Date   

Re: New York/New Jersey bananas

ljack70117@...
 

Please note Bananas are stacked on the floor of the car. You can not stack more than one layer high. They will crush the lower ones if you do. I do not remember what you call the whole stock. It had a special name. The small bunches you see in the store are called " A Hand". The Whole stock is about 4 1/2 feet long. They are heavy enough that when you pick them up you are glad they do not weight any more. Also the hand grows up. The stock grows down on the tree.
Also no one as answered my question: What is the hurry in moving the carload??

On Friday, December 5, 2003, at 10:38 AM, Michael Mang wrote:
Many roads in the Northeast had banana traffic, even the anthracite roads.
The Lackawanna picked up bananas in Hoboken, some from the NYC at Weehawken
and others right at the waterfront, and delivered them to Buffalo to the NKP
or Wabash. Fast freight HB-1 leaving Hoboken at 6:15 PM and arriving at
Buffalo at 7:45 AM was blocked specifically with the bananas on the rear of
the train.

In 1950, the DL&W carried 6,656 carloads of bananas, but only 72,820 tons.
That works out to about 11 tons of bananas per carload on average, showing
that even though a commodity may have been shipped in a car with a nominal
30-ton capacity, it may not have been loaded to the journal capacity on
every occasion.

Michael Mang
Thank you
Larry Jackman
I don't care who you are fat man. Get that sleigh and reindeer off my roof.


Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

rrfaned@... wrote:

Both Chiquita and Dole have large facilities in Gulfport. Their shops
bring
bananas from, I believe Costa Rica, on weekly schedule. The bananas
are in
containers which of off loaded onto container racks. It's interesting
to watch
the trucks pull up to the ship with an empty container and see the
ships
container handling equipment pickup the empty, put it on board, then
pickup a
loaded container, put it on the empty trailer and off the load goes to
the
departure area.
I believe this list is called Steam Era Freight Car or words to that
effect. I don't believe Gulfport was a port of entry for bananas until
well after 1960, nor were bananas containerized at that time.

Tim Gilbert


Re: New York/New Jersey bananas

tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

ed_mines wrote:

Erie leased some wood URTX reefers (both Walthers and Champ used to
sell decals) in the '30s and '40s.

There's a photo of 2 of the reefers in a book of photos taken by
Bernice Abbott. The cars are stenciled "for banana loading only".
I've only seen one other photo of these cars (but many models).

In his steam era book about Lehigh Valley Chuck Yungkurth mentioned
that they too had some banana business.
Ed,

Do you have any idea of where the LV and ERIE terminated their carloads
of bananas?

Tim Gilbert


Re: New York/New Jersey bananas

Michael Mang <mnmang@...>
 

Many roads in the Northeast had banana traffic, even the anthracite roads.
The Lackawanna picked up bananas in Hoboken, some from the NYC at Weehawken
and others right at the waterfront, and delivered them to Buffalo to the NKP
or Wabash. Fast freight HB-1 leaving Hoboken at 6:15 PM and arriving at
Buffalo at 7:45 AM was blocked specifically with the bananas on the rear of
the train.

In 1950, the DL&W carried 6,656 carloads of bananas, but only 72,820 tons.
That works out to about 11 tons of bananas per carload on average, showing
that even though a commodity may have been shipped in a car with a nominal
30-ton capacity, it may not have been loaded to the journal capacity on
every occasion.

Michael Mang


IC reefers

ed_mines
 

Where IC's own reefers used for banana loading? What else? Did these
reefers ever make it ot the east coast?

Champ sold decal sets for these cars that was Kelly green and their
diagram called our a green roof (I used Pullman green). Where these
colors accurate and if so in when? Walthers planbook #1 said the cars
had a red roof (don't know what color their decals were).

Ed Mines


New York/New Jersey bananas

ed_mines
 

Erie leased some wood URTX reefers (both Walthers and Champ used to
sell decals) in the '30s and '40s.

There's a photo of 2 of the reefers in a book of photos taken by
Bernice Abbott. The cars are stenciled "for banana loading only".
I've only seen one other photo of these cars (but many models).

In his steam era book about Lehigh Valley Chuck Yungkurth mentioned
that they too had some banana business.

Ed Mines


Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

skunkskunk2001 <fwj@...>
 

It is my understanding from various sources that Illinois Central
hauled a lot of bananas northbound on their mainline from the South.
Also, I've seen reported that they hauled complete trains on their
line to Indianapolis, Indiana.

