe also that it was the #7000 series which were rented off-season
to PFE. As far as I know, the only scheme which a #7000 had in the
1950's was yellow with black lettering.

Tim Gilbert

Re: BAR Reefers

George Hollwedel <georgeloop@...>

Well, that means I can save my money!

George Hollwedel
Prototype N Scale Models
georgeloop@...

----- Original Message -----
From: "tim gilbert" <tgilbert@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: BAR Reefers

George Hollwedel wrote:

Micro-Trains has released a blue and white, ex MDT, wood reefer this
month
and I'm trying to see how accurate and feasible it is. It is not a
red
white and blue boxcar. Micro-Trains is claiming they were painted
yellow
"later".
The BAR had a very short-lived blue & white scheme with a large brown
potato. It was an experiment. If any #6000 series reefer had that
scheme, it was repainted shortly thereafter.

I believe also that it was the #7000 series which were rented off-season
to PFE. As far as I know, the only scheme which a #7000 had in the
1950's was yellow with black lettering.

Tim Gilbert

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Re: Modeling freight car distribution.

Mont Switzer <ZOE@...>

Bruce: If you only need one Monon car it probably should be a 1937 AAR car,
450 of which arrived on the Monon in 1941 and 1942. I did a piece on them
in MAINLINE MODELER a few years ago. There were two series of these cars
with minor lettering variations between them as well as two kinds of trucks.
Red Caboose makes the car.

The first steel hoppers, 200 of them, arrived on the property in 1940 but
probably stayed pretty close to home hauling southern Indiana coal to State
owned institutions and points throughout the Midwest. They were offset side
cars so Athearn or Atlas would be the starting point.

There were also 60 flat cars, 53ft.6in. long that arrived in 1941 and they
did get around. They were fifteen pocket cars close to the LifeLike models,
but the scheme offered by LifeLike was a late 1940's -early 1950's paint
scheme too new for your needs.

There were some composite cars still in interchange service during your
period, but suitable models are not available. Unfortunately Westerfield's
wood Monon boxcar was off the roster by 1939.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Smith <smithbf@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 5:08 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Modeling freight car distribution.

Howdy,

Continuing on my theme of trying to get the freight car balance correct
for my 1944 PRR layout, I've come up with the following. For boxcars
I use the regional percentages for 1943 and the percentages within each
region owned by the major railroads, provided by y'all (esp.Tim
Gilbert). I assigned Ted's list of signature cars, and began to
investigate which car classes are appropriate for each road. I will
need around 100 foreign box cars. The cars listed below with an
asterix are from Ted's list. The remainder are either cars I have
identified as being the major car, or that I have in my collection. In
some cases, such as the UP cars, I've given the fleet totals.

New England 2.5%
1 New Haven - 36' rebuilt (F&C)
1 B&M - ARA SS (F&C) *?
1 MEC

Great Lakes 18.1%
9 NYC (not PLE)
2 x USRA Steel *
50' single door (P2K)
2 Erie
1937 AAR, (Sun) *
50' single door (P2K)
2 Wabash
SS Autocar (Sunshine) *
1 GTW
1 NKP
1 DL&W - 1937 AAR (IMWX)*

Central East 18.1% (REMOVED PRR)
5 B&O
M53 Wagon top (West Shore) *
2 x M26 (X29 clone) *
1 RDG
1 CNJ
1 Monon
1 C&EI

Pocahontas 3.1%
3 C&O
USRA SS (Westerfield 3303)
1 N&W

Southern 14.6%
4 Southern
1937 AAR (RC) *
DS Autocar (Sunshine) *
36' truss rod (Westerfield) *
3Illinois Central
2 L&N
2 ACL
2 SAL
B-3/4/5 ARA SS (F&C?)*
AF-1 Round roof (Sunshine)

Northwest 16.6%
4 Milwaukee
1-2 SS boxcar (Sunshine) *
Rib side (Sunshine) *
3 GN
DS boxcar (Sunshine) *
3 CN&W
SS "short" (Sunshine) *
3 NP
DS boxcar (Sunshine) *
1Soo

