Date   

Re: ratio of anthracite to bitumenous in New England

tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

ed_mines wrote:

Anyone have an idea as to the ratio of anthracite to bitumenous coal
in New England in the '40s?
Based upon data from MOODY's, I would estimate that 1941 Anthracite
receipts in New England were in the 5-6 million ton range (vs.
20,464,000 tons of Bituminous).

Or to put in in freight car terms how likely would it be for
anthracite region hoppers to be found in New England?
100%!

In an earlier message someone said that the UP was most likely to use
coal from the least expensive source.

How did that influence home purchase of cleaner burning anthracite?
I've seen photos of anthracite hoppers in Washington, D.C. How far
west anthracite was sold?
In the Fall of 1941, there were two RDG hoppers westbound carrying coal
(I presume Anthracite) between Green River WY and Montpelier ID destined
for a consignee in Vancouver WA.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Old Northwest!

Jim or Lisa Hayes <jim-and-lisa@...>
 

I grew up in Minnesota which was promoted at the time as "The Great
Northwest". Which seemed silly to me even as a teenager.

--
Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon


BAR Reefers(and more Bamberger)

Justin Kahn
 

At least not yet...
Jace Kahn
Mostly Fairbanks

A search turned up the photo but it was in Salt Lake City in July 1951 which puts it closer to California than Maine. The book, which probably no one on this list has is California Trolleys in Color Volume 1: San Diego & Los Angles by P. Allen Copeland (Morning Sun Books). On page 26 is a photo of Bamberger 550 pulling BAR 6717 wood reefer in blue and white (no potato). 550 was a former San Diego Electric locomotive the reason for the photo being in a California Trolley book.

Matt Herson
_________________________________________________________________
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BAR Reefer/Bamberger

Justin Kahn
 

Fascinating; the Bamberger is one of my favorite traction lines, perhaps because they had fairly extensive freight operations. Unless Shay objects strongly, I'd like to forward the relevant part of his message to the interurban list (and I may not be the only member there who'd like to know more of what he remembers).
Since I don't believe anyone else has mentioned it so far, I have an old Westbrook kit for one of the red/white/blue State of Maine insulated boxcars, probably dating at least from the late 1940's. I have been in no hurry to build it, however, as embossed card sides don't represent a plug door quite so well as they do with scribing for wood sides and cast door hardware.
Jace Kahn
Mostly Fairbanks

In 1948
they built a factory in Kaysville, Utah. As the business grew they
were unable to purchase enough Utah potatoes to keep up with demand.
Sometime between 1949 and 1952 they built a single car siding into
the factory and began supplementing the Utah potatoes with Maine
potatoes. A note in a local County history states that Clover Club
received Maine potatoes in wooden ice refers. My uncle who was a
freight and passenger motorman for the Bamberger at this time told
me that he remembers red, white and blue State of Maine insulated
boxcars being spotted at the plant.

The supplement of Maine potatoes usually began in the spring
depending on the availibility of the local crop and continued
through the summer. When this occurred the company would receive one
car a week. Clover Club seemed to think that this was a novel idea
and advertised the use of Maine potatoes.

This part of the Bamberger line was abandoned in January 1959 and
thus direct shipments to the factory ended at that time. In 1958
Clover Club may not have received many cars of potatoes as there
were less than 100 cars spotted along the Bamberger line in Davis
County during that year. While incomming coal traffic was dwindeling
because of the development of natural gas, Outgoing perishible
traffic was still strong in the County at this time meaning that
much of that 100 cars were outgoing. I don't have any records to
show exact break down but I do have a break down of how many cars
were spotted on team tracks versus at customer locations. The number
of cars on team tracks far surpassed the number of cars delivered to
customers. This was Bambergers arguement for abandonment as the
Union Pacific and Denver & Rio Grande Western parralleled the line
and had team tracks with in a mile or two of Bambergers. I don't
know what Clover Club did after the rail connection was removed.

Shay Stark



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Phospher Bronze Wire/Sheet Styrene

Justin Kahn
 

Before CMA was absorbed by Tichy (which I wasn't aware of until the matter was mentioned on the list), they used to sell 12" lengths of phosphor bronze in several diameters, shipped in nice recloseable tubes. I don't know whether Tichy now offers them. The California Scale folks, I believe, have bought out the Suydam line, which offered the corrugated tinned sheet for many years, as well as structure kits using it (I think I had an e-mail interchange with an owner a year or two ago in which he indicated their willingness to re-issue the O scale building kits from many years ago--good news for us large-scale folks).
Some of the O scale list members discussed large size sheets of styrene a while back, and it seems there are plastics suppliers who sell very large sheets indeed (4'x8', as I recall) much cheaper per unit than buying the Evergreen small sizes, where one is paying for the trimming and packaging. Another member mentioned that often advertising in storefronts is printed on styrene, and that the owner will often just give them away when they are no longer needed.
Jace Kahn
Mostly Fairbanks

--- In STMFC@..., "Brian J Carlson" <brian@b...> wrote:
Hello list, I looking to get some phosphor bronze wire for scratch
building.
I have been told it is better that typical brass wire. Can anyone
give me a source or two to find it..............


