Date   

Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

Shawn Beckert
 

Mike Auf der Heide asked:

How did the west coast get their bananas? Homegrown?
By boat from Costa Rica? T&NO/SP? Banana magic?
I think Banana Magic is something you get at a bar...

Actually the West got most if not all their shipments
of bananas from South American countries via the United
Fruit Steamship Company. Some Caribbean islands grew
bananas as well, but they were a much smaller source.
This applied to the Gulf and Atlantic ports as well. There
were other shippers, but United Fruit got to be the biggest
via the usual business methods of "merger and acquisition",
as Wall Street likes to put it so diplomatically.

There is a very good book on this subject with the title
of "Going Bananas: 100 Years of American Fruit Ships in
The Caribbean". Author is Mark H. Goldberg. Long time since
I read it, but IIRC it mentions the IC as one of the major
railroads involved with the banana traffic east of the Great
Divide. In the West, as Tony mentioned, banana ships would
dock at Los Angeles or San Francisco, and their cargoes would
be distributed across the western states via PE/SP/UP/ATSF.

Shawn Beckert


GM&O reefers

artrich999@...
 

Joe;
I think they might have been in a number series including 1955x.

--
Regards,
Art Richardson
Clinton, MS


Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Bannanas were all imported, virtually all in 9 states (ICC rail loading
data, 1950):

LA 306k tons 30.0%
AL 173k tons 16.9%
NY 170k tons 16.7%
NJ 124k tons 12.1%
MD 94k tons 9.2%
WA 49k tons 4.1%
CA 39k tons 3.8%
SC 34k tons 3.3%
PA 31k tons 3.0%

On the consumption side, 70% of all rail shipped bannanas went here:

IL 101k tons 11.3%
OH 88k tons 9.9%
NY 82k tons 9.2%
MI 67k tons 7.5%
PA 62k tons 6.9%
CA 54k tons 6.0%
TX 38k tons 4.2%
MN 34k tons 3.7%
WI 33k tons 3.6%
NJ 32k tons 3.6%
IN 29k tons 3.2%
IA 25k tons 2.7%

Of interest is only 80 tons of bannanas came out of Illinois by rail, which
came as a surprise as I figured there would be a lot of reshipping. If you
assume those bananas stayed put, the Illinois had a percapita consumption of
23 lbs, almost double the national figure.

Washington and Oregon received ~30k tons of fruit so either trucks
distributed the other 19k tons that were imported into the northwest or they
went elsewhere by rail. Moving south, California received 15k tons more
than their ports shipped by rail. Perhaps that's where a lot of the
Washington Bananas went.

On the east coast, New York and New Jersey shipped far more than they
received so clearly they exported tonnage, tho how much is impossible to
tell given there is no data for local consumption.

When I look at rail receipts as lbs per capita it shows very low numbers
across the south, suggesting that rail wasn't the preferred method of
delivery and/or lower consumption patterns. On this high end, it's
Illinois, Minnesota, Oregon, Ohio, Michigan -- all at least 60% higher than
the national average. Right after them is ND, WI, IA, NE; Sounds like the
major markets and distribution route was up the Mississippi River valley
into the upper midwest.

All the rest is open to speculation.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:shawn.beckert@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 11:38 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Banana Train Movements - East vs West


List,

I wonder if anyone has attempted to plot banana train
movements as far as who covered what territory, and if
there was any kind of overlap in service. IC obviously
got the lions share of business coming up from the Gulf,
and without the PFE book in front of me I'll guess that
SP-UP-CNW got the bulk of United Fruit's traffic out of
San Francisco going East. It would be kind of interesting
to find out if IC banana reefers interchanged onto the
western railroads and vice-versa. Or did everybody stay
in their respective service territories?

Shawn Beckert


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Re: Erie trains, cars of heels

Norman+Laraine Larkin <lono@...>
 

Haverhill, MA is a logical destination for that car on the B&M. It was one
of the large shoe mfg cities of NE.
Regards,
Norm Larkin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Schuyler G Larrabee" <SGL2@...>
To: "Steam Freight Cars List" <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Erie trains, cars of heels


If that car of heels was being sent to Brockton or some other south shore
(of Boston) town, it would have gone to Maybrook, and onto the NH at that
point, not to the D&H to Albany/Mechanicville. I don't think many shoe
manufacturers were served by the B&A, so probably wouldn't have gone to
the
NYC in Albany.

At least that's what logic tells me, but that's a trap, too!

SGL



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Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

golden1014
 

Brian,

I've never heard of Seaboard or ACL hauling a significant amount of
bananas, especially to IC from Florida points. However, Southern had
a "Banana Terminal" built specifically for the commodity in
Charleston, SC. So, there is some evidence that southeastern roads
had a share of the banana business, although I would assume it wasn't
much compared to IC.

