Re: White wash or not to white wash...


In a message dated 11/11/03 2:40:53 AM, harper-brown@... writes:

<< Eric,

I assume you mean a FREIGHT CAR REVIEW LIST.

Jared Harper


Why limit it to freight cars? I would think any related product would be
fair game.


Re: Reefer ID

Bob Kutella

The photo of the string of reefers #2588, 2587, etc. shows a built
date of
2-35 (just past the man in the photo) and what appears to read:
2-14-35 G.A.C.C." in the lower left corner of the first reefer.
The above note could be RPKD for repacked; E.C. for location of East
Chicago (Indiana) where General American had a repair and service
facility; the date for date; and GACC for General American Car Co.

An interesting roof detail appears to be a 2x4 or such timber slid
under the roofwalks near each end. Could have had a purpose to keep
the open ice hatches from slamming into the roof (kind of like a

Bob Kutella

Re: Caboose Markings

Bob Kutella

--- In STMFC@..., "Michael Auf der Heide"
<maufderheide@y...> wrote:
Good afternoon group,

What markings were required on cabeese?

I have been involved in several caboose restorations at the Illinois
Railway Museum and as previous replies said, the owning and operating
railroad decided what was to be applied. But it was not so random as
one answer indicated. Each company prepared and issued painting and
lettering guidelines and the shop forces were expected to comply with
that drawing.

In a generic sense, in addition to the classic side view name,
(herald?), and number, very often the data included the date built,
perhaps the shop if it was homebuilt, weight, and pack or repack data
depending on if it was new or a later service date. Lubricator info
was common and air test data depending on era, as might be stenciled
on the air tanks, underbody, use of the IDT format, or more modern
consolidated stencils for COTS, etc. The step wells, treads could
have had safety warnings (Watch Your Step), and the ends of the car
usually had a small number over the end door, sometimes date and shop
when last painted (CNW was big on this feature), and other appropriate
notes such as "Oil fill (for stove heat) No 1 oil only" or other
warnings and slogans like the Illinois Central "Always Be Careful"

If you are trying to model a specific caboose or prototype railroad I
am sure you will get the often proferred advice to check on pictures
of your specific car or class of cars. But the research is not always
so easy - good luck in your quest. The good part is that you are
asking the right questions so you are more than half way to the finish

bob Kutella

Re: White wash or not to white wash...

Roger Miener <Roger.Miener@...>

Tony Thompson says ...

Exactly right.
Gee, Ted's starting to sound like a publisher <g>.
Or a lawyer ... oh, and yes, no <g>.

Roger Miener
at Tacoma WA

Re: Tichy's 7/8 ends (was worst part)

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>

Since there is life left in this subject, I'll add some more - Before Tichy;
before Westerfield; I made my own ends years ago for the CP cars using the
Accurail 7/8 ends. I went to the trouble of removing the ladder stiles and
modifying the bottom panel. All in all, I was happy with the part until I
fit it to a Tichy USRA SS car and found it was a little too narrow. I then
scraped the side rivets clean, and added new rivet strips of .005 styrene to
the edges. That brought it closer to the right width. I think it looks
better than the Tichy or the Westerfield part. I'll see if I can dig out
one and put a copy in the photos.

Rob Kirkham

FS: Moody's

Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>

Several transportation manuals from Moody's being sold by a public library.
Price is fair.

Dave Nelson

1. Moody's Manual of Investments American and Foreign Transportation by
Porter, John editor Moody's Investors Service 1952 VG hard cover 1955
edition 4to 1523 pages green boards with gold titling edge wear but clean
and tight. Spine binding is concave. Small date stamp on ffep. abc
(Keywords: railroads airlines shipping bus and truck lines)
The price of the book is US$ 40.00
Please reference the seller's book # 031110afr10-8 when ordering.

2. Moody's Manual of Investments American and Foreign Transportation by
Porter, John editor Moody's Investors Service 1952 VG hard cover 1952
edition 4to 1628 pages green boards with gold titling edge wear but clean
and tight. Small date stamp on ffep. abc (Keywords: railroads airlines
shipping bus and truck lines)
The price of the book is US$ 40.00
Please reference the seller's book # 031110afr09-8 when ordering.

