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Re: Train Shed Cyclopedia

Shawn Beckert
 

Jeff Aley wrote, in part:

Isn't the magnitude of the problem much different
between military equipment (armor, aircraft, ships)
and freight cars. I mean, for a given piece of
armor, how many paint schemes were there? Three or
four? Now take, for example, a PS-1. Now we're
talking about a LOT of paint schemes. And what, 12
(or more?) different variations.
Actually there's more similarity than you might think.
Aircraft (say, a P-51) and armor (say, an M-3 tank)
changed in appearance as time went by and modifications
in design were incorporated into the production line.
Think of the FT, and compare how it looked next to the
F-9 went it went into production. As far as paint, colors
and variations of colors changed with time, theater of
service, and the different countries that owned that piece
of equipment.

One nice thing about the Squadron books is that they will
usually give you a line drawing of most, if not all, the
variations that a particular plane or tank had, as well
as a great many paint schemes. Much the same thing could
be done with the PS-1 boxcar. Not so much paint schemes, as
we can readily find photos for that, but design differences
such as doors, ends, brake gear, etc.

The idea is that instead of articles on the PS-1 appearing
in a continuing series of magazine issues, put that same kind
of information (with more detail) between two softbound covers
and include everything known to date about the car. So what if it
didn't have all the bits of information that might be floating
around out there - you could always do a second volume; Squadron
has certainly done that enough times.

Wouldn't it be nice, instead of having to search through half a
dozen magazines for info on the PS-1, to have everything known
to date about the car between two soft covers, in one place?

Shawn Beckert
Re: Train Shed Cyclopedias

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Also I'm not sure the other hobbies have something akin to an ORER to let
one track car series. (Okay, maybe something like Jane's Fighting Ships or
what - not my hobby, so I'm not sure - but certainly I would not think for
armour.) - John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Aley - GCD PE" <jaley@pcocd2.intel.com>
To: <STMFC@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Train Shed Cyclopedias


I don't know anything about military modeling or equipment, so let me know
if my assumptions are off-base.

Isn't the magnitude of the problem much different between military
equipment (armor, aircraft, ships) and freight cars. I mean, for a given
piece of armor, how many paint schemes were there? Three or four? Now
take, for example, a PS-1. Now we're talking about a LOT of paint
schemes. And what, 12 (or more?) different variations.

In addition, I'm guessing that there are a lot more different kinds of
freight cars to be covered. A lot of roads had cars built in their own
shops that aren't very similar to anyone else's car.

I would expect to see something about diesels long before we see such
books about freight cars, as the "diesel problem" is much more tractable.

Regards,

-Jeff



On Jan 11, 12:41pm, <ibs4421@commandnet.net> wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Train Shed Cyclopedias
Question: What is the Squadron series like? I've never modeled
anything
but railroads, so I'm not familiar with the data contained therein.

Jeff,
First, the line is from "A Freightcar Named Desire".

The Squadron "In Action" series is arranged thusly: Horizontal
format
softcover books dedicated to one particular subject, usually about 50
pages
in length, and LOADED with B&W photos with good, concise captions
beneath
each one detailing time, location, etc. inaddition to anything of
particular
interest to the modeler. In addition there are ususally several scale
drawings in three views and also some detailing certain areas of the
a/c,
armor, or ship in question that provide good detail for the modeler, in
addition to detail differences between certain production models. The
center spread consists of several renderings of the subject in profile,
but
in color to show color variations, paint schemes, etc.
--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

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Re: USRA DS Boxcars and "Clones"

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

Once, when I was in Pleasanton, I had dinner with a publisher of railroad
books. He indicated an interest in publishing the book. I think somebody
else at the table knew the Metcalfes and was going to contact them and see
if 1) the first UP book could be reprinted, and 2) if the second book
could be finished and printed.

I wonder what became of these discussions...

Regards,

-Jeff


On Jan 11, 11:36am, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

What we really need is Terry Metcalfe's second UP freight car book,
which
exists (substantially complete, I think) in MS form. His daughter, who
is
a publications professional, understandably wanted to complete it after
his
unfortunate and untimely death, but I understand she has now concluded
that
she lacks both the time and the RR knowledge to do so and there is some
prospect that, under the guidance of Terry's long-time friend and
collaborator Bill Metzger, it will eventually be published. Let's hope
so!