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL

--- In STMFC@..., "Brian Chapman" <cornbeltroute@a...>
wrote:
I've uploaded an Iowa Division (1960) track profile that includes
East Dubuque: Photos folder, Banana.

Perhaps a former IC hand or someone else might be able to identify
the banana track. I'm at work on an N scale layout (set in 1966)
that
includes the East Dubuque-Galena Jct. double-track run, so this
track
I.D. would be a big help.

I grew up in Waterloo. Though as a young boy the CGW was my main
rail
squeeze, often I watched the IC hotshots from the vantage point of
the CGW bridge that spanned the east end of the IC division-point
yard.

Did bananas make it as far west on the Iowa Division as Waterloo,
or
were most interchanged at East Dubuque?

Also, as a kid I heard talk about bananas coming north on the IC
from
Florida points. The chat here seems to focus on banana movements
from
New Orleans north. Might someone provide illumination concerning
this? Perhaps Florida ports were steamship terminals for banana
shipments?

Thanks much,

Brian Chapman
Cedar Rapids, Iowa


---


Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

I don't know if any IC banana shipments ever went to the West Coast, but it
seems unlikely to me. There is a photo in volume 3 of Lloyd Stagner's "Santa
Fe in Color" series showing an IC reefer in an eastbound Santa Fe train
climbing Cajon Pass. I've assumed it got there because of a WWII order (that
wasn't rescinded until 1947!) requiring railroad terminals in the Midwest to
send empty RS-type reefers to California for loading.

Happy holidays,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
262-796-8776, ext. 461
Fax 262-796-1142
asperandeo@...


Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

Ray Breyer <rbreyer@...>
 

Funny that you guys are talking about this right now. Frank Hodina just
sent me the text of a few interchange sheets, between the IC and NKP in
Paxton, Illinois. They include two banana car movements:

5/12/55: IC 50419 Bananas from New Orleans to Bloomington, IL
5/12/55: ART 53026 Bananas from New Orleans to Lafayette, IN

Apparently, the interchange reports for Paxton and other IC locations are
sitting around in boxes at the ICHS' headquarters in Paxton. I'm heading
down there in January with a few guys to dig through the "files" and try to
get them organized. (and to see what cars were getting exchanged circa
1950).

Ray Breyer

-----Original Message-----
From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:shawn.beckert@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 11:38 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Banana Train Movements - East vs West

List,

I wonder if anyone has attempted to plot banana train
movements as far as who covered what territory, and if
there was any kind of overlap in service. IC obviously
got the lions share of business coming up from the Gulf,
and without the PFE book in front of me I'll guess that
SP-UP-CNW got the bulk of United Fruit's traffic out of
San Francisco going East. It would be kind of interesting
to find out if IC banana reefers interchanged onto the
western railroads and vice-versa. Or did everybody stay
in their respective service territories?

Shawn Beckert


IC Interchange Reports

Shawn Beckert
 

Ray Breyer wrote:

Apparently, the interchange reports for Paxton and
other locations are sitting around in boxes at the
ICHS' headquarters in Paxton. I'm heading down there
in January with a few guys to dig through the "files"
and try to get them organized. (and to see what cars
were getting exchanged circa 1950).
Ray,

When you're at Paxton in January, could you please check
to see if there are any interchange reports for the IC
at St. Louis? As I recall from an old Terminal Rail Road
Association map, the Illinois Central and Cotton Belt
yards sat right next to each other across the river in East
St. Louis. I'd be very interested to know how much interchange
went on between these two, though I know that TRRA switchers
did all the physical movement of cars around the St. Louis area.

Shawn Beckert


Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

Brian Chapman <cornbeltroute@...>
 

I've uploaded an Iowa Division (1960) track profile that includes
East Dubuque: Photos folder, Banana.

Perhaps a former IC hand or someone else might be able to identify
the banana track. I'm at work on an N scale layout (set in 1966) that
includes the East Dubuque-Galena Jct. double-track run, so this track
I.D. would be a big help.

I grew up in Waterloo. Though as a young boy the CGW was my main rail
squeeze, often I watched the IC hotshots from the vantage point of
the CGW bridge that spanned the east end of the IC division-point
yard.

Did bananas make it as far west on the Iowa Division as Waterloo, or
were most interchanged at East Dubuque?

Also, as a kid I heard talk about bananas coming north on the IC from
Florida points. The chat here seems to focus on banana movements from
New Orleans north. Might someone provide illumination concerning
this? Perhaps Florida ports were steamship terminals for banana
shipments?