Central West 19.3%
5 AT&SF
BX-11,12,13 SS (Westerfield) *
4 SP
Cotton Belt DS (Sunshine) *
B-50-13/14 (Sunshine) *
B-50-15/16 (Sunshine) *
4 UP
B-50-17 (Sunshine) (2282)
B-50-19/21/23 (RC?) (3065)
B-50-24/27 (Trix) (3357)
B-50-32/33 (Sunshine) (2749)
B-50-34/35 (PS-0, NEB&W) (50)
3 CB&Q
2 Rock Island

Southwest 7.6%
3 Mo Pac
Howe truss SS (Sunshine) *
2 SL&SF
SS boxcar (Sunshine) *
1 TN&O

You will note that there are some "holes" left...the cars above do not
add to 100. This gives me the flexibility to add in some unusual or
"rare" cars, at the right mix. Some others from Ted's list are:
CP minibox (F&C) *
LV "wrong way" (Sunshine/F&C) *

In addition, I have yet to identify many of the "signature cars" that
were not on Ted's list. Anyone with suggestions for the roads listed
in this table, please feel free to make them!! I am looking for the
dominant boxcar class for those roads (and hopefully, an HO scale
model!)

Happy Rails
Bruce

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Re: What do you use to simulate log loads?

Jack Burgess <jack@...>

Unlike the others, I don't like natural twigs to simulate logs....I can always tell that they are twigs and one of my standards is to make ensure that modeling source material is generally unrecognizable. For example, having someone say, "I see that you are using sagebrush for tree armatures" would mean a failure on my part.

A company named McCloud produced some beautiful trees from an expanding foam years ago....their painting directions were right on the money and I was able to find enough of these logs at out-of-the-way hobby shops to fill my needs. Lacking those, my next choice (since they are easy) would be to use Kadee plastic logs and paint them according to the McCloud directions. My final option would be to make logs using the techniques outlined by Jack Work in Model Railroader many years ago, carving masters from plaster.

Jack Burgess
www.YosemiteValleyRR.com

Re: BAR Reefers

Tim O'Connor

George, the paint scheme and information on the MT site is correct,
but the model appears to have an incorrect roof and underframe for
the BAR cars.

Also, the white painted panel on the left side appears to be about
2x too large compared to the photo that I have.

Micro-Trains has released a blue and white, ex MDT, wood reefer this month
and I'm trying to see how accurate and feasible it is. It is not a red
white and blue boxcar. Micro-Trains is claiming they were painted yellow
"later". They have put #6006 on the car and it can be seen here:

http://www.micro-trains.com/nr_49550.htm

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: BAR Reefers

Tim O'Connor

Tim, I have a very nice 1950's photo of BAR #6722, a wood reefer
in blue (lower half) and white (upper half) with a big red potato
logo. There is a second car painted the same way in the photo,
perhaps #6039. Champ Decals made a set for this paint scheme --
HR-43.

If anyone can recommend how to model this car, I'd love to hear it!
Could I use the Sunshine MDT kit 20.4? (Is that the prototype?)

now when did the color change from blue and white to yellow/orange?
Would a blue and white one have lasted until 1953?
The Red, White and Blue STATE OF MAINE cars were not reefers, but were
boxcars - some of them insulated. The scheme started to be applied in
the early 1950's.

The BAR did not buy their first reefer until 1951. The first series 338
strong in 1/1953, #6000-6999, were ex-MDT reefers and were painted
yellow with black ends. The second series were the #7000-7856 which were
built by Pacific Car & Foundry - 500 in 1951-52 and another 357 in 1953.
These had yellow sides and ends. The #7000's were the ones rented to
PFE during the summer - the off-season for Aroostook County spuds.

Tim Gilbert

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> -->> NOTE EMAIL CHANGE <<--
Sterling, Massachusetts

 172581 - 172600 of 196824