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



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-- End of excerpt from Richard Hendrickson


--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533
Re: Train Shed Cyclopedias

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

I don't know anything about military modeling or equipment, so let me know
if my assumptions are off-base.

Isn't the magnitude of the problem much different between military
equipment (armor, aircraft, ships) and freight cars. I mean, for a given
piece of armor, how many paint schemes were there? Three or four? Now
take, for example, a PS-1. Now we're talking about a LOT of paint
schemes. And what, 12 (or more?) different variations.

In addition, I'm guessing that there are a lot more different kinds of
freight cars to be covered. A lot of roads had cars built in their own
shops that aren't very similar to anyone else's car.

I would expect to see something about diesels long before we see such
books about freight cars, as the "diesel problem" is much more tractable.

Regards,

-Jeff



On Jan 11, 12:41pm, <ibs4421@commandnet.net> wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Train Shed Cyclopedias
Question: What is the Squadron series like? I've never modeled
anything
but railroads, so I'm not familiar with the data contained therein.

Jeff,
First, the line is from "A Freightcar Named Desire".

The Squadron "In Action" series is arranged thusly: Horizontal
format
softcover books dedicated to one particular subject, usually about 50
pages
in length, and LOADED with B&W photos with good, concise captions
beneath
each one detailing time, location, etc. inaddition to anything of
particular
interest to the modeler. In addition there are ususally several scale
drawings in three views and also some detailing certain areas of the
a/c,
armor, or ship in question that provide good detail for the modeler, in
addition to detail differences between certain production models. The
center spread consists of several renderings of the subject in profile,
but
in color to show color variations, paint schemes, etc.
--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533
Re: USRA DS Boxcars and "Clones"

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Ben - Good luck, but I don't think they are going to go to that length. (Of
course, I'd like to see the inward Murphy, maybe a 7/7, on their DS car, and
then I could make believe its close enough for Rutland).
But while on the subject of Accurail, I'd think that a more likely
possibility is
1) a steel rebuild four panel sides (total 9 if you count the door as a
"panel") with the bracketted bottom sill on the SS car, and
2) a 7 panel Howe truss version with both the composite and Murphy end
and wood and steel door. (In other words, a rehash of the Train Miniature
car.)
Visually these would be a more dramatic difference than the subtle end
change. - John

----- Original Message -----
From: <bhom3@home.com>
To: <STMFC@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 3:18 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: USRA DS Boxcars and "Clones"


Guys, thanks for the assist. I know that the UP cars are not USRA
derived (and it was the MM articles that prompted the question).
What I'm trying to do is to get a better picture of USRA DS "clones";
i.e., similar 40 ft DS XM. Built in the early 1920s, they share many
characteristics with the USRA design, with the major difference being
7-8 vice 5-5-5 Murphy ends. By the 7/50 ORER, the clones outnumbered
the remaining USRA allocated cars (USRA DS XM - 4676; "Clones",
including FEC VM and Wabash auto boxcar rebuilds - 6251). The UP
cars don't fit as neatly into this grouping, having 5-5-5 ends and
the proprietary underframes.

So to make a long story short, I'm trying to determine how close the
two groups of cars are to (a) see if simply substituting 7-8 Murphy
ends on an existing USRA DS XM kit is worth the effort as (b) the
feasibility of convincing Accurail to make a run of cars with the 7-8
ends as they did with their single sheathed cars.

Ben


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Re: Train Shed Cyclopedias

Shawn Beckert
 

Richard "Dawn Patrol" Hendrickson wrote:

...Like it or not, a whole lot more people are
interested in P-51s or even Westland Lysanders
(let's see how many people on this list recognize
that one!) than in PS-1's or R-40-23's.
Me, for one. Butt ugly airplane; for looks I'll take
the Hawker Sea Fury, since we're talking British
aircraft. Different function, of course.

Mandatory Freight Car Content (do we have that here?):
Remember the little booklets that Westside used to put
out on the prototype history of some of their brass
imports? What if someone were to take the same approach
to freight cars, say a small publication on Type 21 or
Type 27 tank cars, or the PS-1, since I mentioned it?

Surely you could sell enough of those amongst us purists
to make a profit from it?

Shawn Beckert
Re: USRA DS Boxcars and "Clones"

bhom3@...
 