Thanks much,

Brian Chapman
Cedar Rapids, Iowa


---


Re: Attaching side sheathing and floor boards in Single Sheathed box cars

thompson@...
 

Walter Clark asked:
I seem to remember reading somewhere (maybe here) that the side sheathing
of single sheathed box cars was attached with bolts, while the kits we
have, including resin, show these as rivet heads. Was the attachment done
with bolts?
Certainly the SP single-sheathed cars all show that the attachments
visible on the outside of the car, connecting sheathing to posts and
braces, are nuts on bolts. I'd assume these are carriage-bolt type items,
with heads on the inside to keep the car interior as smooth as possible.
I'd guess that other owners of such cars used the same method.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

thompson@...
 

Shawn Beckert said:
...without the PFE book in front of me I'll guess that
SP-UP-CNW got the bulk of United Fruit's traffic out of
San Francisco going East.
Yes, the San Francisco Banana Terminal (pictured in the book) was a block
away from SP's SF Freight Terminal. In LA, the PE handled banana trains up
the 4-track main from the Harbor into the yards in the city. I'd guess that
eastward bananas from LA would have moved over SP, ATSF, or UP, depending
on destination.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Banana Train Movements - East vs West

Shawn Beckert
 

List,

I wonder if anyone has attempted to plot banana train
movements as far as who covered what territory, and if
there was any kind of overlap in service. IC obviously
got the lions share of business coming up from the Gulf,
and without the PFE book in front of me I'll guess that
SP-UP-CNW got the bulk of United Fruit's traffic out of
San Francisco going East. It would be kind of interesting
to find out if IC banana reefers interchanged onto the
western railroads and vice-versa. Or did everybody stay
in their respective service territories?

Shawn Beckert


The Occasional Fishbelly Underframe

Justin Kahn
 

Thanks for all the helpfu responses; after I posted, I recalled that my Zimmer door-and-a half OB auto car had an accurate fishbelly (it took me a while to find out it was an SP prototype--MM drawings). It does seem that among the single-sheathed cars that did have fishbelly underframes, many seem to have been auto cars; is there perhaps a connection between the wider door openings and the need for a stiffer centersill?
Jace Kahn
Mostly Fairbanks

On Dec 2, 2003, at 11:24 AM, gene48@... wrote:

You can add the SP B-50-13 and -14 to the list of single sheathed cars
with fishbelly underframes.�� Frisco and SOO had cars with these
features.
Rob Adams also added:

prominent examples of single-sheathed composite box
cars with fishbelly center sills would include most of the
SS cars owned by the CB&Q.

For example...
XM-21/22/23 25/26 40' single door boxcars
XA-7/8 and 11 40' Automobile box cars.

Also...
The CN 40' single door cars that the original HO SS
Accurail kit is based upon.

Wabash SS Automobile cars and single door rebuilds

Off the top of my head, I will add:

-- CNJ
-- IC
-- UP
-- GN
Ted Culotta
_________________________________________________________________
Take advantage of our best MSN Dial-up offer of the year � six months @$9.95/month. Sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup


Re: IC Service on the Iowa Division

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Denny Anspach <danspach@m...> wrote:
The fascinating information about the blurring of craft
distinctions
in the operation of IC hot trains was totally interesting. How
common
would this have been on other railroads?

Although the IC and banana traffic has always seemed to be a
"natural", one does not naturally put the two together when
referring
to the Iowa Division. Am I mistaken that Jim Singer presented
clinics in Naperville and Cocoa Beach a year ago pointing out that
Dubuque, Iowa (a major point on the Iowa Division) was a major
banana
terminal?

When thinking of "hot" trains on the Iowa Division, we have
traditionally thought of the eastbound meat trains out of Omaha and
Sioux City. If there were now "hot" banana trains as well, these
would seem to have been all westbound.

Denny,

The IC, in the steam and early diesel period, did a good banana
interchange business with the CB&Q at East Dubuque. Cars were set-
out on the "banana" track at that location by the westbound IC trains
for the Q to pick up and forward to the Twin Cities and beyond. I
believe the track and its name still survives today. The business
lasted about ten years beyond the period that this group deals with.
I hired out as a brakeman at Freeport in 1960 and recall coming out
of Chicago on a westward trip a year or two later with 17 cars of E
Dubq bananas behind the engines.

