Date   

Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

Joe Binish <joebinish@...>
 

Roger,
Thanks for the info. Now if we could only get a kit of these? I know there
are plans out there, Hmm where have all the kit makers gone?
Joe


Re: ICRR banana trains

ljack70117@...
 

On Friday, December 5, 2003, at 06:05 PM, Andy Sperandeo wrote:
distributors stored it in temperature-controlled ripening rooms to bring it
to the desired degree of ripeness.

This I do not agree with because the produce dealer that I worked for had three rooms.
The room I unloaded in was set to 45 degrees. The ripening room was at 45 degrees until we were ready to ripen, then set to 70. The third room was the cutting room and would be empty with in a few hours after raising the ripening room to 70 degree. Then the ripening became the cutting room. The old cutting room would be lowered to 45 degrees waiting for the next car.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
I don't care who you are fat man. Get that sleigh and reindeer off my roof.


FEC Rebuilt Insulated Boxcar

James F. Brewer <jfbrewer@...>
 

I am building a F&C 6411 FEC Ventilated Boxcar Rebuilt to Insulated Boxcar. Things were going rather smoothly until I got to the B end details. I am confused over what type of hand brake arrangement should be applied to this car. The instructions say (and I'm quoting....I couldn't make this up!)...

"Step 13. Add the brake platform to the car end. Use parts #11 and #5. The platform is a resin casting. Drill #74 hole through it to accommodate the brake staff. These cars used a geared club type hand brake. On the ventilated car this part is in the parts bag. On the rebuilt version it is Tichy part #32 on the brake sprue. Drill a #75 hole in the part, cement it to a length of wire and then add it to the car. Use Tichy part #22 on the "K" set or #23 on the AB sprue for bottom support. Cut a length of wire to form a brake staff. Cement the #14 brakewheel to the staff. Cut the #13 stemwinder support as in Fig 2. Cement it to the bottom of the end sill. If desired, form the center brakestaff support by cutting part #12 and cementing it in place. Add the "stemwinder" to the car body and secure with CA."

The only B end photo with the kit instructions is of the ventilated car which clearly shows the geared club type handbrake. However, the above instructions seemed to indicate that the geared club type handbrake AND a brakewheel with stemwinder were used. Is that correct?

There is no Fig. 2 in the instructions (in keeping with the mission statement of the STMFC I will not make any further comments!)

OR....did the cars rebuilt as insulated boxcars use just a stemwinder brakewheel? This is my guess and I presume would be the rather standard arrangement.

I'd appreciate any help and/or photos that might clear this up so I can finish this model. I searched Ted's web page but there were no pics of these cars.

Many thanks.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood, MD


Re: Banana Train Movements - East vs West

Roger Hinman <rhinman@...>
 

There's a Paul Dunn photo in the Richard Burg Collection showing MDT 9532 with a GM&O herald c 1953

Bob's Photo has MDT 9616 with GM&O in 1954 and MDT 9669 with GM&O in 1952

If one doesn't mind the wrong rivet pattern, wrong door hinges, wrong roof , wrong lenght, etc
the R-40-23 sorta looks like a steel reefer

Roger Hinman

On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

Hey can I piggy back on this? I would like a # for on of the MDT steel side
reefers (you know one of the close to R-40-23s) leased to the GM&O in
53.(Don't ask for much do I?) If anyone can point me to the right place I
would appreciate it.
I have a photo of MDT 9326 painted white with red and blue sill stripes and
GM&O heralds at Syracuse in 5/52.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



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Re: IC reefers

Roger Hinman <rhinman@...>
 

NRC was set up as a float of cars available to NP and IC since they had different seasonal needs
and this became a fairly nice business model. NRC was acquired as Tim states by MDT/NYC
in the late twenties. I've seen arguments whether MDT owned NRC or NYC did. In all the NYC Annual Reports, NRC is listed as a separate
company just as MDT is(until their merger in 1962)

In 1936, MDT moved its offices to Michigan Ave in Chicago and shared those offices (and managment team) with NRC. DSDX was
thrown into the mix in the early fifties. Sometime thereafter, IC began leasing MDT as well as NRC cars


Roger Hinman

On Friday, December 5, 2003, at 12:50 PM, tim gilbert wrote:

Andy,

According to the 1959 MOODY's TRANSPORTATION MANUAL, MDT acquired the
Northern Refrigerator Car Co. in January 1929. On January 8th, 1929, the
Northern Refrigerator Line, Inc. was incorporated in Delaware as the
successor of the Northern Refrigerator Car Co..