Cheapest place that will sell small quantities are mill suppliers.
As p.1847 MSC's Big Book < http://www.mscdirect.com >
or their competitors - e.g McMaster-Carr

I also need a large amount of sheet styrene to scratchbuild some
steel mill> buildings for my Steam era freight cars (required
content). .......................


Try corrugated tinned metal from California Scale Models - nothing
works likes metal for modelling same. Its infinitely better than
Walther's plastic building materials.

Similar to the steel siding used on older mill buildings, similar to
what Walthers uses in their Rolling Mill kit> > Brian J Carlson>
Peter Boylan
_________________________________________________________________


ratio of anthracite to bitumenous in New England

ed_mines
 

Anyone have an idea as to the ratio of anthracite to bitumenous coal
in New England in the '40s?

Or to put in in freight car terms how likely would it be for
anthracite region hoppers to be found in New England?

In an earlier message someone said that the UP was most likely to use
coal from the least expensive source.

How did that influence home purchase of cleaner burning anthracite?
I've seen photos of anthracite hoppers in Washington, D.C. How far
west anthracite was sold?

Ed Mines


Re: Midwest???????

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

I always figured the bounds of "the midwest" depended wholly upon the
question of whether you want to specify the great plains or not. Either
way, everything west of the 100th meridian is "the west" (tho every native
California I know who has an opinion on this has asserted the line is at
Reno but they don't know diddly-squat about anything east of there anyway).

Dave Nelson


Re: Midwest???????

Larry Lee <jlawrencelee@...>
 

BTW, are there more train sheds this size west on the Ol' Man River?
No, nor anywhere else to my knowledge.

Larry Lee
Auburn, AL


Re: Coastal Shipping vs. Rail (was Ratios)

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "englishintroy" <englij@...>

Tim, the salt coming into Boston probably is imported, but it's not
out of the question that some might be moving rail-barge from the
G&W-served mine in upstate NY.
It is imported. There's a story in the Boston Globe today about where the
salt is coming from, and a photo of a ship moving under the Tobin bridge to
the dumping grounds. The salt's from Chile.

The firm that owns the salt and is importing it is headquartered in Clarks
Summit, PA, an important location on the DL&W in the days prior to 1960 . .
. 8^)

SGL


Re: Coastal Shipping vs. Rail (was Ratios)

Jeff English
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@c...> wrote:
The rail haul to New England coastal cities is vastly more
expensive than
coastal shipping. Even today, commodities like cement, salt and
oil arrive
in New England by ship and some of it is transloaded to rail. The
salt may
be imported, but I think the oil comes from NJ-PA-DE and the
cement comes
from the Atlantic seaboard somewhere. A lot of anthracite was once
loaded
into ships in New Jersey and sent to New England -- even though
there were
at least three all-rail routes available.
Tim is correct for both the Steam Era and today. Bulk commodities
from upstate NY to NY City are mostly shipped by barge on the Hudson
River. There are very large cement plants between Albany and
Kingston which ship most of their product to the voracious NY
metropolitan market. Rail has trouble competing for this business
not only because of cost but also due to the short haul and
passenger-train prioroty in the metrolpoitan area.

Also, one of the largest salt mines in the world is located in
upstate NY (south of Rochester). This mine suffered a calamitous
collapse about ten years ago and a totally new mine has been
developed only a few miles away to tap the same salt deposit. While
this is a cash cow for Genesee & Wyoming Ry., the rail haul to NY
City is only as far as the Hudson River, where the salt is dumped
into barges for the last hundred or so miles. Among several such
points, a new environmentally-sound transfer facility was built in
Troy about four years ago to transfer salt from railcars to barges.
This traffic is helping to keep viable the Troy Branch (formerly a
secondary NYC main line but now a 7-mile industrial spur off the
passenger main through Rensselaer and Albany). In the fifties
(STMFC timeframe) many freight cars moved over this route, and it is
gratifying to see it still serving a useful purpose in the 21st
century.

Tim, the salt coming into Boston probably is imported, but it's not
out of the question that some might be moving rail-barge from the
G&W-served mine in upstate NY.