Victor Baird
Fort Wayne, Indiana


Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Unlike most other fresh fruit & vegetables, the rail transport of
bananas was not subject to reconsignment and diversion practices because
the distribution of bananas was controlled after consolidation around
1900 by two corporations: - United Fruit and Standard Fruit, an arm of
the DiGiorgio Corporation. Because of this concentration, the means of
operation on land resembled the transport of meat more than with other
fresh fruit and vegetables.

As someone has already stated, the best work about the Banana Boats that
I know of is Mark Goldberg's GOING BANANAS (North American Maritime
Books, 1993). The emphasis of this book, however, is on cruising and the
design of the boats, and not the transport of bananas. Still, with the
application of 2+2=5 logic, it can be somewhat useful in the area of
ports of entry of bananas in the US. What follows will be my
understanding of markets served from those ports of entry starting with
the northeast.

BOSTON - In 1923, the B&M acquired 200 reefers to serve the Northern New
England, Eastern Canada & Detroit markets according to a piece in the
August 1929 B&M EMPLOYEES MAGAZINE. The bananas were offloaded into
reefers on station carfloats. The B&M lost this business in the 1930's,
but Boston remained a port of entry for bananas: - conclusion - trucks
replaced reefers, at least, for the short hauls.

NEW YORK - On page 391 of Stauffer's NYC's LATER POWER is a photo of
UF's boat Comayagua unloading at Pier 7 in Lower Manhattan into reefers
on a station car float. MDT #44390 was one of the reefers on the float.
From there, the float was hauled across to Weehawken NJ where it
dispatched onto Weehawken-Buffalo NYC Symbol WB-3 according to Kip
Farrington on page 178 of his RAILROADING FROM THE HEAD END (1943) - 400
carloads a month Farrington said.

ALBANY - In the late 1950's or 1960's, the port of entry was moved up
river to Albany which provided better access to the northeast market via
the New York Thruway system than from New York City. The move to Albany
ended whatever passenger traffic there was at least from New York.

PHILADELPHIA - While a port of entry, the market it served was probably
not that extensive due to the NYC's Weehawken trains providing service
to the north and the B&O's banana trains from Baltimore cutting off the
market to the West.

BALTIMORE - Starting on page 191 of Farrington's RAILROADING FROM THE
REAR END (1946) is a description of B&O's "Banana Specials" which served
Cumberland MD, Grafton WV, Fairmount WV, Clarksburg WV, Connellsville
PA, Wheeling WV, Morgantown WV, Uniontown PA and Pittsburgh. West of
Pittsburgh, cars for Akron, Cleveland, Toledo, Detroit, and Flint MI
were set out. The transit time from Baltimore to Chicago was 32 hours 45
minutes - 2nd morning arrival after leaving Baltimore at 8:00 PM.

CHARLESTON - I was unaware that it was a port of entry for bananas. In a
Fall 1946 Wheel Report, there was a 40-car block of reefers carrying
bananas proceeding northward from Monroe VA to Pot Yard outside
Washington. The reefers were a polyglot including ones by PFE, SFRD, IC,
FGEX, BREX, WFEX, ART & MDT. I had assumed that these reefers were
employed from either New Orleans or Mobile instead of from Baltimore
because of the shortage of banana boats right after WW II. The boats had
to be converted back to commercial service after the military employed
them during the War. Nothing yet has changed my mind about this
assumption.

MOBILE & NEW ORLEANS - The ports closest to the Caribbean and Central
American Banana plantations. Other than that, I have nothing more to add
to what others have said.

LOS ANGELES & SAN FRANCISCO - Boats arrived from the West Coast of
Central America. Other than that, nothing more to add.

SEATTLE (probably - whether boats ran the Columbia Bar is doubtful) -
Dave Nelson's 1950 data is probably for the Puget Sound.

Hope this helps, Tim Gilbert


Re: New York/New Jersey bananas

Guy Wilber
 

For What It's Worth:

The AAR's Transportation Report (1947) contained the following information
regarding bananas.

"In 1940 there were 52.4 million bunches imported (US) compared with the peak
of 66.7 million bunches in 1937. Wartime conditions caused sharp declines in
banana imports after 1939."

"About three-quarters of total imports in three recent peacetime years came
from Mexico, Honduras, Guatamala, Panama, and Cuba. From Hawaii and Puerto
Rico come small quantities -- less than 1 percent of the total supply."

"New Orleans and New York are by far the leading ports of entry, accounting
together for nearly half of total. Both these leaders have lost about
one-third of their former relative importance, while South Atlantic ports and Gulf
ports other than New Orleans have gained substantially. Increased imports from
Mexico caused larger entries via Laredo and El Paso."