Guys, thanks for the assist. I know that the UP cars are not USRA
derived (and it was the MM articles that prompted the question).
What I'm trying to do is to get a better picture of USRA DS "clones";
i.e., similar 40 ft DS XM. Built in the early 1920s, they share many
characteristics with the USRA design, with the major difference being
7-8 vice 5-5-5 Murphy ends. By the 7/50 ORER, the clones outnumbered
the remaining USRA allocated cars (USRA DS XM - 4676; "Clones",
including FEC VM and Wabash auto boxcar rebuilds - 6251). The UP
cars don't fit as neatly into this grouping, having 5-5-5 ends and
the proprietary underframes.

So to make a long story short, I'm trying to determine how close the
two groups of cars are to (a) see if simply substituting 7-8 Murphy
ends on an existing USRA DS XM kit is worth the effort as (b) the
feasibility of convincing Accurail to make a run of cars with the 7-8
ends as they did with their single sheathed cars.

Ben
Re: Train Shed Cyclopedias

ibs4421@...
 

What a cool, but strange a/c the Westland Lysander is. Ya gotta respect
the guys who were willing to fly them on insertions missions though.

Warren Dickinson
Elkton, Kentucky 42220
At the end of the former Guthrie&Elkton Branch, L&N

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@opendoor.com>
To: <STMFC@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Train Shed Cyclopedias


Warren (who doubtless has a last name, though he hasn't told us what it is
yet) wrote, about hypothetical RR equivalents of Squadron publications:

....Since there seems to be an undercurrent these days for more
prototypical
modeling, I think that a "single source" volume of information such as
these
would provide would be a viable thing. Just think of what subjects you
could decently covere in 50 pages of photos and drawings? Aside from
certain freight car designs, you could do some on the USRA steam locos, and
the first generation diesels.
The problem, of course, is sheer numbers. Like it or not, a whole lot more
people are interested in P-51s or even Westland Lysanders (let's see how
many people on this list recognize that one!) than in PS-1s or R-40-23s.
Sizeable circulation enables Squadron to sell their books at moderate
prices, but even breaking even would require comparable RR books to sell
for a lot more, which would further limit the size of their market. So I
don't think such publications are viable...at least, not yet.

If I hit a big Powerball one day, some of ya'll will find new jobs
working for me to produce these things. <G!>
Just say the word and I'll send you my resum�. How do you make a small
fortune in the model RR publishing business? You start with a large
fortune.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



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Re: Train Shed Cyclopedias

ibs4421@...
 

Col. Klink has now ordered Warren to "face The Wall" for ten hours.


We are going to get to you yet...the 1937 box cars were an AAR "Standard",
not ARA. 8^)
Re: Train Shed Cyclopedias

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Why kill a tree? I'm hoping that you go into a hobby store, look at the
available selections of a particular type of kit, then ask the owner to go
to our web site and hopefully you can find the most up to date information
about each version (vetted by the gurus on this list with both objective
information and subjective opinions) and this helps you make the choice
that's right for you. And maybe if the owner isn't too willing to have the
internet available to the customers, someday you pull out your wireless palm
whatever and call up the information. - John

----- Original Message -----
From: <ibs4421@commandnet.net>
To: <STMFC@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Train Shed Cyclopedias


Question: What is the Squadron series like? I've never modeled anything
but railroads, so I'm not familiar with the data contained therein.

Jeff,
First, the line is from "A Freightcar Named Desire".