Jeff English
Troy, New York


boxcar loading of coal

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

In the current TRAINS magazine article about the Rio Grande, there's mention
of a "Rube Goldberg folding-chute contraption that unfolds into the corners
of boxcars to gently deliver lump coal into the car without breakage."

I sure wish they'd seen fit to illustrate that . . .

SGL


Re: Ratios (also C&O coal in the midwest &, now NewEngland & Florida)

tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Armand Premo wrote:

<< Virginian hoppers were extremely rare in this part of
New
England.
Tim Gilbert added:

Most of the "Pocahontas Coal" destined for New England was routed
via
Hampton Roads where it was loaded onto colliers.
Tim Gilbert
Richard Dermody asked:

Tim,

I know this was still the era of "cheap labor", but was it so cheap as
to
justify unloading hoppers to colliers and then reloading colliers to
hoppers
for the relatively short distance from the Virginias to New England?

Would be interested in seeing the numbers.
Richard,

In the early 1920's, the majority of both anthracite and bituminous
arrived in New England via Tidewater. By 1941, however, all of the
anthracite and a third of the bituminous arrived in New England via
all-rail; the improvements in rail service undertaken in the 1920's and
the scheduling and yard handling improvements of freight (as well as a
surplus of coal cars) made all-rail shipment from the anthracite fields
in NE PA and bituminous fields in Western PA and Northern WV more
cost-effective.

The U-Boat threat and diversion of coastal shipping into war time
service, however, created a problem of how New England would get their
coal. Included in an article on pages 994-1000 of the May 22, 1943 issue
of RAILWAY AGE was the following:

"The important task of hauling coal to New England was placed upon the
railways when colliers could no longer do the job. The crux of this
story is found in the following brief and simple figures:

BITUMINOUS COAL MOVED TO NEW ENGLAND From All Sources
1942 Tons 1941 Tons
Via Hampton Roads 8,227,406 12,960,451
Via N Atlantic Ports 3,567,510 468,947
All-Rail 11,406,835 7,035,985
TOTAL 23,201,751 20,464,483"

The change in the routing in terms of percentages were:

1942 1941
Via Hampton Roads 35.4% 63.3%
Via N Atlantic Ports 15.4% 2.3%
All-Rail 49.2% 34.4%
TOTAL 100.0% 100.0%

First of all, not all of New England coal receipts were reloaded into
hoppers; indeed, perhaps the largest consumer, Eastern Fuel & Gas in
Everett MA, had their own unloading facilities where Mystic SS Colliers
unloaded their Pocahontas Coal.

The problem in going completely to all-rail in 1942 was that the longer
round trip would have created more of a shortage of hoppers. As a stop
gap, hoppers from the Pocahontas fields were rerouted to the Jersey Side
of the Hudson, where the coal was dumped into barges which, in turn
sneaked up the coast using inland waterways such as Long Island Sound
and the Cape Cod Canal.

The estimated 1943 coal receipts in New England according to the article
were:

Via Hampton Roads 8,500,000 31.5%
Via N Atlantic Ports 4,500,000 16.7%
All-Rail 14,000,000 51.9%
TOTAL 27,000,000 100.0%

During the War, the US Maritime Commission had built the "Seam" Class of
Colliers. This class was turned over to private hands, and Pocahontas
coal continue to flow via Hampton Roads. Indeed, there are still some
waterside power plants which receive their coal via tidewater - the
generating station in Beverly MA is one example.

Hope this helps, Tim Gilbert


Re: Midwest???????

armprem
 

I am glad I live in New England,at least I know where I am. LOL
,ArmandPremo

----- Original Message -----
From: Manfred Lorenz <germanfred55@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 9:48 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Midwest???????


--- In STMFC@..., "h8fan" <jabutler@s...> wrote:
...
Then I flew across the U.S. in a plane and I decided that there is
really only the eastern and western U.S. and the Mississippi River
is the dividing line:)
__________________________________________________________

I was in St. Louis once and visited the huge train shed of Union
station. That was definitely on the western bank of the Mississippi
and had a definitely eastern look.

Must have been pretty busy in steam era freight car time. The tracks
crossing in front were still there. Were these passed by the freight
trains? Did the freight cars have to be reloaded there too?

BTW, are there more train sheds this size west on the Ol' Man River?

Twin Cities?

Manfred



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Re: Midwest???????

Manfred Lorenz
 

--- In STMFC@..., "h8fan" <jabutler@s...> wrote:
...
Then I flew across the U.S. in a plane and I decided that there is
really only the eastern and western U.S. and the Mississippi River
is the dividing line:)
__________________________________________________________

I was in St. Louis once and visited the huge train shed of Union
station. That was definitely on the western bank of the Mississippi
and had a definitely eastern look.