3. Moody's Manual of Investments American and Foreign Transportation by
Porter, John editor Moody's Investors Service 1953 VG hard cover 1953
edition 4to 1567 pages green boards with gold titling edge wear but clean
and tight. Small date stamp on ffep. abc (Keywords: railroads airlines
shipping bus and truck lines)
The price of the book is US$ 40.00
Please reference the seller's book # 031110afr08-8 when ordering.

The seller is Friends of the Tucson-Pima Public Library
Tucson, AZ, U.S.A..

Re: Reefer ID

h81644 <H81644@...>

The Decker reefers that I have seen picture of before with the
lettering on the roof were 36 foot cars. Art's picture is for a 40
foot car. The reefers that Atlas is bring out for Deckers are also
36 ft. cars. Did this lettering scheme continue to the latter cars?


In STMFC@..., "Douglas Harding" <dharding@i...> wrote:
Joe take at look at Art Griffin's decal for the Decker reefer. He
says this
is taken from a photo which I have seen. His photo shows Deckers
in white on
the roof, but also shows the very large block lettering on the
side in

Re: White wash or not to white wash...


Marty McGuirk wrote:

"As someone (one of the few on this list, from what I can tell) who
has been on all three sides of the reader/magazine staff/manufacturer-
advertiser fence I could easily share some stories and a few facts on
this topic. And I was fully prepared to until someone -- at the end
of diatribe about ethics and honesty in reviews -- actually had the
gall to suggest that someone should make cast resin copies of the car
sides in question and sell them."

I wrote the post you're referring to. I meant in tongue in cheek. But
for arguments sake let's suppose I didn't.

Why should I have to pay for the part of the model that I can't use?

How about I offer resin sides using the car sides as a master to
anyone who wants to kitbash a model of it and send Trix a royalty
payment for the part of their kit I'm using. Say $5.00 for each pair
of car sides I make and sell.

If the maker is unethical enough to not to provide what he was
advertising, a model of car X, then why should he profit from
anything more than the part of it which he did actually provide?

How is receiving full payment for something you didn't deliver in any
way ethical? Why shouldn't you be paid only for what you actually did



Re: Reefer ID

Joe Binish <joebinish@...>

Naw, Rev. Harding you misunderstand. I meant this particular car looks to
me (please note: the oponion expressed here) like the lettering was added.
I too, have seen photos passed about by that Louie fan Propst that show this

E7s & Big Boys pulling frt cars

mike brock <brockm@...>

Steve Orth...apparently squirming a bit...responds to my:

Fortunately, I've read reviews on the E7 from those that DO have
credibility with me...Steve Orth...and I think I'll acquire one.

"Aaaaaaaaaaaaaack........... I'm not responsible for un-met expectations!!!"

Don't worry, Steve. I never actually buy anything on a recommendation. I might, however, "think" about acquiring one given your analysis and I'm gonna look closer this week. Each of us probably has our own hot buttons regarding models. One of mine with regard to locomotives pulling frt cars [ trickiness there ] is smooth low speed running. The Trix Big Boy could pull frt cars at about the best low speed of any engine I've seen. Regretfully, another hot button of mine is "reasonably" correct sized drivers on engines pulling frt cars so I opted not to purchase one. The fact that I have 6 brass Big Boys pulling frt cars had nothing to do with it <g>.

Mike Brock

Re: Reefer ID

Douglas Harding <dharding@...>

Joe take at look at Art Griffin's decal for the Decker reefer. He says this
is taken from a photo which I have seen. His photo shows Deckers in white on
the roof, but also shows the very large block lettering on the side in

Re: Evaluating Models...

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>

Charlie Vik's remarks on Model Eisenbahn's objective model reviews, and likens them to Higgins' reviews that were in the NMRA Bulletin for years.

Although I do not read a word of German, I have read enough English translations of these Model Eisenbahn reviews to recognize clearly that the Eisenbahn reviews are pretty thorough, and give the reader/modeler a LOT of useful information to sift through. Our modeling magazines could do worse than take note.

However, just like the dry-as-dust Higgins NMRA reviews of yore, one can also weary somewhat of this pure unvarnished "engineering" approach, and fervently wish for at least some leavening by the "arts and humanities" side of the coin- i.e. some thoughtful and introspective (but informed) opinion.

BTW, some of the reviewers from this list should receive kudos. Doug Harding's reviews in the RMC are always very readable, and they are thorough and instructive- and make one want to directly purchase and build just what he has reviewed- even though one may have no idea whatsoever how he or she is going to possibly use it!