"Almost half the bananas imported are consumed in or near the ports of entry.
Most shipments into the interior are made by rail, under procedures which
the railroads have developed to high efficiency. Close to one-third of rail
carlot shipments of bananas originate in Louisiana, and about one-sixth in New
York -- New Jersey. Alabama, Maryland, and Texas each originate close to
one-tenth, and Pennsylvania about one-sixteenth of total. Illinois, Ohio, and
Michigan terminate about one-third of all rail shipments. New York and
Pennsylvania divide one-seventh of total termination's. The remainders are widely
distributed over the country."


Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

Edward Dabler
 

In a message dated 12/4/03 9:35:11 PM Central Standard Time,
cvfanbratt@... writes:
I don't know how long they have been there (or if they are still there for
that matter...) But, Chiquita had/has a large pier and facility in Gulfport, MS
for the special banana ships. I've been told the bananas were put into huge
water tanks in the ships at something like 38 degrees F.


Both Chiquita and Dole have large facilities in Gulfport. Their shops bring
bananas from, I believe Costa Rica, on weekly schedule. The bananas are in
containers which of off loaded onto container racks. It's interesting to watch
the trucks pull up to the ship with an empty container and see the ships
container handling equipment pickup the empty, put it on board, then pickup a
loaded container, put it on the empty trailer and off the load goes to the
departure area.

Ed Dabler


FS: 1946 CBC

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Cheap, but the shipping might be heavier than the book.

Dave Nelson
-----------------------------
1. Car Builder's Cyclopedia of American Practice, 1946 Definitions and
typical illustrations of railroad and industrical cars, parts and equipment
cars built in America for export, shops and equipment employed in car
construction and repair by WRIGHT, Roy V. (Edit.), Illustrated by Illusts
New York: , 1946 hardback. Octavo. 1444pp Compiled for the Association of
American Railroads (Keywords: ILLUSTS)
The price of the book is US$ 90.00
Please reference the seller's book # 8555464 when ordering.

The seller is King Street Books
Newtown , Sydney, NSW, Australia, 2042.
<mailto:kingbook@...>


Re: MDT/GM&O Reefer

h81644 <H81644@...>
 

Richard,
Any idea of how far back that paint job would have been good and is
the R-40-23 a good starting point for an MDT reefer. I know the
Intermountain MDT Reefers that were released around 1995 in the
white paint were considered bogus.

George Walls




--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson
<rhendrickson@o...> wrote:
Hey can I piggy back on this? I would like a # for on of the MDT
steel side
reefers (you know one of the close to R-40-23s) leased to the
GM&O in
53.(Don't ask for much do I?) If anyone can point me to the
right place I
would appreciate it.
I have a photo of MDT 9326 painted white with red and blue sill
stripes and
GM&O heralds at Syracuse in 5/52.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Banana Train Movements - up the middle

Allen Rueter <allen@...>
 

On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 02:52:54PM -0800, Dave Nelson wrote:
Bannanas were all imported, virtually all in 9 states (ICC rail loading
data, 1950):

LA 306k tons 30.0%
8<

On the consumption side, 70% of all rail shipped bannanas went here:

IL 101k tons 11.3%

Of interest is only 80 tons of bannanas came out of Illinois by rail, which
came as a surprise as I figured there would be a lot of reshipping. If you
assume those bananas stayed put, the Illinois had a percapita consumption of
23 lbs, almost double the national figure.
I would think, StLouis/MO bound bannanas would unloaded in East StLouis,
but still thats alot of bannanas.

Would the Frisco, be handling bannanas to Kansas City, out of Mobil?


--
------
Allen P Rueter Phone: 314/935-6429 email allen :) artsci.wustl.edu


Re: Old files in the STMFC "Files" area

Tim O'Connor
 

Jeff, I no longer "own" any of the STMFC files even though I
posted some of them. You can delete the Sunshine models list,
because a much better list now exists on Ted's web site. In
fact you can delete anything from me (timoconnor or cf5250)
EXCEPT for Mont Switzer's Muncie&Western box cars document.
I think that is worth keeping available for new members.


Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

Richard Hendrickson
 

Hey can I piggy back on this? I would like a # for on of the MDT steel side
reefers (you know one of the close to R-40-23s) leased to the GM&O in
53.(Don't ask for much do I?) If anyone can point me to the right place I
would appreciate it.
I have a photo of MDT 9326 painted white with red and blue sill stripes and
GM&O heralds at Syracuse in 5/52.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: IC Service on the Iowa Division

ljack70117@...
 