In talking to the old heads over the years, everyone did work
together in the steam days with the head brakeman helping the fireman
take water and coal and sometimes helping clean the fire. The
fireman often lined switches when the brakeman was out of position.
Even after I went to work, when I had to drop off and make a cut
behind a set-out, the fireman would line switches ahead of the engine
if needed. The brakemen also assisted in set-out and picking up
diesel units enroute coupling the MU hoses and cables. I also spent
more time in the engineers seat than I would ever want an offical to
hear about. Several times running the engines for the entire run for
a sick engineer.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Ted Culotta's RMC articles

Norman+Laraine Larkin <lono@...>
 

The series of articles Ted has written for RMC, "Essential Freight Cars", is
a superb piece of work. Not only is the prototype info excellent, but the
day-to-day basic techniques of working with resin kits are presented simply
with great photo illustration. It is truly a worth-while series.
Congratulations and thanks.
Regards,
Norm Larkin


Re: Accurail 7100 box car

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Ed Mines wrote:
"Has anyone looked at the Accurail 7100 series box car as an accurate
model of the common CN box car? How's the height?"

Too tall. The CN 1929 SS cars were 8 ft 7 in IH, the Accurail car
is 9 ft IH - a very noticeable 5 inches.


"Did the CN cars have a horizontal brake wheel?"

Yes.


"The CN cars had a straight underframe (there was a big article with
plans in MM some time ago). Is there an styrene easy replacement?"

Simple - replace the fishbelly center sill with Evergreen 2x12 strip
between the bolsters.

BTW, another print reference is Stafford Swain's article in the June
1994 issue of Railmodel Journal.


Ben Hom


Re: Accurail 7100 box car

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Dec 4, 2003, at 9:55 AM, ed_mines wrote:

Has anyone looked at the Accurail 7100 series box car as an accurate
model of the common CN box car? How's the height? Did the CN cars
have a horizontal brake wheel?

The CN cars had a straight underframe (there was a big article with
plans in MM some time ago). Is there an styrene easy replacement?

Any other glaring discrepencies?

Dennis Storzak wrote that it's pretty accurate for CB&Q with a little
side sill modification. Has anyone done this? How does the height
match up for those cars? The Q seemed to have drips and drabs of many
progressively larger and more modern single sheathed cars. Were there
many that matched the Accurail car? Any glaring discrepencies?
Ed:

It is close to the IC's 176000 series box cars, except for the fact that the IC cars had 3/5 rather than the kit's 4/4 Dreadnaught ends. By making a straight center sill from styrene strip and adding appropriate details, it could be a credible stand in for the CN's '1929' single sheathed cars. It is not appropriate for CB&Q cars as the Burlington's preference was for an extra set of structural members on each side of the car - a glaring difference.

By the way, it is Storzek, with an 'e.'

Regards,
Ted Culotta


Accurail 7100 box car

ed_mines
 

Has anyone looked at the Accurail 7100 series box car as an accurate
model of the common CN box car? How's the height? Did the CN cars
have a horizontal brake wheel?

The CN cars had a straight underframe (there was a big article with
plans in MM some time ago). Is there an styrene easy replacement?

Any other glaring discrepencies?

Dennis Storzak wrote that it's pretty accurate for CB&Q with a little
side sill modification. Has anyone done this? How does the height
match up for those cars? The Q seemed to have drips and drabs of many
progressively larger and more modern single sheathed cars. Were there
many that matched the Accurail car? Any glaring discrepencies?

Ed Mines


Re: IC Service on the Iowa Division

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

Denny Anspach wrote:

"The fascinating information about the blurring of craft distinctions in the operation of IC hot trains was totally interesting. How common would this have been on other railroads?"

See Jack Elwood's story about firing the "Chief" on the Santa Fe's Los
Angeles Division in the "Steam Glory" special edition from "Classic Trains"
Magazine. The firemen of the road and helper engines pulled the pin and
lined the switch to quickly cut off the helper at Summit, Calif., rather
than waiting for the brakeman to come forward from the train. I've heard
Jack tell this story in person and he said the Santa Fe enginemen were more
concerned about staying on schedule than respecting craft distinctions.

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
262-796-8776, ext. 461
Fax 262-796-1142
asperandeo@...


Re: IC Service on the Iowa Division

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

The fascinating information about the blurring of craft distinctions in the operation of IC hot trains was totally interesting. How common would this have been on other railroads?

Although the IC and banana traffic has always seemed to be a "natural", one does not naturally put the two together when referring to the Iowa Division. Am I mistaken that Jim Singer presented clinics in Naperville and Cocoa Beach a year ago pointing out that Dubuque, Iowa (a major point on the Iowa Division) was a major banana terminal?

When thinking of "hot" trains on the Iowa Division, we have traditionally thought of the eastbound meat trains out of Omaha and Sioux City. If there were now "hot" banana trains as well, these would seem to have been all westbound.

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento

167321 - 167340 of 193477