Hope this helps, Tim Gilbert

Andy Sperandeo wrote:

(snip)

I always
supposed
that Northern Refrigerator Line was a subsidiary of the IC, and its
offices
were on Michigan Ave. in Chicago.

I'd be glad to hear from someone who knows more about this.

Happy holidays,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
262-796-8776, ext. 461
Fax 262-796-1142
asperandeo@...
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Re: IC reefers

Roger Hinman <rhinman@...>
 

. I recall a light yellow, an odd sort of yellow/orange
mix perhaps with yellow dominating. I thought the ends--and perhaps the
roof--had a dark green tone to them.
. It seems that orange sides dominated in later years for cars
of various lessors. Am I just dreaming this, or were IC/MDT cars ever of
the hue I describe?

Your observations appear correct for the sides of IC/MDT cars although I've never heard
of any dark green thrown in except for the emblem. IC had a large fleet of cars of their own
and there's already another email floating around speculating on the amount of color variations

Roger Hinman

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Re: IC Reefers

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

In my "collection" of ancient HO Athearn metal cars and car kits are two IC reefers (identical model numbers- #402), but with two different car #'s - 50456, and 50234. Both have yellow sides and green lettering. However, the former car has black ends and a painted aluminum roof, hatches and running boards while the latter car has Oxide roof and ends.

Which scheme(s) is/are correct, or both?

To further confuse things , a Varney papersides reefer 50200 (R-16, 1942-90) has black ends and an oxide roof; a very early Varney metal reefer 51004 (R-27, 1950-51) has aluminum sides, ends, and roof, but with green lettering.

Additional Varney metal IC reefers (R-32, c. 1950-52) had MDT reporting marks AND livery.

Clear as a bell.

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento, CA


Re: ICRR banana trains

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

Here's more on the IC banana trains, from Terry McMahon's "Banana Traffic on
the Illinois Central Railroad" in the "Green Diamond."

* The rush was to get the bananas to the consumer in the preferred state of
ripeness, not too green and not too brown. The ripening process could be
slowed by controlling the temperature, but it couldn't be stopped without
damaging the value of the fruit.

* The schedule was 36-40 hours from New Orleans to Chicago, starting as soon
as the ship was completely unloaded. Cars were checked and re-iced (or
heated, if necessary), at Fulton, Ky., and the trains were due there 24
hours after the ship was unloaded.

* Trains were 80-100 cars depending on the size of the ship. All cars left
New Orleans billed to Fulton, and fruit company sales reps attempted to sell
and reconsign each carload before the train reached Fulton, where cars could
be diverted to St. Louis or Louisville. However, cars could still be
reconsigned north of Fulton.

* "Protective service" was provided to maintain the fruit in the cars at a
temperature of 52 to 58 degrees, with varying amounts of ice in the bunkers
or charcoal heaters in winter months. (The temperature of the fruit was
checked at Fulton, not just the temperature inside the car.) Ideally the
fruit reached the distributors before it was ready to sell, and the
distributors stored it in temperature-controlled ripening rooms to bring it
to the desired degree of ripeness.

* The major banana shippers through the Port of New Orleans were Standard
Fruit & Steamship Co., now Dole, and United Fruit Co., now Chiquita. When
United moved its operation to Gulfport, Miss., in 1967, banana traffic
through New Orleans dropped off sharply and continued to decline as far as
rail shipment was concerned.

Happy holidays,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
262-796-8776, ext. 461
Fax 262-796-1142
asperandeo@...


Re: Wegmann PFE R40-16 Reefers are here

Joe Binish <joebinish@...>
 


Re: New York/New Jersey bananas

Michael Mang <mnmang@...>
 

Proper storage temperature for green bananas is 56-58 degrees F, according
to the USDA. At that temperature, the fruit has an average storage life of
1-4 weeks. Compare this to grapes, with an average storage life of 50-100
days, or apples, with a storage life up to 6 months.

The transit time from the plantation in Central America, to the dock in New
York, in the 1940's and 1950's, could be between 1 and 2 weeks. Once at the
dock, the clock is ticking to get the fruit loaded onto a car and moved out,
to make sure the produce arrives in good condition.

As Andy points out, ripening bananas also produce ethylene gas, which
further speeds up the ripening process. Other than kiwifruit, a
non-steam-era product introduction, bananas are the only ethylene producer
which is also ethylene sensitive. Therefore, even though the ripening
process is slowed by cooling, it is not stopped, and the railroads needed to
get that commodity to it's intended destination. These were also years
before modified atmosphere packaging, refrigerated containers, and the
development of new varieties of fruits that can stand longer shipping times.