On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 10:05 PM, Ted Schnepf wrote:

Hi Denny and List,

The IC banana trains into Dubuque were hot. These trains typically were
broken up between the CBQ, Milw, CGW and some cars continuing into Iowa on
the IC. The Milw would run a special train for as few as 7 cars. It had a
steamer, caboose and crew waiting for the IC to make the interchange so as
to expedite the movement northward.

ted
A question: What was the hurry on moving a car of Bananas? If you kept them at 45 degrees, they would not ripen.
We got a car load in once before we had room to unload it. So we kept it well iced with salt on the ice and held for a day and a half before unloading. We held it in the cold room at 45 degrees for an other 3 days and they were still green.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
I don't care who you are fat man. Get that sleigh and reindeer of my roof.


Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

Joe Binish <joebinish@...>
 

Hey can I piggy back on this? I would like a # for on of the MDT steel side
reefers (you know one of the close to R-40-23s) leased to the GM&O in
53.(Don't ask for much do I?) If anyone can point me to the right place I
would appreciate it.
TIA,
Joe Binish


Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

Jeff Lodge <cvfanbratt@...>
 

I don't know how long they have been there (or if they are still there for that matter...) But, Chiquita had/has a large pier and facility in Gulfport, MS for the special banana ships. I've been told the bananas were put into huge water tanks in the ships at something like 38 degrees F.

Like to see if anyone else has details. Especially the travel routes through the Northeast and into Eastern Canada. I am thinking hotshot rails had to beat trying to get a ship to an East Coast port.

Jeff Lodge
Freezing in Vermont



Brian Chapman <cornbeltroute@...> wrote:
I've uploaded an Iowa Division (1960) track profile that includes
East Dubuque: Photos folder, Banana.

Perhaps a former IC hand or someone else might be able to identify
the banana track. I'm at work on an N scale layout (set in 1966) that
includes the East Dubuque-Galena Jct. double-track run, so this track
I.D. would be a big help.

I grew up in Waterloo. Though as a young boy the CGW was my main rail
squeeze, often I watched the IC hotshots from the vantage point of
the CGW bridge that spanned the east end of the IC division-point
yard.

Did bananas make it as far west on the Iowa Division as Waterloo, or
were most interchanged at East Dubuque?

Also, as a kid I heard talk about bananas coming north on the IC from
Florida points. The chat here seems to focus on banana movements from
New Orleans north. Might someone provide illumination concerning
this? Perhaps Florida ports were steamship terminals for banana
shipments?

Thanks much,

Brian Chapman
Cedar Rapids, Iowa




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Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

Steven Delibert <STEVDEL@...>
 

On an NYC list, there was recently a discussion of the "banana house" at
Weehwaken, where ships were unloaded to a warehouse for movement to railroad
cars, which made up fairly hot "banana trains" up the West Shore to inland
NYC destinations, at least into the early 1960's. I would guess -- but
don't know -- that they would have back-loaded MDT reefers that came
downstate with NY State produce for the city.
That part of the business disappeared when the Hudson River and the Port
of Albany were set up (at your expense) to allow ocean-going ships to get to
Albany - the discussion didn't get to whether NYC took bananas west from
Albany after that, or whether it all went to trucks, but that was after our
era.
Steve Delibert


Re: IC Service on the Iowa Division

Ted Schnepf <railsunl@...>
 

Hi Denny and List,

The IC banana trains into Dubuque were hot. These trains typically were broken up between the CBQ, Milw, CGW and some cars continuing into Iowa on the IC. The Milw would run a special train for as few as 7 cars. It had a steamer, caboose and crew waiting for the IC to make the interchange so as to expedite the movement northward.

ted


At 10:48 AM 12/4/2003, you wrote:
The fascinating information about the blurring of craft distinctions
in the operation of IC hot trains was totally interesting. How common
would this have been on other railroads?

Although the IC and banana traffic has always seemed to be a
"natural", one does not naturally put the two together when referring
to the Iowa Division. Am I mistaken that Jim Singer presented
clinics in Naperville and Cocoa Beach a year ago pointing out that
Dubuque, Iowa (a major point on the Iowa Division) was a major banana
terminal?

When thinking of "hot" trains on the Iowa Division, we have
traditionally thought of the eastbound meat trains out of Omaha and
Sioux City. If there were now "hot" banana trains as well, these
would seem to have been all westbound.

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


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