Bill Darnaby's great review (for this list only) of the Sunshine Vinegar car kit from this past July was a masterpiece of such writing.

These writers' reviews gain instant credence because both know how to give the reader confidence that experienced and skillful railroad modelers are speaking to them.


Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento, CA

Re: White wash or not to white wash...

almabranch <harper-brown@...>

--- In STMFC@..., eabracher@a... wrote:
Anyone interested in starting a REVIEW LIST? Anyone couyld send in
a review
on their favorite kit for all to read.

I assume you mean a FREIGHT CAR REVIEW LIST.

Jared Harper

Re: Caboose Markings

Steven Delibert <STEVDEL@...>

Here in Brooklyn, where the home road is the "New York Ethnocentric",
and the plural form of caboose is "chabusim", the standards in the steam era
were pretty much the same as everywhere: None.
Chabusim almost never ran in any kind of interchange or interline
service, so they were exempt from almost all ARA or AAR standards. There
are loads of pictures of NYC cabooses (with which I am most familiar) with
practically nothing but a number on them; later on in the steam era, when
the radical PR crowd got hold of the car shop, there might be an "NYC", and
even in degenerate later days, an oval NYC herald, but this was definitely
ultra-progressive. (Some roads did get smart and paint "Frisco" in big,
bright letters all over the side, but they were in the clear minority.)
After that, it was up to the Division Master Maniac (Mechanic) what got
painted on -- most of them ultimately decided that a "repacked" date and a
couple of other informational stencils would be worth doing, but it pretty
much varied from division to division, much less railroad to railroad.
So modeling chabusim accurately is almost as hard as modeling steam
engines accurately: To be sure, you probably need contemporary photos from
your era of all sides and ends of a particular car, in order to be sure you
have the Master Mechanic's Whim of the Moment down just right.
What makes it fun, or makes you crazy, as you prefer . . .
Steve Delibert

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Auf der Heide" <maufderheide@...>
What markings were required on cabeese? Certainly re-pack information,
but I have some decal sets which include weight and the construction

Re: romance is over?

jaley <jaley@...>

On Nov 10, 10:10am, Ted Culotta wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] romance is over?
On Nov 10, 2003, at 9:59 AM, ed_mines wrote:

[...] making B-50-17 patterns for Jeff Aley and the other trivialities
of life take up a lot of time.
So now I'm a triviality? I've been called worse! :-) If it gets me a
B-50-17, then so be it!



P.S. Congrats on the upcoming new baby. When are y'all due?

Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

Re: White wash or not to white wash...

Greg Martin

Charlie Vlk writes...

RTR has hit Military Modelers as well.... Tamaiya (sp??) just released two
tanks that are built up and decorated with improvements such as metal tracks
at $300 a copy!!
Charlie Vlk

I would hardly consider this a modeler... The Military guys are going to be
introduced to a new trend ... collectors... I do believe these models are
actually more for the RC guys as these toys have RC in them. I am sure the guys
at the IPMS meets will have quite a time with them if they show up at an IPMS
meet because on criteria for entering the meet is that you have to have modeled
the item... No Die cast cars or planes welcome! To some Modelers still have
to model...

Greg Martin

Re: Reefer ID

Douglas Harding <dharding@...>

Regarding the Decker Reefer ID, this could get interesting:
In response to Richard Brennan: The loading area photo comes off a Decker
Co. photo flyer in the Mason City Public Library collection. I doubt it was
doctored. We know of at least three Decker paint schemes. The lettering in
the loading area photo closely resembles the scheme Atlas is putting on
their new meat reefer, and the dry transfer "deck2834" offered by Art
Griffin at He has a photo of the car and
says it dates from the 20's. What is missing in the photo is the roof
lettering. Could this be a fourth p/l scheme? The 3rd I know of is a dry
transfer offered by Clover House, which may be the 1st Decker p/l scheme. If
you read through the info offered by Gene Green the tank car lettering
matches the reporting marks in the ORER's.

John Greely wrote off line:
"I think that I have seen these Decker photos before via Clark Propst.
Anyway, having taken a closer look at the loading area slide, I believe that
the first car is a Mather 37 ft reefer. The identifying marks are the
composite end with I-beam steel braces and the notched roofing panels.
Start looking for Red Caboose Mather

Although I doubt that any of these cars lasted through the sale to Armour,
and playing "what if?", then the Red Caboose Mather cars decorated for
Armour make sense!