The Squadron "In Action" series is arranged thusly: Horizontal
format
softcover books dedicated to one particular subject, usually about 50
pages
in length, and LOADED with B&W photos with good, concise captions beneath
each one detailing time, location, etc. inaddition to anything of
particular
interest to the modeler. In addition there are ususally several scale
drawings in three views and also some detailing certain areas of the a/c,
armor, or ship in question that provide good detail for the modeler, in
addition to detail differences between certain production models. The
center spread consists of several renderings of the subject in profile,
but
in color to show color variations, paint schemes, etc.
In my imagined "more perfect world" if these were available for steam
era freight cars, the following would happen, as this is what used to
happen
when I built scale models of other subjects:
I would arrive at my hobby shop of choice with money in hand to
purchase a model. OK, so today I'm in a tank car mood, so I stroll on
down
the aisle, and there are some undec. P2K 8,000 gal. tank cars. (Hey! I
said
it was my perfect world, OK?) I pick up a couple, and then wind my way
over to the magazine & book section. Ahh!, there they are, the new
Hendrickson/Nehrich "In Service" series of horizontal format books on
steam
era freight cars. I spin the carousel, and there's the one I want, "Type
21
Tank Cars In Service", and there's a cool painting on the front of a
Shippers Car Line 8K Tank Car sitting in a freight yard w/ a switcher
about
to couple on to it. There are two more paintings on the back with
captions
each showing a Type 21 Tank Car with different reproting marks or paint
schemes. thumbing through it I notice that it is chock full of B&W photos
of these cars doing what they do best, and covering most of the different
reporting marks and paint schemes throughout their service life. There
are
little tech. drawings all through it showing the different little
apputerenances like the plumbing, brakes systems, etc. that were applied
to
these cars over time. Yep, just what I need to model a prototypically
correct model in one volume. After purchasing these items, I hop in my
car
and head home listening to cool bluegrass music about railroads.
Since there seems to be an undercurrent these days for more
prototypical
modeling, I think that a "single source" volume of information such as
these
would provide would be a viable thing. Just think of what subjects you
could decently covere in 50 pages of photos and drawings? Aside from
certain freight car designs, you could do some on the USRA steam locos,
and
the first generation diesels.
If I hit a big Powerball one day, some of ya'll will find new jobs
working for me to produce these things. <G!>

Warren


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Re: Train Shed Cyclopedias

Richard Hendrickson
 

Warren (who doubtless has a last name, though he hasn't told us what it is
yet) wrote, about hypothetical RR equivalents of Squadron publications:

....Since there seems to be an undercurrent these days for more prototypical
modeling, I think that a "single source" volume of information such as these
would provide would be a viable thing. Just think of what subjects you
could decently covere in 50 pages of photos and drawings? Aside from
certain freight car designs, you could do some on the USRA steam locos, and
the first generation diesels.
The problem, of course, is sheer numbers. Like it or not, a whole lot more
people are interested in P-51s or even Westland Lysanders (let's see how
many people on this list recognize that one!) than in PS-1s or R-40-23s.
Sizeable circulation enables Squadron to sell their books at moderate
prices, but even breaking even would require comparable RR books to sell
for a lot more, which would further limit the size of their market. So I
don't think such publications are viable...at least, not yet.

If I hit a big Powerball one day, some of ya'll will find new jobs
working for me to produce these things. <G!>
Just say the word and I'll send you my resumé. How do you make a small
fortune in the model RR publishing business? You start with a large
fortune.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520
Re: RPA?

ibs4421@...
 

Oh, ok Richard. I see now. We used to do the same thing at living history
events when we'd see the mainstreamers/farbs. I got everybody saying "If we
an't pissin' 'em off, we must not be doing something right". In this case
it would be "doing something prototypically" I suppose.

Warren (aka Dullard Boy)
Re: USRA DS Boxcars and "Clones"

Richard Hendrickson
 


And Ed Workman replied:

A succinct and accurate response, but it doesn't answer Ben's question.

Yes well, I was trying to gently point out they weren't USRA based.
Mission gently accomplished, Ed.

Might want to check Mainline Modeler too, IIRC there have been a couple of
articles on the -11 or -13. Was it an -11 that Thornton Waite found the body
of?
What we really need is Terry Metcalfe's second UP freight car book, which
exists (substantially complete, I think) in MS form. His daughter, who is
a publications professional, understandably wanted to complete it after his
unfortunate and untimely death, but I understand she has now concluded that
she lacks both the time and the RR knowledge to do so and there is some
prospect that, under the guidance of Terry's long-time friend and
collaborator Bill Metzger, it will eventually be published. Let's hope so!

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520
Re: Tank car parts

Richard Hendrickson
 

--- In STMFC@egroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:08:17 -0800 "Jon Miller" <atsf@i...> writes:
Byron,
What ever happen to that tank car frame?

Jon, you really know how to hurt a guy.

To answer your question though, it's in a box right next to the
started
patterns for the Pennsy X-23.
Well, Byron, we assume you know what the road to hell is paved with.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520
What the heck is going on around here? First we get Byron's messages
re: Train Shed Cyclopedias that are not merely polite, but actually
nice; now we have Richard being an RPA! Have their email accounts
somehow become crossed???
Jeff, does Byron deserve it or what? Anyway, I figure one of the reasons
we started this list is so we could could indulge in some occasional (and
good humored) off-topic flaming without being banished to Outer Mongolia by
brother Hosker.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520
Re: RPA?