Must have been pretty busy in steam era freight car time. The tracks
crossing in front were still there. Were these passed by the freight
trains? Did the freight cars have to be reloaded there too?

BTW, are there more train sheds this size west on the Ol' Man River?

Twin Cities?

Manfred


Re: Midwest???????

Manfred Lorenz
 

--- In STMFC@..., MOFWCABOOSE@A... wrote:
A friend of mine once encountered a girl who thought all east-west
railroad
traffic was broken at the Mississippi River because (she thought)
all railroads
west of that river were narrow gauge!

John C. La Rue, Jr.
If you look into the history of many lines from the Missisippi that
was the case that they intended to keep costs down in using narrow
gauge. Which was an occasion of wishful thinking as the costs were
more related to light equipment everybody confuses with narrow gauge
han the gauge itself. Scams from before last century. For information
look into Hilton's Narrow Gauge book.

From the distance she looks at the tracks they must appear like
narrow gauge if she never got on the other side of the river.

Manfred


Old Northwest!

CBarkan@...
 

In a message dated 10/3/03 8:29:03 PM, Dick.Harley@... writes:

<< I grew up in Ohio and Indiana, which is definitely considered the
"Midwest" there.>>

Nah, that's the "Northwest" or later, the "old Northwest"!

<<Guess it all depends on where you grew up...>>

And WHEN!


Today everything between the Hudson and Conanifornia is "flyoverland". Those
of us on the ground occasionally wave! But thankfully the freight cars
continue to roll through.


Re: Ratios (also C&O coal in the midwest &, now New England & Florida)

Tim O'Connor
 

I know this was still the era of "cheap labor", but was it so cheap as to
justify unloading hoppers to colliers and then reloading colliers to hoppers
for the relatively short distance from the Virginias to New England?

Would be interested in seeing the numbers.

Richard Dermody

The rail haul to New England coastal cities is vastly more expensive than
coastal shipping. Even today, commodities like cement, salt and oil arrive
in New England by ship and some of it is transloaded to rail. The salt may
be imported, but I think the oil comes from NJ-PA-DE and the cement comes
from the Atlantic seaboard somewhere. A lot of anthracite was once loaded
into ships in New Jersey and sent to New England -- even though there were
at least three all-rail routes available.


Re: Ratios (also C&O coal in the midwest &, now New England & Florida)

Richard Dermody <ddermody@...>
 

Armand Premo wrote:

<< Virginian hoppers were extremely rare in this part of
New
England.
Most of the "Pocahontas Coal" destined for New England was routed via
Hampton Roads where it was loaded onto colliers.
Tim Gilbert
Tim,

I know this was still the era of "cheap labor", but was it so cheap as to
justify unloading hoppers to colliers and then reloading colliers to hoppers
for the relatively short distance from the Virginias to New England?

Would be interested in seeing the numbers.

Richard Dermody


Re: Reading 1937 AAR box cars?

baltimoreterminal <ktravers@...>
 

Tim/Jim
You can find a builder's photo of 103096 (1937) pn p.87 of RMC
11/92. Car has a 6' Creco door, lapseam roof, 10-0 IH, DNT 4/5
ends. There is further information in the article, which includes
model construction info. A follow up letter (to editor) appeared on
p.8 of RMC 1/93.

Travers Stavac, BaltimoreTerminal, 10-3-03

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@c...> wrote:

Jim, I don't recall them being discussed before. I have never
seen a picture of one. What do you mean by "Reading appearance"?
Do they have Wooten fireboxes or something? Perhaps flat panel
roofs? Taylor trucks?

They were renumbered into the 113000 series after 1959 or so.
Just in case someone comes across a later photo...




I'm curious as to why the following are omitted from the list of
1937 box cars:

READING Co. 103000 - 103299
Class XMv
Photo reference: Holton, James L. "THE READING RAILROAD: History
of a Coal Age Empire" V.2 p.218.

Although these cars have a distinctive "Reading appearance" , they
seem to fall into the parameters of 1937 box cars.

Jim Wolf


Re: Midwest???????

Ron Hildebrand <SteamFreight@...>
 

At 09:36 PM 10/3/2003 -0400, MOFWCABOOSE@... wrote:
A friend of mine once encountered a girl who thought all east-west railroad
traffic was broken at the Mississippi River because (she thought) all railroads
west of that river were narrow gauge!
Some of us could only wish... <g>

Ron Hildebrand
(Modeling the NE, but living in the West)

172601 - 172620 of 197001