Michael Mang

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Carlson [mailto:midcentury@...]
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 3:46 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] New York/New Jersey bananas

Not all that simple.... Green bananas (never quite
sure when to stop the anananan) will stay green after
picked for awhile, but they won't stay green
indefinately. They will either ripen (helped along
with Propylene gas- the only plant hormone known to
exist as a gas in nature) or if left too chilled, turn
an ugly grey, followed by an even uglier black.
Grocers know not to delay ripening bananas by cooling
them, instead they open the boxes and tear off the
plastic to vent off the Propylene gas, giving another
24 hours or so of ripening delay.
-Andy Carlson "Yes I have no bananas-anybody want a
reefer???

Larry J. said....
Bananas... (y)ou never cool them again after they
ripen. I have never
seen a green one turn brown except one that is not
going to ripen but
then it has to be above 60 to do that.
So what is the hurry?
Thank you
Larry Jackman


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Re: WW II Orders (not Banana Movements)

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

Jerry's probably right. I hadn't looked up the date and wasn't sure off the
top of my head if it was late in '47 or early '48 that the order was
rescinded. It gave the Santa Fe (and probably PFE also) a lot of grief,
because under its provisions any RS was supposed to be as good as any other,
and foreign-road cars were sent west instead of the SFRDs the Santa Fe
wanted to get back. On the other had, it gives me an excuse to have more
foreign reefers on my 1947 layout might otherwise be justified.

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
262-796-8776, ext. 461
Fax 262-796-1142
asperandeo@...


Re: Why the hurry on perishables

Railroad353@...
 

The bananas were mostly gone before I went railroading, but I did encounter
another, related reason why railroads tried to move perishables fast. It was
not only product decay in transit but also customer risk of missing the best
market price at wholesale. Slow transit and uncertainty of delivery increased
the risk that the expected price might change for the worse. Price swings in
perishables can be huge, so this was a major customer concern. Concerns about
making market price may have led to perishable guarantees on bananas too;
others on the list may know for sure.

In 1970, I provided cost testimony for the ATSF in an ICC Investigation &
Supension Case, Vegetables and Melons Eastbound. By then the major eastbound
perishables carriers, UP, SP, and ATSF, were noticing that the rates on
perishables weren't high enough to justify replacement of the remaining ice cars with
mechanicals. To close at least a little of the cost gap, they sought a major
rate increase and, as an incentive, offered persishable guarantees. If the
traffic was late reaching the market, which, as I recall, was heavily on the East
Coast, the carriers owed them for the difference between the market price on
the perishables on the actual day of sale and the price on the day the traffic
was supposed to have been there under the guarantee.

The problem was that integrated food chains didn't buy or sell in wholesale
markets. They handled for their own account without brokers and therefore
couldn't take advantage of the guarantees, which required an arm-length buy/sell
transaction to establish a perishables claim. They said that this put them at
a competitive disadvantage, and the rates were suspended while a roomful of
lawyers and rate officers tried to figure out what to do. (The ICC at the time
was still very much in the business of using the railroads to help customers
who claimed they were disadvantaged. The ICC's assumption was that the
railroads would always make enough money to susidize all sorts of nice-sounding
objectives even if all this market-rigging hurt the railroads severely.)

I was one of the most junior people in the room. After listening for an hour
or so to a discussion that didn't seem to be getting anywhere, I stuck my
neck out and made a suggestion: If the shippers didn't want the higher rates
instituted and wanted to bicker the railroads to death over guarantees, why not
just tell them we wouldn't buy any more new reefers? I knew that, even with
the higher rates, the mechanicals were a really poor investment.

Up until then, Frank Kriebel, VP-Traffic of SP, had let his flunkies do most
of the talking, but at that point he unfolded his arms, leveled a finger at
me, and said that the SP had built the great agricultural economy of California
and regardless of rates would never desert agriculture. This was quite a
rousing speech. It let his guys call the shippers and tell them how the SP was
hanging in there for them, in contrast to the untrustworthy Santa Fe. Frank
Kriebel or no, though, the wretched economics of the mechanicals eventually
prevailed.

Although all this happened post-steam era, the rate officers in the room were
harking back to a time when perishable guarantees were common, and I am sure
there were many such guarantees in the steam era, when wholesale markets
probably accounted for much more of the perishables business than in later years
when independent grocers had lost out to grocery chains.

Harry Meislahn


Re: New York/New Jersey bananas

Andy Carlson
 

Not all that simple.... Green bananas (never quite
sure when to stop the anananan) will stay green after
picked for awhile, but they won't stay green
indefinately. They will either ripen (helped along
with Propylene gas- the only plant hormone known to
exist as a gas in nature) or if left too chilled, turn
an ugly grey, followed by an even uglier black.
Grocers know not to delay ripening bananas by cooling
them, instead they open the boxes and tear off the
plastic to vent off the Propylene gas, giving another
24 hours or so of ripening delay.
-Andy Carlson "Yes I have no bananas-anybody want a
reefer???