Richard Hendrickson
 

Gize,
You are dealing with "Dullard Boy" hee as the Mrs. fondly calls me
at times. What does RPA mean? If I am called an RPA should I belt the
guy, or say thank you?

It's an inside joke, Warren. No reason you should know what an RPA is.
But the answer to your question is, both. Say thank you as you belt him in
the mouth.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520
MDC PS-2's

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

I've just started work on the MDC PS-2 covered hopper section of our web
site, by listing all the variations MDC is currently producing.
http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/images/rolling-stock/Kits/MDC-LO.html#LO

This was prompted by Richard's comments about Halliburton's not having any
PS-2's. If any of you scan the list and see a version where the road never
had a PS-2, that would save me a lot of looking. (It is so hard to make a
determination like that, to make sure on a big road you aren't missing
something. Especially where at this point there aren't any images for these
cars on the MDC site and so I can't go chase down car numbers.
(Yes, the model is clunky, but if the paint scheme itself is also not
proper, that's a double whammy.)
Thanks - John Nehrich
Re: RPA?

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Gee, an easy one. Royal Pain (in the) A**!

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS
Re: Tank car parts

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard,
Another tank question, P2K 10K UTLX. It's date is '47 which I will back
date to '37.
Here you're in the realm of speculation. UTLX bought no 10K AC&F Type 21s
new; its cars of this type were acquired second-hand, and the UTLX entries
in the ORER are so sketchy that it's impossible to say when they were
acquired with any certainty. A lot of them came in the early 1930s as
various private owners (e.g., Skelly Oil) decided to unload their tank car
fleets and lease the cars back from UTL, but some came to the UTLX fleet as
late as the 1960s, when the Sinclair fleet went to UTL. I'm sure UTL owned
some 10K AC&F Type 21s by the late 1930s but I can only guess at what their
numbers may have been.

Anyway, the prototype cars were delivered with ARA cast steel trucks with
spring planks and would certainly have retained those trucks through 1941
(in fact, probably until the cars were retired). The closest HO scale truck
is the Accurail "Bettendorf" truck.<
Is this a generic statement for all the P2K 10K cars. Good thing I
bought a mess of those Accurail trucks on ebay<G>.
No. Some 10K AC&F Type 21s got cast steel trucks of various types, but
many were delivered with arch bar trucks and, in general, tank car owners
delayed replacing them until the mid-'41 deadline was almost upon them.
And when they finally did, a variety of cast steel trucks were applied,
though many were of the type represented by the Accurail truck. So it's
difficult to generalize.

it's likely that in 1941 most of the DX cars still had KC brakes<
Would this statement apply to all or do we need to go on a owner by
owner basis.
Generally true, though the major leasing companies like UTL were more
likely to make the conversion to ABs than private owners. Still, I'd say
that very few '20s vintage tank cars had been retrofitted with AB brakes by
1941.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520
Re: Train Shed Cyclopedias

ibs4421@...
 

"P-51 Walk Around" and "F-15 Walk Around" showing nothing but
detail photos of these birds. Imagine if we had a "PS-1 Walk
Around" or an "R-40-23 Walk Around" to browse through!

Yes! the "Walk Around" series is really nice. Very, very detail oriented.
LOL, my son has been into them since he could talk. Made his Mom read him
"P-40 In Action for a bedtime story one night. He's into railroads now too.
He would make us read "1937 ARA Boxcars In Service" if there was such a
thing.
Seriously though, I really think someone shoud consider doing this for
railroad modelers. At one time the a/c and armor guys just built what ever
came along without questioning the accuracy like a lot of RR modelers still
do. When Squadron started putting these things out in the early 70's, scale
plastic modeling began to change, and so did the manufacturers efforts.
Starting in the 80's you started seeing much more accurate models coming
out. Of course the big difference is scale modelers ALL want to build
something, it's the whole reason for their existence. With us, building a
prototypically correct freight car is more often thatn not a means to
another end. A lot of folks in the model RR community want stuff as ready
to run as possible. Except fo course, for us!

Warren
RPA?

ibs4421@...
 

Gize,
You are dealing with "Dullard Boy" hee as the Mrs. fondly calls me at times. What does RPA mean? If I am called an RPA should I belt the guy, or say thank you?

Trying To Catch On Quick,

Warren
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