The string of new Decker reefers appear to be General American in style.
For a stand-in model, I would suggest the Accurail reefer reworked with a
straight center sill and new facia boards on the ends and sides and a power
hand brake."

In response to John, yes Clark found the photo of the reefer string. Later I
found the loading area photo and shared it with Clark for the first time at
Naperville. I find the Mather car idea interesting. It would certainly help
explain the different paint schemes and numbering series. What do others

I am less enthused about the Accurail car. As we well know on this list, it
is based on a Burlington fruit reefer and it is 40' long. Meat reefers, esp
in the 30's were 37-38' long. Could the Accurail car be shortened, and
replicate the cars in the string?

Doug Harding
Iowa Central Railroad


John & Kathy Martin <jmmklm@...>

Many loads were loaded on the Rock Island at Amarillo and were seen
regularly on the RI Sunbelt route to Memphis. Also regularly see were
"Atomic Trains" on the RI and SLSF, in which DODX square tank cars
transported assembled ordinance in a water bath between Ft Sill and I think
Huntsville. Always included was an L&N combine with guards who deployed when
the train stopped for crew changes, etc...
John M. Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Breyer [mailto:rbreyer@...]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:41 AM
To: STMFC@...

OK, it seems we've established that these cars were used before and during
WWII to provide the Navy with helium for their blimps, and after the war
various "rocket science" applications. Does anyone know where these cars
were loaded at? I've got a Howard Ameling photo from 1953, showing one of
these cars in Bloomington, Illinois (looks to be heading Eastbound, but I
haven't positively identified the track it's on to be sure).

I know that helium is a relatively inexpensive secondary product when
extracting natural gas. Did these cars regularly venture into the NG
of Illinois and Indiana, or is the photographing of this car a fluke?
the SP stock car it's coupled to!)

Ray Breyer

-----Original Message-----
From: jlawrencelee@... [mailto:jlawrencelee@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 11:30 AM
To: STMFC@...

> NASA's Stennis Space Center in, Louisiana does rocket engine testing,
> so they probably get them as well.

I'd forgotten about the use of helium to purge rocket fuel and oxidizer
tanks. This makes it possible that NASA's Marshall Center in Huntsville,
AL, got, and still may get, some, too, as it also tests rocket engines.
Between about 1946 and the formation of NASA in 1958, von Braun led rocket
and missile development at the Army's Redstone Arsenal. A portion of this
went to NASA, but RA is still active as well. Both the Redstone and
Marshall operations preceeded the Stennis Center.

Larry Lee
Auburn, AL

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Re: Digest Number 1560



Regarding product reviews:

This hobby has been inundated with products --from detail
parts to high-priced brass-- over the last 20 years.

We, at or near the end of the supply line, never see the
majority of them with the ever diminshing number of hobby shops. And only a very
small percentage are ever reviewed anywhere.

This hobby needs a Consumer Reports type of publication to
report objectively on new items--whether it be from Athearn or a one-man

Having been a writer and editor, be assured the
manufacturer needs a magazine like MR more than Kalmbach needs one advertiser's money.

MR's gutless local Chamber of Commerce tub-thumping went
out in the 1960s. Call it friendly advesary or ombudsman journalism, this hobby
needs an objective publication. If a negative review means ad
cancellation--fine. Over time the manufacturer either gets it right or goes out of business.
No loss.

And in fact, MR's product reviews--journalistic
prostitutiion-- are obsolete. People in this group certainly read other railroad model
boards and can obtain product judgments rather easily. While opinions don't
always agree, the reader is alerted to the good, bad, ugly, etc., as seen my
experienced modelers.

The only limitation is that not everyone has a computer.


Bangor, Maine

Re: Tichy's 7/8 ends (was worst part)

russpinchbeck <rpinchbeck@...>

OK, I'm a little late in responding to this. Since Naperville I've
been buried in work. Yes this part is a real mess for the CP 7/8 end.
The spacing from the top to the first stamping is completely wrong. It
becomes very apparent when you apply end lettering. Just as an aside,
Westerfield blew this part of the 7/8 end for CP's cars as well. Was
there another 7/8 end cofiguration or is this a classic example of
misinformation that was in a CBCyc that was made into a model?


Russ Pinchbeck
Calgary, Alberta

170001 - 170020 of 195614