Larry J. said....

Bananas... (y)ou never cool them again after they
ripen. I have never
seen a green one turn brown except one that is not
going to ripen but
then it has to be above 60 to do that.
So what is the hurry?
Thank you
Larry Jackman


Re: ADMIN!!! STMFPH To Store More Photos and Files

Tim O'Connor
 

Richard, you can get to the files storage area of any Yahoo
group by using the URL form

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/<GROUPNAME>/files

So as long as you are subscribed, you can see and retrieve files.


Richard Hendrickson wrote

This seems like a good idea, Mike, but it's not clear to me how I can
either post or retrieve files from that site. Can you enlighten me?


Re: Banana Movements - WW II Orders

switchengines <jrs060@...>
 

Andy Sperandeo wrote: "I've assumed it got there because of a WWII
order (that wasn't rescinded until 1947!) requiring railroad
terminals in the Midwest to send empty RS-type reefers to California
for loading."
I think that this WW II order, the order allowing railroads to use
any owners refrigerator cars was not removed until the early months
of 1948. Perhaps Guy Wilber could help us with this information, as
it is of inportance to us who model the mid to late 1940's.
Cordially, Jerry Stewart
Chicago, Ill.


Re: ADMIN!!! STMFPH To Store More Photos and Files

Richard Hendrickson
 

This seems like a good idea, Mike, but it's not clear to me how I can
either post or retrieve files from that site. Can you enlighten me?

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Fastening wood sheathing

David Soderblom
 

If you stop to think for a moment, you realize that wood sheathing is going to have to be attached to steel with a cold fastener (i.e., a bolt), not a white-hot rivet. No rocket science. Yes, carriage bolts were used with heads of the inside for a smooth interior.

David Soderblom
Baltimore MD


David Soderblom
Operations and Data Management Division
Space Telescope Science Institute


Re: Wegmann PFE R40-16 Reefers are here

thompson@...
 

These remain at $22.00 each, plus shipping as follows:
1 car $3.85
2 cars $3.85
Andy, I will put a check in the mail for two cars, totalling $47.85. TIA.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Wegmann PFE R40-16 Reefers are here

Andy Carlson
 

It has been a 1/2 year since I posted a request for
reservations for the HO Terry Wegmann/Red Caboose PFE
R-40-16 reefer kits, and because of parts
non-availability problems, we had to postpone the
offering.

This time, I am announcing these cars after they have
been completed, and I am now accepting Payment for
these kits on a first come basis. Production is
limited to 150 kits, and probably these will not
become available again due to the problems of working
with 2 suppliers.

To those who have forgotten, or those who have not yet
learned, PFE built 3500 R-40-16 class reefers in the
early '40s, rebuilds from earlier all wood carbody
reefers. Unlike the R-40-18 rebuilds, these -16s
retained wooden ends, but like the -18s, these had
Stanray (Murphy) rectangular panel steel roofs
applied, along with Steel Preco Hatch covers.

According to sources in the railfan community (most
notably Msrs. Dick Harley and Tony Thompson), wood
carbody reefers dominated the PFE fleet in quantity,
steel cars not outnumbering our favorites until after
the Steam Era (the early 60s). These wood bodied cars
served the fleet until 1966 when the final retirements
eliminated wood PFE Reefers.

This kit is a hybrid- Terry Wegmann Machined roofs to
fit Red Caboose wood ends (also machined by Terry to
fit his steel roof), and Terry's Ice Hatch covers,
wood running board, preformed wire hatch railings, a
styrene parts sprue of much better cross-bearers to be
use on the Red Caboose "Bettendorf" underframe, some
styrene strips and instructions, all to be installed
on the Red Caboose R-30-13-9 undecorated wood PFE
Reefer Kit, which is also included. The modeler will
need to supply couplers, paint, and decals for
completion.

These remain at $22.00 each, plus shipping as follows:

1 car $3.85
2 cars $3.85
3 cars $4.95
4 cars $5.85
5 cars $6.50 Shipped Priority Mail
6 or more $7.95 Shipped either USPS or UPS

You may send payment to:

Andy Carlson
157 S Pueblo Ave.
Ojai CA 93023

Please allow for 2-3 weeks delivery.
thanks,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


test

John Swanson <dwlscbq@...>
 

Widdows 098 went KABOOM---now XP--loat address book
just a test to see if addresses are right
John

170621 - 170640 of 196832